Homosexuals Come Home...we miss you....

[CopticChristian]

The Catechism of the OHCAC states that Homosexuality is disordered based on Tradition and Sacred Scripture. The Church welcomes all. People that have Homosexual tendencies are welcome as well. What is Social Justice? It is as follows…

To follow the command to “love one another as I have loved you”.

To enable everyone to enter into a relationship with Christ in such a way, so that everyone can come to know Christ in the same way that the Father knows the Son.

If we think about this for a moment, it becomes clear. If our basic human needs are met, that is to say that if we are not concerned with obtaining food, clothing, shelter etc., then we are better able to enter into a closer relationship with Christ.

These are the elements of Social Justice that require all Catholics to follow…

1.SOLIDARITY
Living as though other people and living things matter. Examples of this would be:
FASTING in solidarity with the hungry, the oppressed etc
LIVING SIMPLY. Do I really need all those gadgets coming out in the stores? Recycling where you can; being a good steward of all our natural resources and of our planet that God has given us.
PRAYING for the poor, the homeless,for an end to sweatshops,etc.
The Goals of Social Justice and Parish Outreach are the same:

2.EDUCATION
We are obligated to educate ourselves and others about social justice. Read all you can about the subject. Study all you can about all the social issues facing us in the world today. Spread the word about these issues. Examples :Global Warming, the natural disasters, sweatshops, the death penalty, opressed and persecuted Christians in the Sudan etc. …everthing!

3.COMMUNITY ORGANIZING
Get involved in the community! Join or start a food pantry. Start a neighborhood watch program if one is needed. Start or join a group in your parish that studies the issues of the community/world and decides what can be done about the problems facing us. Start a volunteer voter registration group. Organize the community in consolidating the efforts of giving its help to the poor. Join Habitat for Humanity etc. etc. …Just do it!

4.ADVOCACY
This is giving a voice to those who have no voice, that is, the poor, the sick, the shut in, the unborn, the dying, the disadvantaged, the immigrants, those imprisoned, the homeless, racial minorities etc. We are called to speak out! Write a letter to the editor, join a march, call your elected officials and let them know how you feel. Very often legislation gets passed to the disadvantage of many, because the elected official simply didn’t know how people feel about the subject. This is because no one bothered to call!

So many threads post controversial attempts to change the mind concerning Same Sex Marriage, Homosexual acts…

This thread takes the premise that I want all people, homosexuals of any kind to learn that Jesus loves you and so do I. Come home…you are no different than the Prodigal Son…we welcome you. I cannot and will not accept thoughts contrary to Church teaching.

I ask all who want our brothers and sisters to come home to tell them that you care, tell them that they have a home…educate them that the “gay” lifestyle is not healthy physically or mentally…

Give them the Solidarity that we have, provide them the education that they need, organize on this thread and elsewhere and advocate for their return home…this is true Social Justice…

 

[Seeker1961]

I appreciate this approach. Reaching ou with love was what saved me, and I know it can save others.

I actually “came out” to my confessor when I was in school. I knew I was different, back then there was no “gay rights” movement, Ellen DeGeneres is only a couple years older than I am so she certainly wasn’t an influence. If there were gay people in my community I sure didn’t know it. I had faithful parents and went to a good conservative school. I didn’t even know there was a word for what I was feeling.

Thankfully, my Confessor did. He knew what was happening and he knew how to help me and it was by FIRST telling me that I was not evil. Part of my “penance” was to look in the mirror every day and remind myself that I was a child of God and He loved me no matter what. I could do nothing to make Him love me more or less. Only after I was convinced of that love did we move on to what my attraction meant in regard to the teachings of the Church. Because of his caring attitude I was able to learn how to draw on God’s grace to live a life that will be pleasing to Him. Even during the time I was away from the Church I did not break that commitment. I sinned in other ways certainly, but I never renounced my goal to live my sexual life according to Church teaching.

Now, I certainly haven’t stopped struggling with sin, and if we’re really honest none of us has. We are all failing every day, but what matters is that we remain confident in Christ’s love for us. That love will give us all the strength to start over again every day to defeat whatever sin we struggle with.

 

[CopticChristian]

I appreciate this approach. Reaching ou with love was what saved me, and I know it can save others.

I actually “came out” to my confessor when I was in school. I knew I was different, back then there was no “gay rights” movement, Ellen DeGeneres is only a couple years older than I am so she certainly wasn’t an influence. If there were gay people in my community I sure didn’t know it. I had faithful parents and went to a good conservative school. I didn’t even know there was a word for what I was feeling.

Thankfully, my Confessor did. He knew what was happening and he knew how to help me and it was by FIRST telling me that I was not evil. Part of my “penance” was to look in the mirror every day and remind myself that I was a child of God and He loved me no matter what. I could do nothing to make Him love me more or less. Only after I was convinced of that love did we move on to what my attraction meant in regard to the teachings of the Church. Because of his caring attitude I was able to learn how to draw on God’s grace to live a life that will be pleasing to Him. Even during the time I was away from the Church I did not break that commitment. I sinned in other ways certainly, but I never renounced my goal to live my sexual life according to Church teaching.

Now, I certainly haven’t stopped struggling with sin, and if we’re really honest none of us has. We are all failing every day, but what matters is that we remain confident in Christ’s love for us. That love will give us all the strength to start over again every day to defeat whatever sin we struggle with.

Seeker,

I struggle daily. Welcome to the club. See what love the Father has that he calls us to be children of God and so we are…I would ask every one including those that struggle with homosexuality to look daily in the mirror as you have…God did not make no junk and He wants us to come home…

 

[Crescentinus]

This thread deserves a .

 

[ccmnxc]

Though I like the nice argument every one in awhile, this thread is a breath of fresh air. There is no fighting about who’s right and why. It is just a plea to turn to God and find love there.

 

[Seeker1961]

Though I like the nice argument every one in awhile, this thread is a breath of fresh air. There is no fighting about who’s right and why. It is just a plea to turn to God and find love there.

The problem with the argument threads is that they are pointless in regard to this issue. Church teaching on homosexual behavior is clear, and there’s even a sticky about it in case someone wanders in who has been living in a cave for the past 20 years.

That’s why I am so pleased with this thread. So much energy is spent here by people trying to be the most vocal defender of church teaching that the love of Christ is forgotten entirely.

The most important message for a gay Catholic-especially a young person-is to be told emphatically that they are loved by God and loved by others in the Church. That there is hope, there is help and there are people who want to support them. Once that message is received, there will be no issue about behavior. Take it from someone who has lived it-knowing without question that God loves me has been the SOLE reason that I could live a life according to Church teaching in regard to sexuality. There is simply no other power that is as strong as the love of Christ. Nothing else can give you the strength to fight the pull of the culture around you and live a life that can seem impossible. It’s one thing to be straight and know that someday you will be able to marry and live and love another person-it’s quite another to know at a young age that your attractions mean a life without a partner. Watching all your friends and family march off two by two while you remain alone is something we only have in common with the clergy and religious. Like them, we need the grace of God plus prayers of our brothers and sisters in order to remain faithful.

I’m not saying this to say “oh poor me”…I’m not a victim of anything. I’m only saying it to describe to those who are not living with this issue why it’s so important to show gay people the way to Christ and to support them on their journey.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

CC,

I join your call. I wish for my homosexual brothers and sisters to realize that those who do not bear their particular cross are NOT exempt from concupiscence.

The doors of Mother Church are open. We each have equal opportunity to receive God’s grace.

Of all sins, the sexual kind, heterosexual and homosexual, and variations thereof, is the devil’s best and easiest enticement. We all sin, me included, but we get down on our knees and ask forgiveness.

We don’t know what causes dominant homosexual urges. Science and psychological studies have not made the case if the etiology is more biologically, developmentally, or socially determined. The Church does not pretend to know. We do know that a life given to free expression of homosexual desire is fraught with layers of personal problems, and legal and social endorsement of same sex unions is giving undue weight to individual freedom instead of the social good of present and future generations. Those who maintain the opposite are living in an alternate world that they work hard to validate.

I come from a big family with six natural brothers. Same set of parents, same type of upbringing. Why did the middle son, the most handsome of all and gifted in so many ways, came out as gay in his 20s? Only as a point of reflection now, our father was busy making a living for an increasing number of children to feed, was present everyday at home but ‘not there’ for him. This brother proceeded to live the lifestyle over a period that provided, at the end of the day, transitory joys at the most. Our family never shunned or disowned him, although none supported his choice. Approaching mid-life now, he has a chance to come back to the light. We are thankful the destructive phase has ended. Not one of us is asking him to be “cured” or to change what many gay protagonists would say is at the core of his being. It is never too late for enlightened choices, not for him, not for any who may be undergoing the same kind of struggle.

Come home, my brothers and sisters in Christ.
,

 

[CopticChristian]

The problem with the argument threads is that they are pointless in regard to this issue. Church teaching on homosexual behavior is clear, and there’s even a sticky about it in case someone wanders in who has been living in a cave for the past 20 years.

That’s why I am so pleased with this thread. So much energy is spent here by people trying to be the most vocal defender of church teaching that the love of Christ is forgotten entirely.

The most important message for a gay Catholic-especially a young person-is to be told emphatically that they are loved by God and loved by others in the Church. That there is hope, there is help and there are people who want to support them. Once that message is received, there will be no issue about behavior. Take it from someone who has lived it-knowing without question that God loves me has been the SOLE reason that I could live a life according to Church teaching in regard to sexuality. There is simply no other power that is as strong as the love of Christ. Nothing else can give you the strength to fight the pull of the culture around you and live a life that can seem impossible. It’s one thing to be straight and know that someday you will be able to marry and live and love another person-it’s quite another to know at a young age that your attractions mean a life without a partner. Watching all your friends and family march off two by two while you remain alone is something we only have in common with the clergy and religious. Like them, we need the grace of God plus prayers of our brothers and sisters in order to remain faithful.

I’m not saying this to say “oh poor me”…I’m not a victim of anything. I’m only saying it to describe to those who are not living with this issue why it’s so important to show gay people the way to Christ and to support them on their journey.

Seeker,

Too often I see, hear, read…that there are those that propose they want to stay outside the doors of the home they are welcome in…may I reference you in the future as someone that opened the door and stepped in, feels welcome and comfortable with your family in Christ?

 

[Seeker1961]

Seeker,

Too often I see, hear, read…that there are those that propose they want to stay outside the doors of the home they are welcome in…may I reference you in the future as someone that opened the door and stepped in, feels welcome and comfortable with your family in Christ?

Absolutely. If I can do it, anyone can. If I can be a help to even one other person, that will be an answer to my prayers.

 

[KP3243]

I think homosexuals can make big contributions to the Church. A homosexual devout in his or her faith and not acting upon their sexual tendencies are a great testament to their love of Jesus. A homosexual who is devout is very isolated because the Church community in general doesn’t understand homosexuality well although I see it already starting be more open and the Catholics are the most open to healing and devout Catholic homosexuals are also isolated by the Gay community who think they are a traitor to who they really are. There is a good case to be made that homosexuals devout to Jesus share in the same abandonment that Jesus did on the cross. They are wonderful examples to the rest of us and we need to help them with their abandonment they need and are most worthy of our love and support - I can’t imagine how hard they have it.

 

[Tigg]

Though I like the nice argument every one in awhile, this thread is a breath of fresh air. There is no fighting about who’s right and why. It is just a plea to turn to God and find love there.

Fresh air or not, I think it well to remember this (emphasis added - mine)

Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

It does penance for the sins of others, **but it is not broadminded about sin. **

**The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies
that have entered into contest with the Truth. **

It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin;
**it is unmerciful to the error in his mind. **

The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
**but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.
**
Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation
and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

**Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. **

Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.

~ Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen ~

Our challenge these days is to combine truth and charity in equal portions. Charity is at the heart of the Church’s social justice teaching, but if it is not combined with truth, it cannot have a moral good as its end. Caritas in Veritate spoke of these things.

If social justice is the command to “love one another as I have loved you” then we have much to think about. How does Christ love us? He continually calls us into a greater communion and understanding of Himself, and all of His blessings (including the material) flow from our submission and acknowledgment of His sovereignty and truth. It would be far better to be the poorest of the poor, than not have the gift of faith which necessarily will bring me into the light of God’s truth.

Yes, we welcome you home and will minister to you. Will your heart be open to what I, The Lord, will say to you so that I might bring you into the fullness of life?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think homosexuals can make big contributions to the Church. A homosexual devout in his or her faith and not acting upon their sexual tendencies are a great testament to their love of Jesus. A homosexual who is devout is very isolated because the Church community in general doesn’t understand homosexuality well although I see it already starting be more open and the Catholics are the most open to healing and devout Catholic homosexuals are also isolated by the Gay community who think they are a traitor to who they really are. There is a good case to be made that homosexuals devout to Jesus share in the same abandonment that Jesus did on the cross. They are wonderful examples to the rest of us and we need to help them with their abandonment they need and are most worthy of our love and support - I can’t imagine how hard they have it.

I completely agree with this.

 

[Seeker1961]

I think we should follow the example of Jesus, who told the woman who was to be stoned that He would not condemn her before He told her to go and sin no more.

Jesus told us that the greatest commandment was to love God with our heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

He didn’t say to love only those who obeyed the law.

To tell people what the law commands before showing them how to obtain the grace they need to obey it is to unfairly handicap them. Those are the people who end up feeling that the Church hates them and that God doesn’t love them and that’s the last message we want to send.

 

[CMatt25]

I agree in comparison to many threads on CAF this is a very nice one and Coptic I :tiphat: to you for your kind and loving effort here. And I am so grateful Seeker1961 had such a loving confessor and has found peace. So I am hesitating risking being a “party pooper” but I feel compelled to make a few comments about a few things I find troubling in this scenario.

It sounds like Seeker’s experience may have been a few yrs back and the sense I get on CAF and elsewhere is today’s priests in general, not in all cases of course, may not be of the same “mold” as older priests of yesteryear. The impression I at least get is many of today’s younger priests and the Catholic Church on the whole tends to have a more conservative, strident nature, and with JP2 installing so many conservatives in high places, those of this nature appear set to hold onto the reins for the foreseeable future.

It sounds like it is only wanted for homosexuals or for that matter heterosexuals who have felt pushed away, driven away, to come “home” and they will only be truly welcomed if they become “educated” and accept all of your church’s teachings including it seems from CAF, the conservative politics it emphasizes today.

Some though simply can not in good conscience do that and be at peace with their consciences where as even your CCC says we are alone with God Whose voice echos within. So they shall never be truly welcomed it seems to me. Jesus taught He turns no one away who comes to Him. And I know I would need to be somewhere where I am not turned away and where I feel truly welcomed and embraced as I am. With my warts, sins, cargo shorts, tee shirts, sneakers, politics, and all.

Too often I hear today about the one time Jesus threw out the money changers. But Jesus changed water into wine and walked on water too. Neither of which any human soul on this earth can do.

But again a refreshing concept for a CAF thread Coptic. God bless you and all who walk along their journeys of faith. Peace.

 

[CopticChristian]

I agree in comparison to many threads on CAF this is a very nice one and Coptic I :tiphat: to you for your kind and loving effort here. And I am so grateful Seeker1961 had such a loving confessor and has found peace. So I am hesitating risking being a “party pooper” but I feel compelled to make a few comments about a few things I find troubling in this scenario.

It sounds like Seeker’s experience may have been a few yrs back and the sense I get on CAF and elsewhere is today’s priests in general, not in all cases of course, may not be of the same “mold” as older priests of yesteryear. The impression I at least get is many of today’s younger priests and the Catholic Church on the whole tends to have a more conservative, strident nature, and with JP2 installing so many conservatives in high places, those of this nature appear set to hold onto the reins for the foreseeable future.

It sounds like it is only wanted for homosexuals or for that matter heterosexuals who have felt pushed away, driven away, to come “home” and they will only be truly welcomed if they become “educated” and accept all of your church’s teachings including it seems from CAF, the conservative politics it emphasizes today.

Some though simply can not in good conscience do that and be at peace with their consciences where as even your CCC says we are alone with God Whose voice echos within. So they shall never be truly welcomed it seems to me. Jesus taught He turns no one away who comes to Him. And I know I would need to be somewhere where I am not turned away and where I feel truly welcomed and embraced as I am. With my warts, sins, cargo shorts, tee shirts, sneakers, politics, and all.

Too often I hear today about the one time Jesus threw out the money changers. But Jesus changed water into wine and walked on water too. Neither of which any human soul on this earth can do.

But again a refreshing concept for a CAF thread Coptic. God bless you and all who walk along their journeys of faith. Peace.

Matt,

The Prodigal son is the son that has left the home and the Father is the Father that longs for their return for whatever reason…come home.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Doesn’t the “God loves you” argument only really work with people who already believe in his existence, though?

 

[CopticChristian]

Doesn’t the “God loves you” argument only really work with people who already believe in his existence, though?

Regular,

There is no argument. I believe God loves you. You don’t have to believe that. Imagine tonight when you go to bed that as you fall asleep, no matter what, there is a God that loves you because when you wake up you have another day…believe as you wish.

 

[CMatt25]

Matt, The Prodigal son is the son that has left the home and the Father is the Father that longs for their return for whatever reason…come home.

Coptic, my case is not as a homosexual but I appreciate your efforts here. Unfortunately I have experienced one too many other siblings who seem to me to consider themselves greater than me. They reject me as one of them. Forbid me in their presence to use the family name given to me for all time by our Father. They think they are better educated than me. They think they dress more appropriately than me for Mass. They think they make a better choice on who to vote for in a secular election. They say they know more than I do. I am assured in my belief by the Father and His #1 Son that I am loved. But it got to the point where I was made to feel no longer part of the family by others within the household. I call it driven away because that is how I feel. But if you want to call it “left” that’s fine with me. I can say left because I felt driven away. I’m just leaving it between them and God. If He asks them about it, they can answer to Him. In any case I have been ridiculed and put down one too many times to want to “come home” now as you put it. I fear if I did in no time it would be back to the same things. I could not be myself. I would have to dress a certain way. Vote a certain way. Told I had to believe everything in a certain way. Carry a heavy yoke to be part of the family when Jesus instead said His yoke is easy and His burden is light for us. That home no longer feels like home to me. I am not welcome to the table to eat as I am anyway. And it is not the home I remember. I don’t see enough humility. I see a place which to me is filled (well not filled) but which seems to me of the people who are there, to have more nowadays in it that come across to me as believing they are greater, holier, and they want a purer house even if smaller. I’ve heard about this purer/smaller concept more since Benedict 16 assumed the Papacy. I don’t hold a lot of optimism that things are going to be different in the house anytime soon. But I’ll keep my eyes and ears open. In a manner of speaking it reminds me of an inn which had no room. And I need room to be me and to breathe Coptic or else I will suffocate.

 

[LisaA]

Coptic, my case is not as a homosexual but I appreciate your efforts here. Unfortunately I have experienced one too many other siblings who seem to me to consider themselves greater than me. They reject me as one of them. Forbid me in their presence to use the family name given to me for all time by our Father. They think they are better educated than me. They think they dress more appropriately than me for Mass. They think they make a better choice on who to vote for in a secular election. They say they know more than I do. I am assured in my belief by the Father and His #1 Son that I am loved. But it got to the point where I was made to feel no longer part of the family by others within the household. I call it driven away because that is how I feel. But if you want to call it “left” that’s fine with me. I can say left because I felt driven away. I’m just leaving it between them and God. If He asks them about it, they can answer to Him. In any case I have been ridiculed and put down one too many times to want to “come home” now as you put it. I fear if I did in no time it would be back to the same things. I could not be myself. I would have to dress a certain way. Vote a certain way. Told I had to believe everything in a certain way. Carry a heavy yoke to be part of the family when Jesus instead said His yoke is easy and His burden is light for us. That home no longer feels like home to me. I am not welcome to the table to eat as I am anyway. And it is not the home I remember. I don’t see enough humility. I see a place which to me is filled (well not filled) but which seems to me of the people who are there, to have more nowadays in it that come across to me as believing they are greater, holier, and they want a purer house even if smaller. I’ve heard about this purer/smaller concept more since Benedict 16 assumed the Papacy. I don’t hold a lot of optimism that things are going to be different in the house anytime soon. But I’ll keep my eyes and ears open. In a manner of speaking it reminds me of an inn which had no room. And I need room to be me and to breathe Coptic or else I will suffocate.

CMatt, I think the following bears repeating:

**Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies
that have entered into contest with the Truth.

It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin;
it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation
and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly. **

~ Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen ~

Based on your post above, and previous encounters, it seems to me that you reject many of the Church’s teachings and reject any effort to explain why that rejection means you have isolated yourself rather than being isolated by the Church.

I truly have difficulty imagining encountering people at Mass who diapparove of your clothing or question your voting patterns. Quite honestly if there were a dress code in my Diocese we’d have about three people at Mass. Other than truly provacative or inappropriate clothing, I have never heard any objection to what anyone wears to Mass. We expect the Priest to be suitably attired but the parishioners? No. As to people thinking you should vote a certain way, again are people walking up to you at Mass and saying well you aren’t welcome because you aren’t voting for X instead of Y?

A lot of times people think everyine is talking about them only to find out that most people have enough to deal with in their own lives without taking on the burdens of others.

I hope you read Archbishop Sheen’s amazing words. I think they are very appropriate with respect to this thread.

Lisa

 

[Elizabeth502]

CMatt,
I’m not trying to cause offense. I’m just not sure if you understand that this thread is not about you. As elsewhere, you seem to be bringing up once again your repeated themes of what you interpret as rejection of you, personally, as a result of discussions you have chosen to join on CAF. For example, you joined at least one thread on Mass attire. I do not recall a single replier there saying that you were ‘less Catholic’ because you insist on wearing cargo shorts to Mass. It was a general discussion about propriety of dress (and options most people do have), relative to the occasion of the Sacred Sacrifice of the Mass. Such thread or threads encouraged posters to consider attire decisions based on what we all assume to believe as Catholics. Various people offered opinions on how we should dress at Mass. But it was not a discussion about who was and was not Catholic, by virtue of dress.

You have joined many political discussions, as many of us have. Points have been made on such threads about which positions are legitimately Catholic by their content, and which positions can accurately be called non-Catholic in what those positions state, such as what a Catholic politician claims he or she can embrace as a Catholic position. You have seemed surprised and discouraged that several of your own stated positions do not align with official Catholic teaching. I believe that some posters have suggested that you discuss your disagreements and doubts with ordained Roman Catholic priests (possibly more than one), rather than use the internet to discern whether your positions are (not your baptism is) genuinely Catholic.

Generally, if one is in crisis about one’s faith, to the point of considering unaffiliating with Catholicism and choosing a Protestant sect instead, it would be a better idea to have a conversation with a spiritual director about what private concerns can and cannot be synchronized with Catholic theology, rather than just assume you “don’t belong” because either some stranger on a website directly said so, or because you have interpreted or misinterpreted their words to mean that.

I’m not sure what you mean by being told “to believe in a certain way.” It is unfair to derail this thread to elaborate on that. I will just say that Catholicism embraces many styles of belief (“a certain way” implies style to me, not content), but Catholicism does not embrace a variety of core beliefs in content. (There are not several contradictory answers to an objective question in areas of Catholic moral theology – such as defined areas of sexuality and the body, theology of the family and traditional marriage, Life issues, etc.) If one feels “rejected” by other Catholics because they do not embrace non-Catholic positions, that is an intellectual rejection, not a rejection of the person.

I have actually read far more posts from you stating an inclination to leave Catholicism (based on your own stated differences with the Faith), than I have read anyone implying that you should leave, let alone telling you you should leave. Posters being emphatic (especially when confronted by vagueness) about what Catholicism does stand for, is not the same thing as being emphatic about who should remain within the Church. It’s unfair to project your own doubts onto what you assume is the intentionality of others (simply because they are emphatic.)