Honoring Mary is Biblical, according to the bible.

[twopekinguys]

As I interact with the different catholics, I find some very kind and loving toward non-catholic Christians. I find other anti-protestant and quite unkind. Knowing that they are all catholics don’t tell me which ones love with the love of the Lord and which are unkind bigots. It’s only in conversation that it becomes obvious. It’s not fair to judge anyone by what group they say they belong to.

You’re right, we can’t and shouldn’t judge anyone by the group they belong to, but it helps in knowing where they are coming from.

Unfortunately, it seems that proallen is doing just that, calling all Catholics Mary worshippers, Idolators, based on what he has “seen”. When pressed for details of what he has seen, he refuses (multiple times) to provide any information. He just keeps saying “I saw it.” That’s fine, tell me about it then, explain to me where it was, etc. Let me research it and see what I can find out about it.

I remember questioning him about his statement,pointing out inconsistencies, and he automatically jumped into “are you calling me a liar” mode.

It is a little hard to have a meaningful discussion with an individual that just makes vague,unverifiable or unfounded statements, and refuses to give any details of the situation so it can be addressed.

Check out the thread “Mother Mary”, and I think you will see what we are getting at.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=435725

 

[Cristian_B]

This Catholic does

This addresses “can they hear us”:

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

I’m not going to argue against tradition. It is written in the Bible that the saints do not go to Heaven when they die. This should already blow off the theory of saints hearing our prayers in Heaven.

 

[regression]

I’m not going to argue against tradition. It is written in the Bible that the saints do not go to Heaven when they die. This should already blow off the theory of saints hearing our prayers in Heaven.

I seem to remember a thread recently where the discussion was around sleep vs dying, or something to that effect. I assume that is what you are referring to?

 

[twopekinguys]

I’m not going to argue against tradition. It is written in the Bible that the saints do not go to Heaven when they die. This should already blow off the theory of saints hearing our prayers in Heaven.

I would be interested in reading the scripture you are referring to.

Quote it please.

 

[Cristian_B]

I would be interested in reading the scripture you are referring to.

Quote it please.

“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep but I am going there to wake him up”. “Jesus had been speaking of his death…”. But later he says making it clearer: “Lazarus is dead”. You find this, as you probably know, in John 11:11-14

 

[twopekinguys]

“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep but I am going there to wake him up”. “Jesus had been speaking of his death…”. But later he says making it clearer: “Lazarus is dead”. You find this, as you probably know, in John 11:11-14

You have to stop and think that Jesus has/had the keys to heaven. No one could enter until he entered first. Plus, Jesus raised Lazarus, so I don’t think this scripture really says what you are trying to portray.

However, let’s look at Luke 23:43
43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Do you think Jesus would have someone dead/not alive, in “paradise”?

If they’re dead, why are they in paradise?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Why is it so important to know what denomination a person belongs to???

Dokimas, Are we not allow to ask questions here,I was thinking that was what this board was for,but if you are running this board,I will do as you said just let me know

 

[Cristian_B]

You have to stop and think that Jesus has/had the keys to heaven. No one could enter until he entered first. Plus, Jesus raised Lazarus, so I don’t think this scripture really says what you are trying to portray.

However, let’s look at Luke 23:43
43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Do you think Jesus would have someone dead/not alive, in “paradise”?

If they’re dead, why are they in paradise?

You know the story, but I’ll say it again. When Jesus was in the cross suffering in pain, one of the criminals that were crucified with Him said: “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom”. One thing to notice is that the criminal (I believe he was a thief, so I’ll call him thief) was looking forward to Christ’s Second coming, 'when you come into Your kingdom’. That happens at the Second Coming. So the thief wasn’t talking about the moment of his death.

Also, coma’s weren’t inspired. The original text in Greek was without any punctuation. There are many cases in which we see punctuation isn’t inspired. It didn’t come from God but men added it. So let’s see some examples:

1. • This is one of the best examples. *In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. ~*Matthew 28:1 KJV The Sabbath ends at sunset, so the end of the Sabbath and dawn are twelve hours apart, so is there any reason for this ‘contradiction’? The translation. By reorganizing the last verse of Matthew 27 and the first verse of Matthew 28, this ‘contradiction’ disappears. In Matthew 27:62, a request for a guard on the tomb was made on the Sabbath and that the request was for a guard until the third day. By simply moving the text “in the end of the Sabbath,” from the beginning of Matthew 28:1 to the end of Matthew 27:66, which is where it should have been placed when punctuation and chapters and verse were added, we would have the following: “So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch in the end of the sabbath.” ~Matthew 27:66 “As it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” ~Matthew 28:1 This makes a lot more sense to me. Does it to you? Punctuation is not inspired by God.
   • Another example: “So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.” ~Acts 19:12 KJV There is an error here. Handkerchiefs or aprons can’t be sick. A coma is missing; it should have been put after the word ‘sick’ but it’s missing. Another reason why punctuation isn’t inspired by God.
   Perhaps there are other examples, but my point is that the punctuation in Luke 23:43 isn’t correct because the punctuation isn’t inspired by God, but the words are. So the problem in that verse is that the come is before ‘today’, and it should be after ‘today’.
   
   As I said, in the original text in Greek there was no punctuation, so the text was something like this:
   
   I say to you today you will be with Me in paradise
   
   This is the wrong punctuation: “I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise” while the right one should be this one: “I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise”. Interesting what a coma could do, right?
   
   Here is a list of reasons why I [and possibly others as well] believe the coma was not placed correctly:
   • Jesus said after the Resurrection (that means, the day in which He said that to the thief already passed) to Mary: “I have not yet ascended to My Father”. ~John 20:17 How can that be? If He hasn’t ascended yet to His Father, how could He be that day with the thief in paradise?
   • Also, the way Jesus died was a very special way. He gave his spirit. It means that He chose when to die. But not all have this ability. The crucifixion is very cruel and it takes days to die; therefore the thief didn’t die in the same day he asked Jesus to remember Him. So we can’t know whether the thief actually died on that day. He could have died later.
   • Can Jesus contradict Himself? I don’t think so. He will take all the blameless persons to Heaven ‘*on the last day’ *when He 'comes again’, as He said… Certainly not immediately after death.
   • Also, Jesus didn’t go to Paradise that day. He stayed in the tomb. Just like Adam had to enter a deep sleep in order for Eve to be created so does the second Adam ‘enter a deep sleep’ [death] in order for Eve [the Church] to be created. According to Paul Paradise is in Heaven, not under the Earth. Jesus did not ascend yet to Heaven (to the Father) so how could have He met the thief on that day if He wasn’t in Paradise? (ask me more and I’ll provide scriptures for that)
   So the dead in Christ are not yet in Paradise, but they will be, when Jesus comes.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’m not going to argue against tradition. It is written in the Bible that the saints do not go to Heaven when they die. This should already blow off the theory of saints hearing our prayers in Heaven.

Can you please tell me the verse that will said ST< do not go to heaven

 

[T_More]

• Jesus said after the Resurrection (that means, the day in which He said that to the thief already passed) to Mary: “I have not yet ascended to My Father”. ~John 20:17 How can that be? If He hasn’t ascended yet to His Father, how could He be that day with the thief in paradise?
• Also, the way Jesus died was a very special way. He gave his spirit. It means that He chose when to die. But not all have this ability. The crucifixion is very cruel and it takes days to die; therefore the thief didn’t die in the same day he asked Jesus to remember Him. So we can’t know whether the thief actually died on that day. He could have died later.

John 19:32-33; “The soldiers therefore came, and broke the legs of the first man, and of the other man who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.” This was to hasten death, which would come very quickly after this was performed. So yes, both thieves would’ve died that day

• Can Jesus contradict Himself? I don’t think so. He will take all the blameless persons to Heaven ‘*on the last day’ *when He 'comes again’, as He said… Certainly not immediately after death.
• Also, Jesus didn’t go to Paradise that day. He stayed in the tomb. Just like Adam had to enter a deep sleep in order for Eve to be created so does the second Adam ‘enter a deep sleep’ [death] in order for Eve [the Church] to be created. According to Paul Paradise is in Heaven, not under the Earth. Jesus did not ascend yet to Heaven (to the Father) so how could have He met the thief on that day if He wasn’t in Paradise? (ask me more and I’ll provide scriptures for that)

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,", 1 Peter 3:18-19. It seems entirely appropriate that Christ would’ve said this to the thief from this scripture. /COLOR]

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas, Are we not allow to ask questions here,I was thinking that was what this board was for,but if you are running this board,I will do as you said just let me know

I’ll ignore the foolish part of your post and say of course it’s okay to ask a question once. But over and over and over again trying to make a point is a bit much (and that point seems to judge a person). BTW, is it okay by you that someone not answer a question asked of them?

 

[Proallen]

You have to stop and think that Jesus has/had the keys to heaven. No one could enter until he entered first. Plus, Jesus raised Lazarus, so I don’t think this scripture really says what you are trying to portray.

However, let’s look at Luke 23:43
43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Do you think Jesus would have someone dead/not alive, in “paradise”?

If they’re dead, why are they in paradise?

Good post. We finally agree on something!!

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’ll ignore the foolish part of your post and say of course it’s okay to ask a question once. But over and over and over again trying to make a point is a bit much (and that point seems to judge a person). BTW, is it okay by you that someone not answer a question asked of them?

Well the people you know just do not answer any question but you know what if you will just tell me you rules may be this dumb cathloic I can help with all your problems.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’ll ignore the foolish part of your post and say of course it’s okay to ask a question once. But over and over and over again trying to make a point is a bit much (and that point seems to judge a person). BTW, is it okay by you that someone not answer a question asked of them?

Well I think that is up to them and NOT you

 

[twopekinguys]

You know the story, but I’ll say it again. When Jesus was in the cross suffering in pain, one of the criminals that were crucified with Him said: “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom”. One thing to notice is that the criminal (I believe he was a thief, so I’ll call him thief) was looking forward to Christ’s Second coming, 'when you come into Your kingdom’. That happens at the Second Coming. So the thief wasn’t talking about the moment of his death.

Also, coma’s weren’t inspired. The original text in Greek was without any punctuation. There are many cases in which we see punctuation isn’t inspired. It didn’t come from God but men added it. So let’s see some examples:

1. • This is one of the best examples. *In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. ~*Matthew 28:1 KJV The Sabbath ends at sunset, so the end of the Sabbath and dawn are twelve hours apart, so is there any reason for this ‘contradiction’? The translation. By reorganizing the last verse of Matthew 27 and the first verse of Matthew 28, this ‘contradiction’ disappears. In Matthew 27:62, a request for a guard on the tomb was made on the Sabbath and that the request was for a guard until the third day. By simply moving the text “in the end of the Sabbath,” from the beginning of Matthew 28:1 to the end of Matthew 27:66, which is where it should have been placed when punctuation and chapters and verse were added, we would have the following: “So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch in the end of the sabbath.” ~Matthew 27:66 “As it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” ~Matthew 28:1 This makes a lot more sense to me. Does it to you? Punctuation is not inspired by God.
   • Another example: “So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.” ~Acts 19:12 KJV There is an error here. Handkerchiefs or aprons can’t be sick. A coma is missing; it should have been put after the word ‘sick’ but it’s missing. Another reason why punctuation isn’t inspired by God.
   Perhaps there are other examples, but my point is that the punctuation in Luke 23:43 isn’t correct because the punctuation isn’t inspired by God, but the words are. So the problem in that verse is that the come is before ‘today’, and it should be after ‘today’.
   
   As I said, in the original text in Greek there was no punctuation, so the text was something like this:
   
   I say to you today you will be with Me in paradise
   
   This is the wrong punctuation: “I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise” while the right one should be this one: “I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise”. Interesting what a coma could do, right?
   
   Here is a list of reasons why I [and possibly others as well] believe the coma was not placed correctly:
   • Jesus said after the Resurrection (that means, the day in which He said that to the thief already passed) to Mary: “I have not yet ascended to My Father”. ~John 20:17 How can that be? If He hasn’t ascended yet to His Father, how could He be that day with the thief in paradise?
   • Also, the way Jesus died was a very special way. He gave his spirit. It means that He chose when to die. But not all have this ability. The crucifixion is very cruel and it takes days to die; therefore the thief didn’t die in the same day he asked Jesus to remember Him. So we can’t know whether the thief actually died on that day. He could have died later.
   • Can Jesus contradict Himself? I don’t think so. He will take all the blameless persons to Heaven ‘*on the last day’ *when He 'comes again’, as He said… Certainly not immediately after death.
   • Also, Jesus didn’t go to Paradise that day. He stayed in the tomb. Just like Adam had to enter a deep sleep in order for Eve to be created so does the second Adam ‘enter a deep sleep’ [death] in order for Eve [the Church] to be created. According to Paul Paradise is in Heaven, not under the Earth. Jesus did not ascend yet to Heaven (to the Father) so how could have He met the thief on that day if He wasn’t in Paradise? (ask me more and I’ll provide scriptures for that)
   So the dead in Christ are not yet in Paradise, but they will be, when Jesus comes.

1. 
   Sorry, but I have to disagree with your interpretation, especially with regard to where you want to place punctuation.
   
   If Jesus was on the cross, knowing he was about to die (which he did know), why would he say he is telling someone this “today”? It was obvious he was going to die that day. Why make it sound like he’s saying (in todays language) I’m telling you this today (like it could change tomorrow) that you’ll be with me in paradise, as opposed to I’m telling you…Today(as in this day) you will be in paradise.
   
   By the way, the man you are referring to is often referred to as the “good thief”. If you remember, the other one didn’t want anything to do with it all.
   
   Now, Jesus did die that day, and he decended to the place of the dead. This was to free the souls of those who had died before his crucifixion, and to take them to heaven. No one could enter before him since he had the keys. So yes, that day, Jesus, the good thief, and all those waiting to go to heaven did go to paradise that day.
   
   Jesus rising from the dead on the 3rd day is something totally and seperate. You know that the number 3 is very prominent in the Bible. Trinity, etc., so I can see why he would wait until the 3rd day to rise.

 

[Cristian_B]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your interpretation, especially with regard to where you want to place punctuation.

I hope we can disagree peacefully.

If Jesus was on the cross, knowing he was about to die (which he did know), why would he say he is telling someone this “today”? It was obvious he was going to die that day. Why make it sound like he’s saying (in todays language) I’m telling you this today (like it could change tomorrow) that you’ll be with me in paradise, as opposed to I’m telling you…Today(as in this day) you will be in paradise.

That is, because He wanted to make emphasis.Like ‘I’m telling you right now, you will be with Me in Paradise’. Also, Paradise is in Heaven, and Jesus didn’t ascend to Heaven. This is where the whole theory crumbles.

By the way, the man you are referring to is often referred to as the “good thief”. If you remember, the other one didn’t want anything to do with it all.

Okay then. Thank you. I just forgot his ‘nickname’.

Now, Jesus did die that day, and he decended to the place of the dead. This was to free the souls of those who had died before his crucifixion, and to take them to heaven. No one could enter before him since he had the keys. So yes, that day, Jesus, the good thief, and all those waiting to go to heaven did go to paradise that day.

Jesus did not.

Jesus rising from the dead on the 3rd day is something totally and seperate. You know that the number 3 is very prominent in the Bible. Trinity, etc., so I can see why he would wait until the 3rd day to rise.

I see. But death is a sleep. He slept the sleep of death those days while He was in the grave.

There are about a dozen resurrections in the Bible. I’ll take as an example Lazarus. Let’s say he was in a sort of Paradise (as you say) until Jesus died. He was resting, in a very comfortable house (supposing He was good) and eating grapes and so on, and then Jesus resurrects him. He’d say: 'Thank you Lord! I was just living a dream and you had to bring me here. Let’s say he went to Hell. He’d say: Oh my Lord, thank you for taking me out of that fiery place! But there is no exclamation about that. He didn’t say anything, because he knew not anything. Death is a dreamless sleep. Don’t you think that at least one of the dozen of people that were resurrected would have made a remark or something about death? They didn’t because they slept, and they knew nothing. Why would Jesus take someone from Paradise (or Abraham’s bossom, whatever it is called) and bring him on earth or why would he take someone from hell and we don’t hear any exclamation or a ‘thank you Lord’ from the resurrected person? It’s because it is neither. They are sleeping, just as Jesus said.

 

[Dokimas]

Well I think that is up to them and NOT you

No duh. However I thought you’d like to know how obnoxious and revealing of not so good motives it is when you and other keep trying to force others to answer questions. BTW, it’s up to them to answer or not, NOT up to you.

 

[twopekinguys]

I hope we can disagree peacefully.

Absolutely

That is, because He wanted to make emphasis.Like ‘I’m telling you right now, you will be with Me in Paradise’. Also, Paradise is in Heaven, and Jesus didn’t ascend to Heaven. This is where the whole theory crumbles.

Of course he ascended to heaven. He went to the place of the dead to release the souls of those who had died before he came. Remember, no one could enter paradise until he let them in. He had the keys afterall. Kind of hard not to let those souls into paradise if he wasn’t there.

Remember later, where he appeared with Moses and Elija. If he had not released their souls from the place of the dead, they couldn’t have appeared with him.

I think there may be a little confusion here between Jesus ascending to heaven with the souls of those that had died earlier, and Jesus’ actual ascencion to his reign in heaven before the second coming.

Okay then. Thank you. I just forgot his ‘nickname’.

Hey, it happens to all of us.

Jesus did not.

Jesus didn’t die on the cross that day? I don’t think that is what scripture says. In fact, I believe scripture even talks about some suprise that he died on the cross so quickly.

I see. But death is a sleep. He slept the sleep of death those days while He was in the grave.

See, this is where we disagree. Once Jesus’ earthly body died, we believe his work continued. As in, releasing the souls from the place of the dead.

There are about a dozen resurrections in the Bible. I’ll take as an example Lazarus. Let’s say he was in a sort of Paradise (as you say) until Jesus died. He was resting, in a very comfortable house (supposing He was good) and eating grapes and so on, and then Jesus resurrects him. He’d say: 'Thank you Lord! I was just living a dream and you had to bring me here. Let’s say he went to Hell. He’d say: Oh my Lord, thank you for taking me out of that fiery place! But there is no exclamation about that. He didn’t say anything, because he knew not anything. Death is a dreamless sleep. Don’t you think that at least one of the dozen of people that were resurrected would have made a remark or something about death? They didn’t because they slept, and they knew nothing. Why would Jesus take someone from Paradise (or Abraham’s bossom, whatever it is called) and bring him on earth or why would he take someone from hell and we don’t hear any exclamation or a ‘thank you Lord’ from the resurrected person? It’s because it is neither. They are sleeping, just as Jesus said.

First let me say, that I in no way implied that Lazarus was in any type of paradise situation. He was in the place of the dead. Remember, not being in the presence of Christ after death is no type of paradise. If it was a such a good place, there would be no need or want to ascend into heaven.

Why would he exclaim anything? If Lazarus were to say Man, that was Great!, or Man, that was rotten, I experienced this, or I experienced that, then people would start looking to lazarus for teachings instead of Jesus. Do you thnk Jesus would have wanted that?

As far as Jesus saying he was sleeping, I believe it to be in a metaphorical sense. He was explaining that just as we rise from sleep, we will rise from death, with him, in him, and through him.

Since this thread is really about Mary, I really don’t want to derail it any further, out of respect for the OP.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christian,

I really think it goes back to how you understand Christ, your Christology. The Book of Maccabees says it is good to pray for the dead.

Having seen your comments and also the lack of comprehension of posters’ exchange with you, it makes me wonder what you believe Christ is and Who He is, and what His mission means for us, as well as what you think a church should be. Or do you think your faith is more individualistic without a church…

Scripture and church go together…church represented in Tradition, the people. Since the beginning of Christianity, with the great Jewish custom of breaking of the bread among the Jewish family for God’s blessing on them and their progenity, believers always held the Blessed Mother in great esteem and veneration.

It took the Church 2,000 years to proclaim Mary as the Immaculate Conception, her constitution at her conception was already yes to God’s will and the avoidance of sin.

We don’t have shot gun theologies about Mary.

And yes, the Tradition of the Church, drawing on the faith of the people, and the many witnesses of grace people have experienced in their Christian life – meaning the glory is for Christ – with Mary, can proclaim new insights and truths about members of its church, including Mary.

You have a 2,000 year old gap of understanding the tradition of faith down through the ages, as well as the countless testimonies of great help provided by our Blessed Mother. She as well is the one who makes us not only a church, but a family.

Yesterday I went to Mass and saw two statues in the back of the chapel…one of Mary and one of Joseph…these are artistic expressions pertaining to the ancient exhortation in Sacred Scripture that God is most happy with us when we love our neighbor as brethren.

You have to know the difference as to what is liturgy and what is veneration.

 

[Bill_Pick]

No duh. However I thought you’d like to know how obnoxious and revealing of not so good motives it is when you and other keep trying to force others to answer questions. BTW, it’s up to them to answer or not, NOT up to you.

Dokimas, How long have you been making the rules here, and who die and put you in charge, I missed that part,I was thinking this was a Q and A froum,Thanks for let ing me know you have your rules