Homosexuals Come Home...we miss you....

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epan said:
I’m no psychologist, but my understanding is that the emotional component of romantic love is essentially the same, regardless of gender of partners. So, in that sense, it is perceived as “natural” by those who love each other.

This was my point, that the Catholic Church is not likely to get these people back, when they can find other churches which are accepting of them. When we talk about the “natural” order of things, it is nothing more, nor less than an historic collection of ideas which preceded the Catholic Church, and which the Church adopted and modified to suit its theology. The fact is, that when people refer to what is “natural”, or what is bound by “natural law”, there are many different reference points for that concept, both older and newer than the opinion of the Catholic Church.

There was a time, when diversity was not appreciated. As the world has shrunk through technology, different races, cultures, political views, and so on… are now accepted as equally valid, depending on context. This also applies to sexual orientation. Yes, I know that the current Pope, and his adherents, adopt the view that such relativism is repugnant and dangerous. But that is not true of all Catholics, nor is it true of many previous popes.

Listening to Sister Ferrell in a recent interview, her primary objection to the Vatican’s opinion on the LCWR is that there is no room even for discussion of some of these pressing social issues, such as the role of women in the Church, contraception, and sexual orientation.

Other churches are will to openly discuss these issues with their membership, and a dialogue results. I don’t know if the Catholic Church has always been this way, or whether this is a hallmark of the current papacy. But I must say that her objection seemed compelling to me. I intend to listen to the Bishop’s rebuttal this afternoon.

The question I would ask is, why would any person subject herself to the Catholic Church’s authority, when there are other Church’s which are more welcoming, and affirming?
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Epan you are so funny! Listening to Sr Farrell? My heavens, there’s an authority for you :eek: She is wrong in that there is no room for discussion. These issues have been discussed, written about, preached in homilies, and debated endlessly. The fact that the Church has not changed to comport with Sr. Farrell’s opinion doesn’t mean that the issues never come up.

It’s not that these issues are swept under the rug, it’s that the Church has not bowed to current culture as have some of the liberal mainline Prot churches. The Church responds repeatedly to challenges with its clear, consistent and well supported positions.

As Elizabeth502 mentioned, we all have sins (disorders) that we struggle with. Sinners in fact are most welcome at Mass, since they comprise 100% of the attendees! And I admit when the Priest mentions my particular failings, it does make me squirm a bit and resolve to head for reconciliation as well as addressing my problems more seriously.

We are all supposedly striving to be holy and to follow Christ. We aren’t expecting to be affirmed in our disordered behaviors. Isn’t that the point? That we are striving to be better Christians, better Catholics?

FWIW relativism is the cause of much evil in the world. I would not consider this an attribute in a person’s actions or a church’s teaching.

Lisa
 
iloveangels said:
The one in union with Rome, then you must mean, because that’s what is sounds like you’re saying. Correct?
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I believe Coptic uses this acronym as a reference as we use the same phrase in the Creed. Hopefully he will weigh in and clarify. I don’t want to speak for him.
Lisa
 
LisaA said:
One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The universal Church founded by Christ.

Lisa
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And Coptic is an eastern rite Catholic, not all Catholics use the Latin rite, and they are still Catholic in union with the Holy Father.
 
andrewstx said:
And Coptic is an eastern rite Catholic, not all Catholics use the Latin rite, and they are still Catholic in union with the Holy Father.
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What does Coptic Christian have to say about this matter of union with Rome? He’s the OP.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Well, I have disordered attractions. They’re called the 7 Capital Sins, a couple of which I am especially attracted to. :o They are intrinsic disorders as well. The Saints were well aware of these disorders, how fundamental these were to work against in the Christian journey. They were acutely aware of their disorders.

I do not take my underlying attractions to a couple of these disorders as meaning that

more than any other person is not worthy. We are all unworthy of the love and mercy of God, whether we have gravely or lightly sinned once or one million times.
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Yes, that may be true- but how often do you really hear that word other than in the context of homosexuality? I had never heard anyone referred to as “disordered” until I started reading about church teaching on homosexuality.
 
epan said:
I appreciate the sentiment. I doubt that it has much resonance with most homosexuals though. There are plenty of churches which are more accepting, where they can embrace a more positive self image, and also find the love of God. I would expect that most would prefer those other churches. Why would anyone want to go to a place to hear something like, “You are “disordered”, but we love you”, when that person’s life experience does not bear that out?
When a religion does not agree with what one finds to be true experientially, then it loses credibility. The growth of faith relies on reinforcement of beliefs through experience. When experience belies those beliefs, then faith is challenged. Sometimes it is possible to overcome this through new insight, sometimes not.

In the case of the Catholic Church’s opinion on homosexuality, this presents a challenge. I am not talking about people who have sex just because it feels good. Those people exist in all sexual orientations, and the Church would find them sinful regardless of orientation. I am referring to homosexuals who fall in love, and the sexual unions fulfills that love. This feels as natural to them, as it does to any heterosexual. So, using words such as “disordered” to describe the phenomenon is disconsonant with their experience.
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Epan,

You spend most of your time supporting the “gay” agenda. Here you wrongly state that actions define a person. The Church welcomes all, including the likes of you. The actions are disordered not the person Epan. Your actions here are disordered but not you.👍
 
LisaA said:
I believe Coptic uses this acronym as a reference as we use the same phrase in the Creed. Hopefully he will weigh in and clarify. I don’t want to speak for him.
Lisa
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The OHCAC is Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic East/West…there are 22 Rites in the Roman Catholic Church of which one is Coptic Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Marionite Catholic, Byzantine Catholice etc…there is a Coptic Orthodox in the Eastern Orthodox…and that includes all baptized in the Trinitarian formula…lest we forget the separated brethren…

Homosexuals may be in any of those groups and to say that they can choose a Church…right on…being baptized in the trinitarian formula they may find themselves in an ecclesial community and I would hope phone home to Rome…or the East…🙂
 
CopticChristian said:
The OHCAC is Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic East/West…there are 22 Rites in the Roman Catholic Church of which one is Coptic Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Marionite Catholic, Byzantine Catholice etc…there is a Coptic Orthodox in the Eastern Orthodox…and that includes all baptized in the Trinitarian formula…lest we forget the separated brethren…

Homosexuals may be in any of those groups and to say that they can choose a Church…right on…being baptized in the trinitarian formula they may find themselves in an ecclesial community and I would hope phone home to Rome…or the East…🙂
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Then you are saying that you are in union with Rome. Correct?
 
iloveangels said:
You’d better not say “my love” to me. :hmmm::hmmm: … :blackeye:

But again, thanks for the answer. 👍
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ILA,

I am not sure about you. I address you as love and you posture. I respond and you posture. What’s up…Faith, Hope, Charity/Love…the greatest of these is ???
 
CopticChristian said:
ILA,

I am not sure about you. I address you as love and you posture. I respond and you posture. What’s up…Faith, Hope, Charity/Love…the greatest of these is ???
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The greatest of these is…knowing what’s up. We’re in a forum. I don’t even know you. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 
Seeker1961 said:
Yes, that may be true- but how often do you really hear that word other than in the context of homosexuality? I had never heard anyone referred to as “disordered” until I started reading about church teaching on homosexuality.
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It doesn’t matter, Seeker. It matters that I am keenly aware of my disordered attractions, and that I know they don’t go away. It doesn’t matter if others “recognize” those and name them, or if the Catechism includes those in disordered attractions. Other Catholic documents refer to the allure of the 7 Capital Sins, and how they are the foundation of particular sins. They are the disordered principles behind those sins. The fact that I am heterosexual is not a cover or a compensation for my very real disordered attractions, which encourage attachment to them due to their attractiveness and omnipresence.

“How often I (don’t) hear the word” disorrdered does not mean that others consider me more perfect than someone with SSA, nor that I can fool myself into believing that, nor that I can fool God into “knowing” that. The knowledge is the awareness; it’s not about a label.
 
LisaA said:
Epan you are so funny! Listening to Sr Farrell? My heavens, there’s an authority for you :eek: She is wrong in that there is no room for discussion. These issues have been discussed, written about, preached in homilies, and debated endlessly. The fact that the Church has not changed to comport with Sr. Farrell’s opinion doesn’t mean that the issues never come up.

It’s not that these issues are swept under the rug, it’s that the Church has not bowed to current culture as have some of the liberal mainline Prot churches. The Church responds repeatedly to challenges with its clear, consistent and well supported positions.

As Elizabeth502 mentioned, we all have sins (disorders) that we struggle with. Sinners in fact are most welcome at Mass, since they comprise 100% of the attendees! And I admit when the Priest mentions my particular failings, it does make me squirm a bit and resolve to head for reconciliation as well as addressing my problems more seriously.

We are all supposedly striving to be holy and to follow Christ. We aren’t expecting to be affirmed in our disordered behaviors. Isn’t that the point? That we are striving to be better Christians, better Catholics?

FWIW relativism is the cause of much evil in the world. I would not consider this an attribute in a person’s actions or a church’s teaching.

Lisa
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Call me funny, but don’t stand by the door of any Catholic Church expecting to see an increase in attendance any time soon. Seminarians are running at about 10% of the level required to staff existing operations. Unless something changes, the Catholic Church will be shutting down for lack of staff within a generation or two. It has become critical, as this has been going on for long enough that retirees are outnumbering new priests by a large ratio.

The OP’s intent, as I interpreted it, was to find a way to appeal to those who are estranged from the Catholic Church. That is not happening, and it appears that it will not happen.

I don’t find the trend as amusing as you might. It could mean the end of a 1,500 year legacy. Maybe things will turn around.
 
epan said:
Unless something changes, the Catholic Church will be shutting down for lack of staff within a generation or two.
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:rotfl:
(Yes, I call you funny.)

Individual parishes have closed during the most recent generation. The Church, however, remains.

Do let us know where you get your 10% figure, and how (a) changing Church doctrine is compatible with the 2000-yr old traditions of Catholicism which you claim to respect, and how (b) “bringing homosexuals home” (by changing Church doctrine?) will significantly increase “staffing” levels, when they make up so small a percentage of the population?
 
epan said:
Call me funny, but don’t stand by the door of any Catholic Church expecting to see an increase in attendance any time soon. Seminarians are running at about 10% of the level required to staff existing operations. Unless something changes, the Catholic Church will be shutting down for lack of staff within a generation or two. It has become critical, as this has been going on for long enough that retirees are outnumbering new priests by a large ratio.

The OP’s intent, as I interpreted it, was to find a way to appeal to those who are estranged from the Catholic Church. That is not happening, and it appears that it will not happen.

I don’t find the trend as amusing as you might. It could mean the end of a 1,500 year legacy. Maybe things will turn around.
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Epan, just in case you haven’t noticed, when we have a priest shortage now, we import them from places where there’s a huge surplus. This isn’t only about you, and it’s not only about the US. The faith is growing like mad in Africa and Asia, and holding its own in Latin America and they have a surplus of clergy.
 
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