honor of women in islam

[ToddM]

Is their *any true, definitive * authority in Islam? I do not think that I am alone in wishing someone, or some body would stand up and clearly, loudly,plainly and definitively say what Islam is, if it is not indeed what some are saying and demonstrating, sometimes ‘rather violently’ what they at least believe it to be. I don’t mean more, ‘well, Islam isn’t like that’. I mean someone or a group of someones who have this as a primary and ongoing task.

Each day it becomes harder to avoid the conclusion that the violent ones are the apologists/‘evangelists’ for Islam.

Please, if Islam is not what they ‘say’ that it is, then someone within the (true?) Islamic community needs to wo/man up and say so.

If they already are, then where and who are they? I have been looking in an attempt to be fair.

I know the thread is about women in Islam, but the real issue is clearly communicating what Islam is and is not.

Just saying things like ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ just doesn’t cut
it.

Please, how can a person reasonably be accused of speaking in ignorance, and how can the potentially offended really take offense
if you are unwilling to communicate why and how the error is erroneous.

Please. I for one would like to believe the (bad?) Muslims are not the true ones. Sadly, experience and what hard won information I have been able to gather increasingly indicates that this is so.

Otherwise…

Please.

 

[coleta]

I for one would like to believe the (bad?) Muslims are not the true ones. Sadly, experience and what hard won information I have been able to gather increasingly indicates that this is so.

Ho woften do you interact with people of the Muslim faith?
Th eproblem is that people associate Islam with terrorists that they see on the news but they don’t take the time to talk to those who live in their neighborhoods. I for one think it is a clear reflection of the ignorance within our society.

Many of my friends are Muslim and I have been fortunate enough to witness the general appreciation that many of them have for humanity; those both like and unlike themselves.

 

[inJESUS]

Again, we must remember to differentiate between our nice muslim neighbor and about Islamic ideology…

 

[ToddM]

Ho woften do you interact with people of the Muslim faith?
Th eproblem is that people associate Islam with terrorists that they see on the news but they don’t take the time to talk to those who live in their neighborhoods. Of course, just like (we/us?) Catholics, they are certainly complete in the knowledge and practice of their faith to a wo/manI for one think it is a clear reflection of the ignorance within our society. ***‘The art of war is deception.’ Sun Tsu. That may not, and likely is not the case in every instance, but if you haven’t already, look into the (IslamIC/ist?) concept of ‘peace’. In the case of the more ‘kinetically inclined’ (adherents?) this is simply a stratagem, nothing more, and nothing less, at least until Islam is the sole faith/political system in the world. Is this true Islam? ***

Many of my friends are Muslim and I have been fortunate enough to witness the general appreciation that many of them have for humanity; see abovethose both like and unlike themselves.

I live and, God help me, help make the ‘news’.

I have, and , God help me again, likely will soon defend Muslims and Islam again. I would like to know what I am defending, and to be able to do so with a clear conscience.******

Regardless of the topic, I would like and am bound to defend the truth, whatever that is. I believe I know, imperfectly, who that is.

If Islam is a ‘religion of peace’, fine. If someone is in error regarding same, I would like to effectively communicate how and why this is so, and to forward a more accurate picture.

Conversely…

Look, God doesn’t like lies, he wants us to be charitable. Part of charity is justice. Part of justice is defending those who cannot defend themselves.

However, it is not only uncharitable, but insane to ‘defend’ wolves from sheep. (Those would be some really bad *** sheep)

Which, if either, is Islam?

I’m not asking about your Muslim friends, at least not in the typical way. ‘Nice’ is…nice. So what? I’ve seen too many treacheries to take these things at face value in some contexts.

Wise as serpents? I dunno.

It is not correct to assess a thing by those who profess that thing, if that were the case then *my * experience would unquestionably put Islam squarely in the ‘wolf’ category, no question.

You may take the individual adherents as a general indicator of effectiveness I suppose, but it would be just that, a generalization.

You have to look at the thing itself. I presume you are Catholic. Are we all capital s Saints? Are we all directly imputable for some of the more reprehensible occurrences w/in The Church?

Even if we all were, is that what the faith itself directs us to do?

Please, I’m tracking and appreciate that you seem to be attempting to be charitable as well, but I am still asking. Any responses to my actual line of questioning?

 

[ToddM]

Crickets and tumbleweeds.

 

[R_not]

To prove islam is not peaceful, or to show its atrocities is so easy. It isn’t in these backwards nations that these atrocities happen. There is not concerted effort within the umma to stop the atrocities to their own women, along with the atrocities done to infidels. Not one peep to stop - only ‘lip service’ to us and the excuses.

Honor killings on the rise in Pakistan - archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/12/11/pakistan.women/

Most pervasive in Pakistan:
gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Egyptian feminist faces death threats:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/015624.php

keep in mind that Aayan Hirsi Ali has to have 24 hour guard also.

the muslims have brought it to our lands, along with slavery and polygamy:

article on % of muslims and % of violence:
frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D

slavery:
jihadwatch.org/archives/018596.php

This article is especially good showing how they violent children in their slave trade
answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm

Slavery in Denver
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011826.php

polygamy in the Bronx:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/015625.php

polygamy in the UK:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016104.php

polygamy heading to our Western nations:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020146.php

 

[R_not]

Ho woften do you interact with people of the Muslim faith?
Th eproblem is that people associate Islam with terrorists that they see on the news but they don’t take the time to talk to those who live in their neighborhoods. I for one think it is a clear reflection of the ignorance within our society.

Many of my friends are Muslim and I have been fortunate enough to witness the general appreciation that many of them have for humanity; those both like and unlike themselves.

Why should we go into muslim neighborhoods? All we would get would be the deception that islam sanctions to tell us infidels about islam.

article on % of muslims and % of violence:
frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D

‘moderate muslim’ is a kafir term : frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=76B12F33-3165-47D1-80ED-C3F1ACD07D8A

Muslim responses to unpleasant Islamic facts:
islam-watch.org/Others/Muslim-Responses-to-Unpleasant-Islamic-Facts.htm

 

[ToddM]

Why should we go into muslim neighborhoods? All we would get would be the deception that islam sanctions to tell us infidels about islam.

article on % of muslims and % of violence:
frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D

‘moderate muslim’ is a kafir term : frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=76B12F33-3165-47D1-80ED-C3F1ACD07D8A

Muslim responses to unpleasant Islamic facts:
islam-watch.org/Others/Muslim-Responses-to-Unpleasant-Islamic-Facts.htm

This is exactly what I mean. It is *waaaaaaaaay *past time to start defending or stop denying. Any takers? Any Islamic apologist willing, let alone able to refute the increasingly more difficult denial that Islam *must *rule everything by any means? Do you know of anyone? ****

 

[Sister_Amy]

So if I am camping or fishing, I would have to worry about where the Qibla is? Or does that only apply to women? If so, why is a naked woman offensive and a man is not? What if you are on the boat and the wind turns it the wrong way?

I don’t really understand your post… what is the problem? Qibla is the direction of the Ka’ba, the way which Muslims face in prayer. All Muslims, that is–men and women.

I’d like to answer your question, and apologize for not having kept up, but if you can explain what you’re asking I’ll try to answer God willing.

 

[coleta]

Why should we go into muslim neighborhoods? All we would get would be the deception that islam sanctions to tell us infidels about islam.

It is a tragedy for the human race that one would make such terrible accusations towards his fellow man.
I do undersatand that I live in a very diverse community, and my youth might lead me to be somewhat naive. However, through my experiences with Islam, and I do have many, I have realized they are merely people.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Freedom in Islam. What is the final word, according to Islam, about someone who chooses to leave Islam?

There is no “final word” because situations depend on their circumstances. To overgeneralize would be disingenuous.

If one is in an Islamic country, and one is of another faith group, what , according to Islam, are their options?

By an “Islamic country,” are you referring to one which is governed only by Shari’ah? If that is the case, your question is entirely hypothetical because no such state exists.

According to the Koran, and the accepted Hadiths, do Muslim women have the right to refuse sexual congress with their husbands?

According to the Qur’an and the accepted Hadiths? This is not a matter of doctrine, it is an issue of law and legal rights. The answer is according to jurisprudence, and if a woman has a legitimate reason, then yes. Most scholars agree as well that a man does not have the right to refuse intercourse with his wife, either, without an acceptable excuse. Marriage makes intercourse lawful, that is the point.

If so, exactly under what circumstances?

During her period, while fasting, if it would compromise her honor, and if she is ill, to name a few.

How many times did the ‘Blind Sheik’ avoid prosecution in a Muslim court? How?

I’m sorry but I’m not sure what you’re referring to. Could you give me some more information?

 

[Sister_Amy]

when they turn their face to Qibla, isn’t their back toward Jerusalem at times, which happened to be the first Qibla of the Muslims? sorry but i just don’t get the depth of it.

So what if their back is toward Jerusalem at times? We face all kinds of different directions throughout the course of the day. So what?

 

[ToddM]

R_not;3744913:

Why should we go into muslim neighborhoods? All we would get would be the deception that islam sanctions to tell us infidels about islam.

It is a tragedy for the human race that one would make such terrible accusations towards his fellow man.
I do undersatand that I live in a very diverse community, and my youth might lead me to be somewhat naive. However, through my experiences with Islam, and I do have many, I have realized they are merely people.

When we express this ignorance, we pass it on to the youth who might express these opinions to classmates.
I have witnesses first hand the terrible effects that this can have. Ultimately, when Christians misunderstand Islam, Muslims misunderstand Christians. ***So it is all up to Christians then? ***

If you can’t accept this, read the Qu’ran. Keep in mind that it is similar to the Old Testament of the Bible. Because of this, some of what is written seems somewhat harsh, but in my studies, I have found similar occurances in both the Bible and in various Jewish texts. And it is best to read the actual book (not internet) because some sources are very unreliable.

How about someone who will explain/defend ‘nice’ Islam. I mean the faith itself. Seems kindof dodgy after our last exchange.

According to what I’ve studied, and Muslims I have known, you have to be literate in Arabic to read the Quran.

 

[Lapell]

There is no “final word” because situations depend on their circumstances. To overgeneralize would be disingenuous.

By an “Islamic country,” are you referring to one which is governed only by Shari’ah? If that is the case, your question is entirely hypothetical because no such state exists.

According to the Qur’an and the accepted Hadiths? This is not a matter of doctrine, it is an issue of law and legal rights. The answer is according to jurisprudence, and if a woman has a legitimate reason, then yes. Most scholars agree as well that a man does not have the right to refuse intercourse with his wife, either, without an acceptable excuse. Marriage makes intercourse lawful, that is the point.

During her period, while fasting, if it would compromise her honor, and if she is ill, to name a few.

I’m sorry but I’m not sure what you’re referring to. Could you give me some more information?

i think ToddM referred as Islamic countries those where the Muslims are the majority. For instance, in Chad, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya,Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Jordania, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bengladesh, Pakistan, Turkey. I suppose the answer would vary even then, wouldn’t it? Or would it not?

 

[Sister_Amy]

i think ToddM referred as Islamic countries those where the Muslims are the majority. For instance, in Chad, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya,Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Jordania, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bengladesh, Pakistan, Turkey. I suppose the answer would vary even then, wouldn’t it? Or would it not?

Yes it would, because these countries have dfiferent laws, and different cultures. But none of them rule by Islam entirely, so while I don’t even know what they would all do, what options a person would have, I’m sure that none is a case to exemplify Islam.

 

[Sister_Amy]

According to what I’ve studied, and Muslims I have known, you have to be literate in Arabic to read the Quran.

If that is the case, why are there so many English translations of the Qur’an?

 

[R_not]

R_not;3744913:

Why should we go into muslim neighborhoods? All we would get would be the deception that islam sanctions to tell us infidels about islam.

It is a tragedy for the human race that one would make such terrible accusations towards his fellow man.
I do undersatand that I live in a very diverse community, and my youth might lead me to be somewhat naive. However, through my experiences with Islam, and I do have many, I have realized they are merely people.

I have read the koran and so many other things about islam - about its ‘prophet’, its violent history both past and present and its sharia laws and also the hadiths. That is why I can also say that you trying to say that islam is equal to Judaism and Christianity is not true. It is more of the religion of mohammed - a pagan moon god religion of his time. And since he wanted to convert the Jews and Christians of his time but did not know the Bible - he screwed up the stories. That is why when you write ‘similar’ those stories are not the same as the Bible’s stories but what mohammed retold differently to meet his own intentions.

You all seem to have no problem ‘coming out’ when your image is all messed up, or when you want to claim you are the victims after your fellow muslims follow islam and slaughter more people.

there is no misunderstanding - there is a clash. Muslims want us to be either converted, dead or subjugated. What is so hard for us to understand about that?

I know muslims too. do you think I am in a vacuum? I work in a very liberal part of California that hires anyone and there are muslims here too. A lot of crimes in this area are also attributed to muslims.

And from some women muslims who have told me, ‘the USA is the only place where a muslim woman can divorce a man’. I suppose that will be until organizations such as CAIR get their wish and establish sharia law on our lands. They have also told me of the beatings that go on in their communities. These muslim women are sufi muslims - just so you know.

 

[Lapell]

R_not;3744913:

Why should we go into muslim neighborhoods? All we would get would be the deception that islam sanctions to tell us infidels about islam.

It is a tragedy for the human race that one would make such terrible accusations towards his fellow man.
I do undersatand that I live in a very diverse community, and my youth might lead me to be somewhat naive. However, through my experiences with Islam, and I do have many, I have realized they are merely people.

I can accept that there be people who simply don’t trust any Muslims because of bad experiences with a good number of “Muslims”, or even simply because of 9/11…
In practice, and I insist: in practice, maybe a number of Islamists and maybe a good number of Muslims have proved to be the way R_not has been describing them? I would not generalize, but even though R_not at times use quite emotional terms (like “whine”, for instance), it’s clear she had received very bad impressions from them and from her discoveries in the Qor’an, things about Islam, the hadiths, etc. So basically, having myself read a few things, I would not delete her warning calls.
Still, I would be very careful not to generalize. For instance, planten does believe only the arrogant and offensive ones will be punished, not the innocent ones. And I believe Sister Amy, for one, does believe there are many Muslims who actually are very decent (according to our Western views, I mean), and I personaqlly would think there ARE many.
God knows the truth, though. Nobody can hide it from Him. And He is the truth Himself…

 

[inJESUS]

So what if their back is toward Jerusalem at times? We face all kinds of different directions throughout the course of the day. So what?

hello i meant this : if the reason you should face the qibla is reverance, and that you cannot “urinate” facing the Qibla out of reverence, then about when urinating facing Jerusalem, and praying while your back is for Jerusalem? after all, it is a sacred place.

 

[Sister_Amy]

hello i meant this : if the reason you should face the qibla is reverance, and that you cannot “urinate” facing the Qibla out of reverence, then about when urinating facing Jerusalem, and praying while your back is for Jerusalem? after all, it is a sacred place.

Why would someone deliberately face Jerusalem while urinating?