T
tuopaolo
Guest
That’s true but there IS inherent sin in expressing homosexual affection. It doesn’t matter how or in what manner it is expressed. So hugging to express homosexual affection is inherently sinful.
- Status
G
Ghosty
Guest
Right, but again two men kissing, or holding hands, isn’t inherently homosexual. In the American culture, it likely would only be for homosexual reasons, and would therefore likely be sinful. In most other places in the world, however, it would not necessarily be that way.
Unless two gay friends were clearly not American, I would definately look askance at any signs of brotherly affection like light kisses or hand holding. Two Italian gay men exchanging pecks as a greeting, however, wouldn’t necessarily phase me if I knew they were chaste.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
as far as the Christian is concerned, we are limited to the most charitable construction on any situation we happen to observe regarding others. If two unmarried adults of either gender are living together in the same household, the charitable construction is that they are living in chastity according to their state in life. This also applies if they happen to share a bedroom while travelling. the Christian makes no speculation whatever on the private activities of any person. therefore this discussion is moot.
Physical expressions of affection have all kinds of connotations beyond the sexual, and to automatically see a sexual content in such expressions is in itself deviant. the correct assumption when others are observed in exchanging signs of affection is that they are expressing affection appropriate to their relationship - parent/child, brotherly, friendship etc. these things are culturally based and assumptions made by those from a less demonstrative culture are bound to be false.
Physical expressions of affection have all kinds of connotations beyond the sexual, and to automatically see a sexual content in such expressions is in itself deviant. the correct assumption when others are observed in exchanging signs of affection is that they are expressing affection appropriate to their relationship - parent/child, brotherly, friendship etc. these things are culturally based and assumptions made by those from a less demonstrative culture are bound to be false.
W
wcknight
Guest
AS a side issue, what is our obligations if we know two folks are living in a homosexual situation ? First off, if we happen to know one or both are Catholic and second if neither are Catholic.
Do we have an obligation to warn them that their life style is sinful ? Is that solely the responsibility of their parents ? What if they are adults ? as friends, relatives, or aquaintances do we say anything ? or should we mind our own business ?
wc
Do we have an obligation to warn them that their life style is sinful ? Is that solely the responsibility of their parents ? What if they are adults ? as friends, relatives, or aquaintances do we say anything ? or should we mind our own business ?
wc
B
buffalo
Guest
Except for the media suprressed fact that most abuse was post-pubescent and of a homosexual nature. I know of only a few actual pedophilia cases.
O
Other_Eric
Guest
Hi puzzleannie!
It’s clear, at least to me, that Christians are not limited to the most charitable interpretations of the things that they see going on around them. Consider the ongoing debate about homosexual priests. Many wish to establish an assumption that a person who experiences homosexual temptations (regardless of whether they have ever been acted upon) has a diminished capacity to remain celibate and is likely to be a sexual predator as a matter of administrative policy.
If the Church is free to make these assumptions of the people who would enter into her service, then the faithful may be free to make similar judgments about the two men who live together and occasionally hug and/or kiss. Such a couple is obviously guilty of the sin of scandal. Even if the couple protests publicly that they do not engage in sexual relations with one another, it still does not save them because if they were having sex, this is precisely the kind of thing that one would reasonably expect them to be dishonest about.
The spiritually safest course of action for the homosexual appears to be one in which he lives alone and avoids close relationships with members of his own gender.
T
tuopaolo
Guest
I agree. But I thought that in the opening post he was talking about kissing and hugging out of homosexual affection since he seemed to classify it as “sexual activity.”
To be clear on what I mean, even if there is no intent to become “excited” nor any danger of becoming “excited”, it is still wrong to express homosexual affection because the affection itself is perverse (disordered from goodness). The Catechism of the Catholic Church (#2357) says that it is not a “genuine” affection in contrast to heterosexual affection which is “genuine” and complementary in nature. IOW, heterosexual affection is truly human whereas homosexual affection is a distortion/perversion of our humanity.
So while it is OK for a girlfriend and boyfriend to express heterosexual affection such as by holding hands or singing a love song (one that is modest) or writing a (modest) love poem or giving a flower; it is not OK – ever – for a homosexual couple to express homosexual affection by those or any other means.
They can express genuine human affection, but not homosexual affection.
P
Pug
Guest
I put an entirely different construction upon the original post than you. I did not think it was asking about our response to seeing two non-married individuals living together. I thought it asked if it was an acceptable moral action to live together, you know, a hypothetical, can the general person do it or not? There is nothing wrong with discussing moral hypotheticals.
F
fix
Guest
Why would two “gay” men want to live together if they are trying to live their vocations chastely?
J
Jennie
Guest
Our Lord speaks of homosexual acts as being sinful. This is not a “man made” phenomenon. It is Gods Law.
To think anything of the contrary to this teaching is denying the authority of God.
Certainly all of us have temptations, but reinforcing those temptations by playing with fire is very dangerous, and one can expect to get burned.
One with SSA should not be living with active homosexuals, or be going to gay dance clubs. This is only going to exasperate or reinforce this behavior.
The male friend in this case has made the choice to follow this temptation, while knowing it is contrary to the teachings of our Lord, not once, but repeatedly.
L
leo123
Guest
The problem with this question is it has two sides, the abstract side and the practical side.
If you pose a squeeky clean abstract question by saying there would be: No homosexual acts, No temptation to sin, No prolonging of disordered sexual desires, No desire to resemble the institution of marriage, No assumption of legal rights similar to those possessed by a married couple… and so on… then one might conclude that it is not sinfull.
However the other side is that some of the things mentioned above are pretty near IMPOSSIBLE to avoid because we do not have the power to switch on and off our sexual attractions.That doesn’t mean two homosexuals living together wouldn’t be able to resist acting on their thoughts but it does mean that they might be unnecessarily generating sexual thoughts.
In addition, while it is not sinful to have homosexual thoughts it is in no way OK that they should be there, as though they were somehow neutral, they are not, homosexual desires are disordered. And if you are living in close proximity to someone that attracts you sexually, and you have no right to be attractyed sexually, then it is best to sacrifice and leave that situation.
I have some personal understanding of these questions of cohabitation while still living a chaste life.
If you pose a squeeky clean abstract question by saying there would be: No homosexual acts, No temptation to sin, No prolonging of disordered sexual desires, No desire to resemble the institution of marriage, No assumption of legal rights similar to those possessed by a married couple… and so on… then one might conclude that it is not sinfull.
However the other side is that some of the things mentioned above are pretty near IMPOSSIBLE to avoid because we do not have the power to switch on and off our sexual attractions.That doesn’t mean two homosexuals living together wouldn’t be able to resist acting on their thoughts but it does mean that they might be unnecessarily generating sexual thoughts.
In addition, while it is not sinful to have homosexual thoughts it is in no way OK that they should be there, as though they were somehow neutral, they are not, homosexual desires are disordered. And if you are living in close proximity to someone that attracts you sexually, and you have no right to be attractyed sexually, then it is best to sacrifice and leave that situation.
I have some personal understanding of these questions of cohabitation while still living a chaste life.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
I. “Male and Female He Created Them . . .”
2331 "God is love and in himself he lives a mystery of personal loving communion. Creating the human race in his own image . . … God inscribed in the humanity of man and woman the vocation, and thus the capacity and responsibility, of love and communion."114
“God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them”;115 He blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply”;116 "When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created."117
2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.
2333** Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. the harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.**
2334 "In creating men ‘male and female,’ God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."118 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."119
2335 Each of the two sexes is an image of the power and tenderness of God, with equal dignity though in a different way. the union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh the Creator’s generosity and fecundity: "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."120 All human generations proceed from this union.121
2336 Jesus came to restore creation to the purity of its origins. In the Sermon on the Mount, he interprets God’s plan strictly: "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."122 What God has joined together, let not man put asunder.123
The tradition of the Church has understood the sixth commandment as encompassing the whole of human sexuality.
II. The Vocation to Chastity
2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.
The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.
The integrity of the person
2338 The chaste person maintains the integrity of the powers of life and love placed in him. This integrity ensures the unity of the person; it is opposed to any behavior that would impair it. It tolerates neither a double life nor duplicity in speech.124
2339 Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. the alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy.125 "Man’s dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end."126
2340 Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of an ascesis adapted to the situations that confront him, obedience to God’s commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity."127
2341 The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.
cont’d
2331 "God is love and in himself he lives a mystery of personal loving communion. Creating the human race in his own image . . … God inscribed in the humanity of man and woman the vocation, and thus the capacity and responsibility, of love and communion."114
“God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them”;115 He blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply”;116 "When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created."117
2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.
2333** Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. the harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.**
2334 "In creating men ‘male and female,’ God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."118 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."119
2335 Each of the two sexes is an image of the power and tenderness of God, with equal dignity though in a different way. the union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh the Creator’s generosity and fecundity: "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."120 All human generations proceed from this union.121
2336 Jesus came to restore creation to the purity of its origins. In the Sermon on the Mount, he interprets God’s plan strictly: "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."122 What God has joined together, let not man put asunder.123
The tradition of the Church has understood the sixth commandment as encompassing the whole of human sexuality.
II. The Vocation to Chastity
2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.
The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.
The integrity of the person
2338 The chaste person maintains the integrity of the powers of life and love placed in him. This integrity ensures the unity of the person; it is opposed to any behavior that would impair it. It tolerates neither a double life nor duplicity in speech.124
2339 Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. the alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy.125 "Man’s dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end."126
2340 Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of an ascesis adapted to the situations that confront him, obedience to God’s commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity."127
2341 The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.
cont’d
C
Church_Militant
Guest
2342 Self-mastery is a long and exacting work. One can never consider it acquired once and for all. It presupposes renewed effort at all stages of life.128 The effort required can be more intense in certain periods, such as when the personality is being formed during childhood and adolescence.
2343 Chastity has laws of growth which progress through stages marked by imperfection and too often by sin. "Man . . . day by day builds himself up through his many free decisions; and so he knows, loves, and accomplishes moral good by stages of growth."129
2344 Chastity represents an eminently personal task; it also involves a cultural effort, for there is "an interdependence between personal betterment and the improvement of society."130 Chastity presupposes respect for the rights of the person, in particular the right to receive information and an education that respect the moral and spiritual dimensions of human life.
2345 Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort.131 The Holy Spirit enables one whom the water of Baptism has regenerated to imitate the purity of Christ.132
The integrality of the gift of self
2346 Charity is the form of all the virtues. Under its influence, chastity appears as a school of the gift of the person. Self-mastery is ordered to the gift of self. Chastity leads him who practices it to become a witness to his neighbor of God’s fidelity and loving kindness.
2347 The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship. It shows the disciple how to follow and imitate him who has chosen us as his friends,133 who has given himself totally to us and allows us to participate in his divine estate. Chastity is a promise of immortality.
Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one’s neighbor. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion.
The various forms of chastity
2348 All the baptized are called to chastity. the Christian has "put on Christ,"134 The model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.
2349 "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."135 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:
There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others… This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.136
2350 Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity.
Offenses against chastity
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
cont’d
2343 Chastity has laws of growth which progress through stages marked by imperfection and too often by sin. "Man . . . day by day builds himself up through his many free decisions; and so he knows, loves, and accomplishes moral good by stages of growth."129
2344 Chastity represents an eminently personal task; it also involves a cultural effort, for there is "an interdependence between personal betterment and the improvement of society."130 Chastity presupposes respect for the rights of the person, in particular the right to receive information and an education that respect the moral and spiritual dimensions of human life.
2345 Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort.131 The Holy Spirit enables one whom the water of Baptism has regenerated to imitate the purity of Christ.132
The integrality of the gift of self
2346 Charity is the form of all the virtues. Under its influence, chastity appears as a school of the gift of the person. Self-mastery is ordered to the gift of self. Chastity leads him who practices it to become a witness to his neighbor of God’s fidelity and loving kindness.
2347 The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship. It shows the disciple how to follow and imitate him who has chosen us as his friends,133 who has given himself totally to us and allows us to participate in his divine estate. Chastity is a promise of immortality.
Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one’s neighbor. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion.
The various forms of chastity
2348 All the baptized are called to chastity. the Christian has "put on Christ,"134 The model for all chastity. All Christ’s faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.
2349 "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."135 Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:
There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others… This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.136
2350 Those who are engaged to marry are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity.
Offenses against chastity
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
cont’d
C
Church_Militant
Guest
2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.
2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. the one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.139 Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.
2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 **Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
**
There’s the statement of what Catholics believe about all this. If I have any questions about chastity and myself or anyone else’s, this is where I look. As a VERY heterosexual male, I have to recognize the threat that ANY sin poses to my soul. And avoid that occasion…
Pax vobiscum,
2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. the one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.139 Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.
2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 **Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
**
There’s the statement of what Catholics believe about all this. If I have any questions about chastity and myself or anyone else’s, this is where I look. As a VERY heterosexual male, I have to recognize the threat that ANY sin poses to my soul. And avoid that occasion…
Pax vobiscum,
K
Kevin_Walker
Guest
How would a guy who is homosexual infiltrating into an all male environment like a Catholic seminary in close proximity to other men not have sinful thoughts on a daily basis?
Chaste or not a homosexual is still irrational and emotionally damaged.
How would a heterosexual male and serious in his studies in a Catholic seminary feel about a guy who is always trying to hold his hand under the guise of ‘brotherhood’ or ‘peace’ or ‘goodwill’? Then realizing that this guy is a homosexual treating him like a sex object? Obviously the homosexual has a hidden agenda and serving God is not part of it.
It is extremely important for the future welfare of the Catholic Church that all homosexual Priests be removed.
T
tuopaolo
Guest
Church Militant, the paragraph you quoted is from the 1st edition of the Catechism. The current, 2nd edition of the Catechism reads differently:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2358.htm
**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
It’s important to make sure which edition it is that you are quoting. The edition at the Vatican website btw is the 1st edition. The edition at Christus Rex is terrible because it is neither the 1st nor the 2nd edition but a mix of the two.
Here is a list of all the changes that were made from the 1st to the 2nd edition:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/updates.htm
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2358.htm
**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
It’s important to make sure which edition it is that you are quoting. The edition at the Vatican website btw is the 1st edition. The edition at Christus Rex is terrible because it is neither the 1st nor the 2nd edition but a mix of the two.
Here is a list of all the changes that were made from the 1st to the 2nd edition:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/updates.htm
Church Militant said:
O
Other_Eric
Guest
Kevin Walker:
This is not, strictly speaking, an issue of homosexuals in the priesthood, but ultimately about homosexuals not in the priesthood and how they should conduct themselves. I have answered that it seems to me that if a homosexual wishes to follow Catholic teaching he has a moral obligation to avoid close association with members of his own gender. I would further insist that the homosexual also has a moral obligation to become heterosexual. Church Militant was kind enough to post the relevant passages from the Catechism that pertain to this situation.2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
If, as you point out, a homosexual is so irrational and emotionally damaged that he cannot help but act on any and every sexual impulse, than it is reasonable to ask whether such a person is even capable of “disinterested friendship.”
Hi Kevin!
This is not, strictly speaking, an issue of homosexuals in the priesthood, but ultimately about homosexuals not in the priesthood and how they should conduct themselves. I have answered that it seems to me that if a homosexual wishes to follow Catholic teaching he has a moral obligation to avoid close association with members of his own gender. I would further insist that the homosexual also has a moral obligation to become heterosexual. Church Militant was kind enough to post the relevant passages from the Catechism that pertain to this situation.2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
If, as you point out, a homosexual is so irrational and emotionally damaged that he cannot help but act on any and every sexual impulse, than it is reasonable to ask whether such a person is even capable of “disinterested friendship.”
K
Kevin_Walker
Guest
Other Eric:
I just feel it is mandatory to point out that homosexuality is not just a matter of ‘preference’ , homosexuality is a mental health disorder.
The homosexual by its very nature is incapable of emotional stability and clarity of thought. So it is imperative to keep homosexuals out of the Priesthood, or any other position of strategic decision making just as the military and government screens out homosexuals in key governmental departments.
What ever else homosexuals do in society is none of my business and I wish them the best of luck.
Hello Other Eric:
I just feel it is mandatory to point out that homosexuality is not just a matter of ‘preference’ , homosexuality is a mental health disorder.
The homosexual by its very nature is incapable of emotional stability and clarity of thought. So it is imperative to keep homosexuals out of the Priesthood, or any other position of strategic decision making just as the military and government screens out homosexuals in key governmental departments.
What ever else homosexuals do in society is none of my business and I wish them the best of luck.
O
Other_Eric
Guest
Kevin Walker:
Hi Kevin!
If we are going to say that the homosexual is subject to a mental disorder in such a way that it would compromise national security or the salvation of others then we shouldn’t be talking about the proper role of the homosexual in society as much as we should be trying to find a way to remove him from it. Certainly there are other things that follow from saying that the homosexual is incapable of emotional stability or clarity of thought. We wouldn’t, for instance, want him taking this disorder into the voting booth. In fact, I can’t think of anything in society that it would be safe for them to do. It’s been said on other threads, and I believe you have agreed, that homosexuals excel in the entertainment industry, but surely you must realize that giving the depraved the bully pulpit of Hollywood gives them the opportunity to mislead the entire culture en masse as, in fact, they actually have. This further reinforces my belief that the Church’s teaching on the blamelessness of the homosexual condition is exactly wrong and that to be subject to this temptation is to sin, regardless of the behavior.
K
Kevin_Walker
Guest
Other Eric:
I am sorry. I thought I had made myself perfectly clear, but obviously I was mistaken. So allow me to repeat myself once more for the sake of clarity: Homosexuals are not subject to a mental disorder - homosexuality is a mental disorder!
That is why the U.S. military and U.S. Government forbid homosexuals from gaining access to key strategic positions and departments requiring emotional stability and clarity of thought. And the same should apply to the Catholic Priesthood. There is no justifiable reason for a homosexual to be ordained as a Catholic Priest!
Remember, if there were no homosexual Catholic Priests, then there would have been no international homosexual sex abuse scandal in the Church! The pedophile and pedorast are both horns on the same homosexual devil!
Otherwise I am in perfect agreement with the rest of your post. Thank you!
Hi Other Eric,
I am sorry. I thought I had made myself perfectly clear, but obviously I was mistaken. So allow me to repeat myself once more for the sake of clarity: Homosexuals are not subject to a mental disorder - homosexuality is a mental disorder!
That is why the U.S. military and U.S. Government forbid homosexuals from gaining access to key strategic positions and departments requiring emotional stability and clarity of thought. And the same should apply to the Catholic Priesthood. There is no justifiable reason for a homosexual to be ordained as a Catholic Priest!
Remember, if there were no homosexual Catholic Priests, then there would have been no international homosexual sex abuse scandal in the Church! The pedophile and pedorast are both horns on the same homosexual devil!
Otherwise I am in perfect agreement with the rest of your post. Thank you!
- Status