honor of women in islam

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Here is the opinion in Muwatta Imam Malik:

Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab that Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan gave a judgment that the rapist had to pay the raped woman her bride-price.

Yahya said that he heard Malik say, “What is done in our community about the man who rapes a woman, virgin or non-virgin, if she is free, is that he must pay the bride-price of the like of her. If she is a slave, he must pay what he has diminished of her worth. The hadd-punishment in such cases is applied to the rapist, and there is no punishment applied to the raped woman. If the rapist is a slave, that is against his master unless he wishes to surrender him.”

Imam Malik had another opinion, that the proof of rape is that she reports it immediately, still in the state of being violated, and if that is the case then her word should be taken.
 
Angelos said:
Mohammad asked people to bring four witnesses because he knew that it was impossible to find four men that had witnessed Aisha’s acts in the desert. You know, we get this story from Aisha herself and there is nothing in her story about this bringing 4 witnesses. Where are you getting it from?

[quoteIt is a fact that Mohammad had many doubts about Aisha’s fidelity after this supposed slander and quitted taking Aisha with him while leading a military campaign.
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If it is a fact, then prove it.

She asked to go stay with her parents and felt slighted by her husband because of the doubts. But then came the revelation which proved her innocent. To say Muhammad doubted her after that is to say he disbelieved in the Qur’an.
 
Sister_Amy said:
I’m not sure if it is a hadith or an example of a Companion or jurist.

scratch that… it’s a hadith, I found it:

Narrated Wa’il ibn Hujr:

When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.

She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him).

When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.
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looks good, thanks. what hadith is that? do you have its name & chapter? 🙂
 
Sister_Amy said:
You know, we get this story from Aisha herself and there is nothing in her story about this bringing 4 witnesses. Where are you getting it from?
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HUH? You yourself said that the verse in the Koran requiring four witnesses for the conviction of a woman was revealed to declare Aisha’s innocence! I am getting it from the Koran! 😃
Sister_Amy said:
She asked to go stay with her parents and felt slighted by her husband because of the doubts. But then came the revelation which proved her innocent. To say Muhammad doubted her after that is to say he disbelieved in the Qur’an.
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I can say Mohammad doubted even after the revelation because I believe that Mohammad was the true revealer of that specific verse and all the other verses of the Koran! He personally maintained his doubts although he needed to proclaim Aisha innocent at least in the sight of the Islamic community for his own honour.
 
AgnosTheist said:
do you have any idea why some muslim countries require the victim to produce 4 witnesses instead of following that hadith?

perhaps they consider it as weak hadith? 🤷
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As a matter of fact, somebody asked this question to the sheikh in a class on the four madhabs–and the answer was pretty much that these “some muslim countries” aren’t really interested in following Shari’ah, they are interested in keeping power, and only use Islam to the extent it helps them maintain that objective.
 
Angelos said:
HUH? You yourself said that the verse in the Koran requiring four witnesses for the conviction of a woman was revealed to declare Aisha’s innocence! I am getting it from the Koran! 😃
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Oh, no, no, no. No, no no. This is almost funny. No… that’s not what I said.

There was A VERSE in the Qur’an which was revealed to declare Aisha’s innocence. But it wasn’t THAT one!! lol I quoted the actual verse on the last page–24:11.
I can say Mohammad doubted even after the revelation because I believe that Mohammad was the true revealer of that specific verse and all the other verses of the Koran! He personally maintained his doubts although he needed to proclaim Aisha innocent at least in the sight of the Islamic community for his own honour.
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But you don’t have proof… /listening.
 
mr. tomshaikh,u told that pre islamic arabic ppl buried new born girl.but if it is true then how can the arab ppl stil in the world?without women its procreation is impossible.so its a clear lie that they killed new born baby.maybe some of them did that.and you see?in our so called modern world specially in muslim countries women is living like a animal.the life is not a life of free ppl but its slavery
 
Sister_Amy said:
Oh, no, no, no. No, no no. This is almost funny. No… that’s not what I said.

There was A VERSE in the Qur’an which was revealed to declare Aisha’s innocence. But it wasn’t THAT one!! lol I quoted the actual verse on the last page–24:11.
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The verse below was meant to defend Aisha against the charges of adultery:

24:4. And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers.

I do not believe that the verse above and verse 11 (which you claim to directly address Aisha’s being slandered by some Muslims) occur in the same surah coincidentally!
Sister_Amy said:
But you don’t have proof… /listening.
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… and you have proof that Mohammad stopped approaching Aisha with doubt after the so-called revelation?

Actually, Islamic history recounts how Mohammad started to cast losts after the incident of "slander"so as to decide which of the wives would accompany him during his military campaigns.
 
Booklover said:
Wow! You keep ignoring posts and not replying to them. Now you’re accusing R-not of doing wrong because her views do not agree with yours!
And yes, you do defend Islam, so if the shoe fits, wear it!
Vickie
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Booklover, I feel the way R_not generalizes everything and would not quote the verses completely and in context makes her testimony uneasy for me to rely on, that’s all.
Now, I said elsewhere that I was leaving for that day. I hadn’t finished my duties here, so that’s the only reason why you didn’t read other posts from me. Rather funny to have a fellow Catholic spreading false impressions like you did. I don’t find it respectful, for one thing.
Too bad you consider me an enemy. If Jesus Himself told you the same thing I did, do you think you would have reacted otherwise? Where is your sense of your being a disciple of Jesus the Christ?
Frankly, I certainly don’t feel it in your posts.
To warn the people against serious threats is one thing, and believeit or not I take them into account, and seriously. But to generalize to all of Islam and all of the Muslims is to me putting everyone, the innocent and the guilty, in the same bag.
Can you read the minds? Can you read the hearts? and the heart of hearts? The way you talked about me right here, I’m afraid I can’t believe so!
 
Sister_Amy said:
I live in North Carolina. Why?
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Just because it occurs to me that the practice of Islam in North America and Europe might be different from how it is in Saudi Arabia and Middle East… or at least not as… aggressive, say.
 
tomshaikh said:
And do you know that divorce is the origination in Islam first.
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Now that’s quite something… you mean to say that divorce existed in Islam earlier than in King Henry the Eight’s times? and that he would have taken the custom from Islam? But say, in proper Islamic Law, do you think he would have been granted the divorce?
 
Sister_Amy said:
“some muslim countries” aren’t really interested in following Shari’ah, they are interested in keeping power, and only use Islam to the extent it helps them maintain that objective.
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how does penalizing a rape victim keep someone in power? 🤷
 
Lapell said:
Booklover, I feel the way R_not generalizes everything and would not quote the verses completely and in context makes her testimony uneasy for me to rely on, that’s all.
Now, I said elsewhere that I was leaving for that day. I hadn’t finished my duties here, so that’s the only reason why you didn’t read other posts from me. Rather funny to have a fellow Catholic spreading false impressions like you did. I don’t find it respectful, for one thing.
Too bad you consider me an enemy. If Jesus Himself told you the same thing I did, do you think you would have reacted otherwise? Where is your sense of your being a disciple of Jesus the Christ?
Frankly, I certainly don’t feel it in your posts.
To warn the people against serious threats is one thing, and believeit or not I take them into account, and seriously. But to generalize to all of Islam and all of the Muslims is to me putting everyone, the innocent and the guilty, in the same bag.
Can you read the minds? Can you read the hearts? and the heart of hearts? The way you talked about me right here, I’m afraid I can’t believe so!
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Personally, I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill! I have never declared you my enemy. You’re the one saying it.

I still reiterate that I’ve said nothing to get you so upset and can’t understand why you’ve taken such an attitude. I’m sorry if my posts have distressed you.

Vickie
 
Booklover said:
Personally, I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill! I have never declared you my enemy. You’re the one saying it.

I still reiterate that I’ve said nothing to get you so upset and can’t understand why you’ve taken such an attitude. I’m sorry if my posts have distressed you.

Vickie
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Well,you didn’t sound especially friendly!
 
Booklover said:
Wow! You keep ignoring posts and not replying to them. Now you’re accusing R-not of doing wrong because her views do not agree with yours!

And yes, you do defend Islam, so if the shoe fits, wear it!

Vickie
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And this? Despite what I said I was saying what I said for, you don’t seem to have taken what I said into account. Why?
 
Booklover, maybe I am indeed overreacting. I think you would not have been acting so differently if it had been you.
Maybe I would need to read posts of yours in topics other than about Islam or Muslims and things related to them to have a better idea of who you are…
 
And I guess the reason I overreacted again today is quite simple: I hadn’t read your post of yesterday at 12:33 p.m. on the other thread: "Don’t you see the irony of this (…) " I hope this explains a bit.
Also, I live in Eastern Canada, not in the Prairies or in B.C.: for instance, right now it’s 2:05 p.m., so… no, it’s not in Ontario nor in Quebec (although i was born there, a few miles east of Montreal actually), it’s an hour later from those provinces. So I think it’s 5 hours later than Pacific time…
So, Booklover, I certainly wish to see you in a better light some day, God willing… ( Why would he not will it, really? )
 
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