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wllmjoseph
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This is awesome news. Christianity is growing strong in China. God willing there will be one Catholic Church in China and not two. Currently there is the state approved Catholic Church and then there is the underground Catholic Church. The Chinese government appoints the bishops in the state approved Catholic Church while the underground Catholic Church’s bishops are appointed my the Magisterium. I recall reading a couple of articles years ago that 70% of the bishops that were appointed by the Chinese government also sought to have the approval of the Vatican.Cardinal John Tong of Hong Kong has said that the Vatican is close to an agreement with the Chinese government on the appointment of bishops for mainland China.
More…
For the Catholic Church to be able to reach an accord with the Chinese government would be a great blessing for the Catholic Church in China.
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Tomdstone
Guest
Because of the government policy on family size, I would guess that China has a problem with Church teaching on contraception.
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Brendan
Guest
That is correct. The bishops in most of the major cities have sought and\or received, approval of the Vatican.I recall reading a couple of articles years ago that 70% of the bishops that were appointed by the Chinese government also sought to have the approval of the Vatican. .
My brother lives in one of those cities ( on a multi year project for his work). That was one of the conditions of him moving there, that he be able to attend a legitimate Mass.
As a side note, the Cathedral in his city has an English language Mass, said by a priest from Wales. There is a community of Americans, Canadians, English and Irish who attend that afternoon Mass, and then do a pot luck dinner every Sunday.
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Pythagoras
Guest
Thanks Lord Jesus and Mama Mary!
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
What do Catholics in China do, practically speaking? If family planning up until recently has been one child only, and that is legally enforced, does the state have authority over practicing church members? It would seem to me that they would have to obey the strict laws. Does anyone know people who have had to make such decisions?Because of the government policy on family size, I would guess that China has a problem with Church teaching on contraception.
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wllmjoseph
Guest
It is my understanding in what I have read that families in China that have more than one child pay considerably more in taxes. Women who only have one child pay less in taxes and also have more government services available to them. In the large urban areas of China there have been reports of women being force to have abortions. It is very sad.What do Catholics in China do, practically speaking? If family planning up until recently has been one child only, and that is legally enforced, does the state have authority over practicing church members? It would seem to me that they would have to obey the strict laws. Does anyone know people who have had to make such decisions?
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
Can you tell me more about this?My brother lives in one of those cities ( on a multi year project for his work). That was one of the conditions of him moving there, that he be able to attend a legitimate Mass.
As a side note, the Cathedral in his city has an English language Mass, said by a priest from Wales. There is a community of Americans, Canadians, English and Irish who attend that afternoon Mass, and then do a pot luck dinner every Sunday.
I was in Beijing recently but did not attend mass on sunday because I just wasn’t sure that the churches belonging to the patriotic association have a valid mass. How does one make sure the mass is valid, inless it is an underground church that is not controlled by the communist party?
I would love to live in China for a few years but this issue is a big obstacle.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Yes, I have heard that too. But in the 70’s, when the law went into effect, there really was no choice. One child. (Yes, some exceptions, but I believe it was strictly enforced.) So what were the leaders of the Catholic Church saying? Obey the civil law? You are excused from church law? This must have been difficult for the Bishops.It is my understanding in what I have read that families in China that have more than one child pay considerably more in taxes. Women who only have one child pay less in taxes and also have more government services available to them. In the large urban areas of China there have been reports of women being force to have abortions. It is very sad.
Does anyone know if there are records from that time in China?
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Tomdstone
Guest
China was very strict on the one child policy. I read that they have loosened it slightly recently. I suspect that the Patriotic Catholic (state approved) priests did not give sermons against artificial contraception?Yes, I have heard that too. But in the 70’s, when the law went into effect, there really was no choice. One child. (Yes, some exceptions, but I believe it was strictly enforced.) So what were the leaders of the Catholic Church saying? Obey the civil law? You are excused from church law? This must have been difficult for the Bishops.
Does anyone know if there are records from that time in China?
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otjm
Guest
That and abortion. The one child policy has been carried out by abortion, and allegedly, infanticide. Last reading, China has started to figure out things are getting lopsided, and they have made some moves to go beyond one child. Not far, though.Because of the government policy on family size, I would guess that China has a problem with Church teaching on contraception.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
The 80’s were a time when thousands of Americans went to China to adopt baby girls who were given away, since sons were/are greatly preferred.That and abortion. The one child policy has been carried out by abortion, and allegedly, infanticide. Last reading, China has started to figure out things are getting lopsided, and they have made some moves to go beyond one child. Not far, though.
They changed the one child law earlier this year. Yes, all those one child families gave the country way too many boys. Now they are adults, the Chinese have to look outside for women to marry. I guess no one had the foresight to see this happening.
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otjm
Guest
I have wondered what type of chaos might break loose with that much testosterone… an internal revolution? War with someone else? It would not surprise me in the least to see bloodshed start.The 80’s were a time when thousands of Americans went to China to adopt baby girls who were given away, since sons were/are greatly preferred.
They changed the one child law earlier this year. Yes, all those one child families gave the country way too many boys. Now they are adults, the Chinese have to look outside for women to marry. I guess no one had the foresight to see this happening.
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August_Carlson
Guest
The deeper issue here is whether or not the Vatican would approve the practice of having the PRC government select who is qualified to be a bishop. Caesaropapism is not the practice of the Catholic Church. It wasn’t tolerated when Henry VIII was King of England, and it shouldn’t be tolerated now. Watch how this accord unfolds – and pray that the Vatican does not accede to the wishes of the communists. There is much that is at stake here.
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anon67074017
Guest
I am glad that communists can make an agreement with the Catholic Church. We should not let the communists dupe us though.
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August_Carlson
Guest
Have they reached an agreement? Has an accord been signed? I was unaware that it had reached completion. What are the terms? Anybody?
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wllmjoseph
Guest
At the present time there in not an accord between China and the Vatican. The Vatican is in a difficult position here. How can there be an accord between China and the Vatican with China’s strict policy on one child per family. Not to mention forced abortion. On the one hand it would be wonderful for their to be an accord. On the other hand the Church can not compromise it doctrines and teachings for the sake of having an accord with China.Have they reached an agreement? Has an accord been signed? I was unaware that it had reached completion. What are the terms? Anybody?
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otjm
Guest
The Church has an accord with Europe and the United States… and no doctrine changed, in spite of the hopes of certain members of Congress… and the administration… and the Supreme Court…At the present time there in not an accord between China and the Vatican. The Vatican is in a difficult position here. How can there be an accord between China and the Vatican with China’s strict policy on one child per family. Not to mention forced abortion. On the one hand it would be wonderful for their to be an accord. On the other hand the Church can not compromise it doctrines and teachings for the sake of having an accord with China.
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wllmjoseph
Guest
That is true. Your pint is valid. It is also true that there is a huge difference between China vs. Europe or the United States. In the west birth control is optional while in China birth control is sanctioned by the government and is enforced. In the west a woman is able terminate her pregnancy is she so chooses. She is not forced to terminate a pregnancy. In China there have been news stories of women being forcible taken to an abortion facility to terminate the pregnancy. In the west the government does not interfere in an individuals right to practice their faith to the extent that China does. I do acknowledge that the western governments are beginning to interfere in some areas or faith but not on the level of China.The Church has an accord with Europe and the United States… and no doctrine changed, in spite of the hopes of certain members of Congress… and the administration… and the Supreme Court…
If the Vatican has an accord with the Chinese government. What does that mean for the Catholic Church in China? Will an exception be made for Catholic women in China regarding birth control and abortion?
Initially I was excited when the story broke that the Vatican and the Chinese government were close to an accord. The idea of their being only one Catholic Church and that the church function in the open as opposed to being underground. My concern is that in the process of having an accord with China will the Vatican sacrifice it doctrines and values?
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otjm
Guest
No, there i not going to be any diminution or watering down of values. The church has never backed down on Faith and Morals, and it isn’t going to start now, 2000 years later.That is true. Your pint is valid. It is also true that there is a huge difference between China vs. Europe or the United States. In the west birth control is optional while in China birth control is sanctioned by the government and is enforced. In the west a woman is able terminate her pregnancy is she so chooses. She is not forced to terminate a pregnancy. In China there have been news stories of women being forcible taken to an abortion facility to terminate the pregnancy. In the west the government does not interfere in an individuals right to practice their faith to the extent that China does. I do acknowledge that the western governments are beginning to interfere in some areas or faith but not on the level of China.
If the Vatican has an accord with the Chinese government. What does that mean for the Catholic Church in China? Will an exception be made for Catholic women in China regarding birth control and abortion?
Initially I was excited when the story broke that the Vatican and the Chinese government were close to an accord. The idea of their being only one Catholic Church and that the church function in the open as opposed to being underground. My concern is that in the process of having an accord with China will the Vatican sacrifice it doctrines and values?
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