Homosexuals in the Seminary

[Everyman]

st.jerome:

I think that the concept here is that you cannot designate anyone as “scum.” We are all sinners but Christ is willing to forgive all sins. This is not just in general but is also personal to anyone no matter how grave the sin. It is always possible for a practicing homosexual to seek and receive redemption. We respect these people because, in this way, they are no different from the rest of us.

We are all sinners, this is true enough. But let’s not fool ourselves into accepting the modern Protestant notion that all sin is the same. The Catholic Church teaches a hierachy of sins.

In other words, stealing a potato chip is not as bad as killing your mother. Distinctions must be made. So just because I am a sinner does not mean I can’t designate a great mortal sin like homosexuality as “scummish.”

Christ can forgive any repentant sinner, but some sins call for greater penance. Also, some sins should cause more of a problem than others in determining who is fit for the priesthood.

 

[Aquarius]

blessedtoo:

Last months NOR issue featured an editorial reply to an e-mail in which the reader questioned the “mean-spirited” tone of their articles on this subject. The editor replied by saying that contrary to popular belief, we are indeed supposed to hate the sinner, as well as the sin. I was so distubed by this I brought the article to my pastor and he suggested I get cancel the subscription ASAP. I think this publication has a very skewed view of Rome, Bishops, and clergy in general. I would be wary of anything I read in this magazine.

I think this attitude is very common.

Can someone skilled in hatred of the sin tell us how they keep that hatred from spilling over onto the sinner?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Everyman:

We are all sinners, this is true enough. But let’s not fool ourselves into accepting the modern Protestant notion that all sin is the same. The Catholic Church teaches a hierachy of sins.

In other words, stealing a potato chip is not as bad as killing your mother. Distinctions must be made. So just because I am a sinner does not mean I can’t designate a great mortal sin like homosexuality as “scummish.”

Christ can forgive any repentant sinner, but some sins call for greater penance. Also, some sins should cause more of a problem than others in determining who is fit for the priesthood.

But shouldn’t we be careful in our choice of words? “Homosexuality” as a word seems to go to the disorder or inclination, which is not a sin, while “homosexual activity” or “acts” are culpable, inasmuch as they involve an act of the will. People suffering from the former are to be treated with respect and compassion (paraphrased from the Catechism) by Christians (Catholic ones, anyway), but the latter are among the sins that “cry out to heaven.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Aquarius:

I think this attitude is very common.

Can someone skilled in hatred of the sin tell us how they keep that hatred from spilling over onto the sinner?

By keeping one’s eyes focused on the Cross. By understanding that it is only by Grace that we, any of us, have any hope anyway. By the use of empathy coupled with that Grace, ie, “there, but for the Grace of God go I,” etc. But it has to be “Caritas et veritas, Veritas et Caritas,” not simply “Caritas” without “veritas” or vice versa.

 

[st.jerome]

Everyman:

We are all sinners, this is true enough. But let’s not fool ourselves into accepting the modern Protestant notion that all sin is the same. The Catholic Church teaches a hierachy of sins.

In other words, stealing a potato chip is not as bad as killing your mother. Distinctions must be made. So just because I am a sinner does not mean I can’t designate a great mortal sin like homosexuality as “scummish.”

Christ can forgive any repentant sinner, but some sins call for greater penance. Also, some sins should cause more of a problem than others in determining who is fit for the priesthood.

Not to make too fine a point on it, but although it is true that some sins are worse than other sins, on a personal level, one sinner is the same as any other.

St. Augustine said in his Confessions, “For what might I not have done when I loved vice for its own sake? I acknowledge that all things have been forgiven me, both the evils I did of my own free will, and those which, by Your guidance, I did not actually do.” [2, 7, 15]

In short, in this time when we are not yet free of all sin, a sinner has the “full disease” whether he has already committed horrible sins, has yet to commit them, or will by God’s grace be spared from committing them. This strong sense of sin would have us acknowledge that we are* all* equal to practicing homosexuals until we sin no more.

 

[Aquarius]

JKirkLVNV:

By keeping one’s eyes focused on the Cross. By understanding that it is only by Grace that we, any of us, have any hope anyway. By the use of empathy coupled with that Grace, ie, “there, but for the Grace of God go I,” etc. But it has to be “Caritas et veritas, Veritas et Caritas,” not simply “Caritas” without “veritas” or vice versa.

So, where does hatred fit into that?

 

[Guar_Fan]

buffalo:

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction.

True fraternal correction is motivated by love and has the spirit of brotherliness - these are things which are often missing when the topics of homosexuality or Islam are discussed.

The PC bug has bitten you.

I am not sure why you say that.

 

[Everyman]

st.jerome:

Not to make too fine a point on it, but although it is true that some sins are worse than other sins, on a personal level, one sinner is the same as any other.

St. Augustine said in his Confessions, “For what might I not have done when I loved vice for its own sake? I acknowledge that all things have been forgiven me, both the evils I did of my own free will, and those which, by Your guidance, I did not actually do.” [2, 7, 15]

In short, in this time when we are not yet free of all sin, a sinner has the “full disease” whether he has already committed horrible sins, has yet to commit them, or will by God’s grace be spared from committing them. This strong sense of sin would have us acknowledge that we are* all* equal to practicing homosexuals until we sin no more.

I think that we actually believe the same thing here, but we just need to clarify our terms perhaps.

I completely agree with what you say regarding not thinking of myself higher than another b/c I too am guilty of sin against God. However, the point of this thread is for me to express concern that some in the Church may be focusing solely on the grace aspect of the Gospel and ignoring the judgement aspect.

There is no denying that homosexuality is a mortal sin (although some on here seem like they may want to deny that). Also, there is no denying that God can forgive such a sin, just like any other, and that they too may recieve eternal paradise as much as any heterosexual person can.

But is such a person fit for the priesthood? Older Church documents say putting such a one in that position is “dangerous.” I agree.

 

[bones_IV]

buffalo:

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction. Correction with love is not hate. The PC bug has bitten you.

Especially with his pro-gay posts.

 

[Everyman]

Guar Fan:

True fraternal correction is motivated by love and has the spirit of brotherliness - these are things which are often missing when the topics of homosexuality or Islam are discussed.

I am not sure why you say that.

For one, the Muslim is not my brother. Just like with the homosexual, I will be nice, polite, and cordial with him, but I will not agree with their respective positions: the Muslim denies the deity of Christ and the homosexual denies the relational standard God ordered at creation. But, sure, I’d drink a beer and have a good talk with either one of them.

You’ve been told that you’ve been bitten by the PC bug b/c your language is more politically correct than Christian.

 

[st.jerome]

Everyman:

I think that we actually believe the same thing here, but we just need to clarify our terms perhaps.

I completely agree with what you say regarding not thinking of myself higher than another b/c I too am guilty of sin against God. However, the point of this thread is for me to express concern that some in the Church may be focusing solely on the grace aspect of the Gospel and ignoring the judgement aspect.

There is no denying that homosexuality is a mortal sin (although some on here seem like they may want to deny that). Also, there is no denying that God can forgive such a sin, just like any other, and that they too may recieve eternal paradise as much as any heterosexual person can.

But is such a person fit for the priesthood? Older Church documents say putting such a one in that position is “dangerous.” I agree.

I hear what you’re saying.

I was reacting primarily to the New Oxford Review article which argued against having “profound respect” for practicing homosexuals.

As to the question of the priesthood, I’m pretty satisfied with what the Church stated.

 

[st.jerome]

In particular, I like the “3 year rule.” Demonstrated Chastity trumps just about any other measurement of which I can think. It seems to me that the Church is concerned with one thing in particular; it does not question the sexual urges of the person so much as it questions a candidate, gay or straight, who would say: “I support gay culture, agree with their politics, and will subordinate Church teaching to further the cause.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Aquarius:

So, where does hatred fit into that?

Well, sin should become as loathsome to us as it is to God. As we are more conformed to the image of Christ, so sin should become more repugnant. Equally, the more we are conformed to the image of Christ, the more so should we grow in love FOR the sinner, not out of some sanctimonious or pharisaical attitude (“Lord, I thank Thee that I am not a sinner such as THIS one”), but from the knowledge that it could just as easily be us in the grip of sin and despair. It isn’t impossible, but it isn’t easy, either. Nonetheless, I think we have to strive for that balance.

 

[Everyman]

st.jerome:

In particular, I like the “3 year rule.” Demonstrated Chastity trumps just about any other measurement of which I can think. It seems to me that the Church is concerned with one thing in particular; it does not question the sexual urges of the person so much as it questions a candidate, gay or straight, who would say: “I support gay culture, agree with their politics, and will subordinate Church teaching to further the cause.”

Yes, I understand that as long as the Church always speaks against gay culture, politics, and practice, then it is standing for truth. But as one who has worked in a group home with many sexually abused children, I am extremly concerned about the statistics (from a practical point of view).

Many (dare I say most) homosexual men abuse children. In the priest/abuse scandals, it was found that a large percentage of those perpetrators claimed to be gay. Also, when an adult man molests a child, it is most commonly a boy.

This is why I initially flinch at the notion of allowing priests with gay tendancies. But maybe the 3-year rule is the thing that will make the difference.

 

[m134e5]

Everyman:

There is no denying that homosexuality is a mortal sin

Homosexuality is not a mortal sin. It isn’t even a sin at all. It’s just a condition. It is disordered- meaning that it is not as God intended things to be, just as many other things, like bipolar are disordered. Sex belongs in marriage, and marriage is between a man and a woman, therefore homosexual acts are mortally sinful.

 

[Everyman]

m134e5:

Homosexuality is not a mortal sin. It isn’t even a sin at all. It’s just a condition. It is disordered- meaning that it is not as God intended things to be, just as many other things, like bipolar are disordered. Sex belongs in marriage, and marriage is between a man and a woman, therefore homosexual acts are mortally sinful.

Thank you for the clarification. Of course, it is the acts that are sinful. There is much debate as to whether or not homosexuality is something one is born with, but since I am told that is what the Church says of it–a disorder one can be born with–then that is what I’ll accept.

The beautiful thing about being able to accept that understanding and still think the activity is wrong is that it is not a contradiction.

It has been proven that some people are biologically prone to become more angry than others. That doesn’t give them the right to sin in their anger; it just means that they will have to work on that particular thing harder than another. It is the same with homosexuality.

 

[Bandgeek]

religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex8.htm

The above is a site that has some very interesting information on homosexuality and child abuse by priests.

 

[Guar_Fan]

Everyman:

For one, the Muslim is not my brother. Just like with the homosexual, I will be nice, polite, and cordial with him, but I will not agree with their respective positions:

Ah, but all humans are our brothers and sisters. This is a very Christian position. We are called to love, even our enemies. And surely that means that we should treat everyone with respect.

You’ve been told that you’ve been bitten by the PC bug b/c your language is more politically correct than Christian.

I do not see where my language, or my position, has been un- Christian.

 

[Everyman]

Guar Fan:

Ah, but all humans are our brothers and sisters. This is a very Christian position. We are called to love, even our enemies. And surely that means that we should treat everyone with respect.

All people are our brothers and sisters only in a sense, the sense in which God created us all and is everyone’s Father by virtue of that fact. Yet we are not all family where God says we are not His. That is, when we reject Him.
Guar Fan:

I do not see where my language, or my position, has been un- Christian.

It’s where you seem unwilling to call sin what it is–sin.

 

[manualman]

st.jerome:

In short, in this time when we are not yet free of all sin, a sinner has the “full disease” whether he has already committed horrible sins, has yet to commit them, or will by God’s grace be spared from committing them. This strong sense of sin would have us acknowledge that we are* all* equal to practicing homosexuals until we sin no more.

Unclear on your message here. If by your definition of practicing homosexual you mean someone who understands the sinfulness of the behavior and with full consent does it anyways, there IS a distinct difference. A sinner who has repented, received absolution and resolved to sin no more is seen rather differently than the sinner who says in his heart ‘forget God, I’m doing what I want.’