Honoring my future Roman Catholic in-laws

[Advocatus_Fidei]

So essentially, Thomas, she wouldn’t be violating her promise if we raised them Episcopalian because of my “like obligation because of his her own Christian commitment?” This is important to me because like someone said earlier, I don’t want her to wake up one morning and feel guilty about it.

She is essentially leaving her church for mine yes, I’m sorry that wasn’t more obvious, I think I only mentioned it once. We will be worshiping at my church. Dispite this we still feel its important for her family’s sake that this all be kosher with the RCC (ie. can be a godparent)

She cant have it both ways.

If she officially renounces her Catholic Faith the marriage will be valid but she will never be able to do anything to do with the Catholic Faith as she will be a self professed heretic and thus excommunicated by her own choice, a state in which if she dies unrepentant will result in her been condemned to hell.

Whether or not she can be a godparent or which catholic hymns to use in the wedding is the least of her problems.

 

[nhylan]

If she officially renounces her Catholic Faith the marriage will be valid but she will never be able to do anything to do with the Catholic Faith as she will be a self professed heretic and thus excommunicated by her own choice, a state in which if she dies unrepentant will result in her been condemned to hell.

to raise your children in the true Faith

Advocatus, talking to you is like punching sand. I’ve been more than polite, I’ve been more than humble yet time and time again you just don’t get it. I doubt this will do anything to change that fact. The fact you think that she would be condemned to hell doesn’t matter, and it specifically wouldn’t matter to her if she left the RCC.

I’m fairly certain that it was made clear earlier in the thread that your comments about the above and those like that aren’t really relevant to this conversation. I’m also fairly certain that you will ignore this post and continue blithly on your merry way.

I have respected your faith, I except the same in return.

While it is nice and noble to do this, you need to consider the implications of which I am quite sure you are now aware. You are setting yourself up for a future of pain if you mislead your in-laws into thinking that she is going to remain in any way a Catholic. It is not possible to be “sort of” Catholic. Either she is - or she isn’t. This means - when she attends Mass with them she will no longer be allowed to receive Holy Communion. Does she realize what she is about to give up? She will not be a Catholic any more, and will be unable to present herself as one. How is that going to sit with your in-laws after you put on appearances at the wedding that she will somehow keep her “Catholic-ness”?

You have to spend the rest of your lives with the decisions you make right now. And while it is a very thoughtful thing to do for your in-laws, it is really quite disingenuous to make it appear that she will remain a Catholic when in fact she never will be one again.

~Liza

I very much see the logic in this myself. It it definitely worth thinking about.

 

[1ke]

I’m not sure if you read his whole post, but a Catholic Priest is going to convalidate the marriage at the ceremony it’s self. Do you honestly beleive this would be possible if they didn’t have permission from their Bishop?

God bless,

If the Bishop gives permission for a mixed marriage and dispensation from Catholic form, the priest can attend the marriage as a witness for the Church. He does not preside. He does not witness the vows. And, the marriage in such a case is valid, there is nothing to convalidate. Giving the couple a blessing is NOT a convalidation. Many people refer to having their marriage “blessed” but that is a colloquialism, not a canonical term. A convalidation is the exchanging of consent in the Catholic form, not the reception of a blessing from a priest.

If the couple does not have permission from the Bishop for a mixed marriage and a dispensation from form the priest **cannot **convalidate the marriage. In the convalidation process, the dispensation from the Bishop is required and the couple then exchanges consent in the Catholic form.

---

OP, I encourage you and your fiancee to visit her parish priest, complete premarital preparation, complete the paperwork for the proper dispensations, and get married in your church as planned.

 

[1ke]

This is what I didn’t want this thread to turn into. The original topic is how to include some Roman Catholic aspects into a tradition Episcopal wedding ceremony. Please don’t worry about the validity of our marriage in the eyes of the RCC. We aren’t worried, so neither should you.

I am sorry that you believed you could come onto a Catholic forum and ask practicing Catholics how to help you plan invalid marriage. Helping others sin is also a sin.

It is possible for her to marry in your church with a dispensation. If she chooses not to do so, your marriage will be invalid. I’m sure her “very” Catholic parents will be distressed over that.

 

[1ke]

Manualman, thank you for your incredibly clear and understanding posting. That is an interesting idea.

So how would we make this at least a valid wedding in the RCC? Or can a marriage only be both valid and a sacrament?

Make an appointment with her priest. Complete premarital preparation. The priest will help with premarital paperwork including the permission for mixed marriage and the dispensation from Catholic form.

If you do not receive the dispensation and permission, a Catholic priest will not attend your wedding nor will he give a “blessing” at it. A priest is not allowed to witness an invalid marriage.

 

[1ke]

That’s why I thought the only option left was the ‘nuclear’ one where she formally defects from catholicism (which it seems she functionally intends to do anyways).

The Church issued a recent addendum to Canon Law on this. Formal defection no longer releases one from the canon law obligation to marry according to Catholic marriage laws.

 

[1ke]

She is essentially leaving her church for mine yes, I’m sorry that wasn’t more obvious, I think I only mentioned it once. We will be worshiping at my church. Dispite this we still feel its important for her family’s sake that this all be kosher with the RCC (ie. can be a godparent)

Whether she marries according to the Catholic laws on marriage (and thus has a valid marraige) or not, she could not be a godparent to a Catholic child if she is not a practicing Catholic in good standing. That would mean she would need to be in a valid marriage, attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days, and follow the laws of the Church. Sounds to me she plans to reject the Catholic Church, even join yours. She could not be a godparent in such a circumstance.

Maybe she doesn’t really understand her Catholic faith. Have you thought of what you will do if one day she rediscovers it and want to practice the faith? That ofetn happens when parents die, children are born, or other major life changing events occur.

 

[1ke]

If she officially renounces her Catholic Faith the marriage will be valid but she will never be able

This is no longer true. The Vatican recently revised the canons related to formal defection and the Catholic form of marriage.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

This is no longer true. The Vatican recently revised the canons related to formal defection and the Catholic form of marriage.

Thats good, that was long overdue.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

I have known of several people who have married in a situation such as yours (“casual”
Catholic marries/converts to Protestant.) Then one day, the Catholic wakes up, thru
study, remembering experiences in the Church, watching family live in the faith, or
other “triggers”. None of the experieces were easy or comfortable and much agony in
a couple of cases. So be prepared. Some did have a good outcome, but it was that
the non-Catholic converted to Catholic, and the Catholic returned.
Remember that you are starting a journey together and it is inevitable that the two of
you “grow”. You may think that you’ve figured out how you will deal with everything,
but one’s past experiences (hers in a devout Catholic family) have a way of taking you
in directions you might not have envisioned.
By the way, it can happen in marriages with “casual” Catholic and devout Catholic as
well.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

So you really REALLY don’t have an issue with your girlfriend living in a state of sin?! Do you realize that it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to remain in an invalid marriage if they are aware of it? Why would you not care more for the state of her soul? That is a very worrying trend to start out a marriage.

Hey - I’m not trying to be mean or ruin your day, I’m trying to save her from making a major mistake and entering into an invalid marriage. This is extremely serious, and I don’t know if you get that. And if you don’t care, then that’s even MORE serious.

~Liza

Liza, thank you very much for stressing this topic (you as well, 1ke.) It is one of great importance. And I think that if they do get married outside of the Catholic Church, the parents cannot be VERY Roman Catholic as the OP stated, because I know my parents wouldn’t allow me to marry in any other Church but our Church, and they are VERY Roman Catholic too!

And this thread did not go zero to crazy, Thomas! We simply have some very passionate Catholics on here!

God Bless you all my friends. And to you nhylan, you sound like a nice young man! I really do wish your future wife and you the best!

 

[Thomas63116]

And this thread did not go zero to crazy, Thomas! We simply have some very passionate Catholics on here!

People seem to have leapt to some assumptions/inferences about the OP’s situation that were not clear from the information he originally shared. In this particular case, it turns out many of those assumptions or inferences were accurate.

 

[mskejj]

Your situation is very similar to my best friend’s wedding. She was Episcoplian and he was Catholic. They were to be married in her church and they went to see both of their priests and went through preparation from both churches. The plan was to have a priest at the wedding at her church to bless the marriage. Very close to the time of the wedding, they had to sign something saying they would raise their children Catholic. She (being the more faithful one) did not want to commit to that since she was the stronger in her faith. As a result, at the last minute the priest said he could not come and there were hurt feelings on both sides. They were obviously not aware that they would have to commit to raise their kids Catholic when they started. It was too bad it wasn’t pointed out at the beginning. They raised their children Episcoplian and now they joined the Anglican Church (they are unhappy about the turn the church has taken in America). Now her children go to the Catholic Church for Bible study and the other goes to mass with her Catholic friends at college…there isn’t an Anglican Church nearby. Who knows…maybe they will end up as Catholics after all?

 

[josephdaniel29]

So essentially, Thomas, she wouldn’t be violating her promise if we raised them Episcopalian because of my “like obligation because of his her own Christian commitment?” This is important to me because like someone said earlier, I don’t want her to wake up one morning and feel guilty about it.

She is essentially leaving her church for mine yes, I’m sorry that wasn’t more obvious, I think I only mentioned it once. We will be worshiping at my church. Dispite this we still feel its important for her family’s sake that this all be kosher with the RCC (ie. can be a godparent)

Hi nhylan!

You are both adults and have a right to practice or not practice your faith as you see fit but there is an issue with the scenario you describe.

It seems to me that if you aren’t willing to raise the children in the Catholic faith, and that as a result of that no dispensation will be given by the bishop, that it would be unethical and immoral to ask a Catholic priest to witness the wedding ceremony. You would be asking him to witness a Catholic fall away from the faith.

I would feel it would be immoral for me to ask you to do something that violates your faith. Give the priest that same respect.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[joandarc2008]

joandarc,

Do I remember incorrectly that the dispensation is only granted if the catholic spouse promises to do her best to raise the kids catholic? I thought that was a stipulation that was a problem here.

That’s why I thought the only option left was the ‘nuclear’ one where she formally defects from catholicism (which it seems she functionally intends to do anyways).

That would be unless the OP has a change of heart - I am not counting anything out I just wanted to give all options to be fair and not turn away anyone - the OP seems intelligent and seems open minded so why shouldn’t we be?

 

[joandarc2008]

You know Nhylan I do give your fiancee and you a for trying to make everyone happy and comfortable but this is really the point in your life when you need to decide what you want together and go with it as a couple. My mother and father are a mixed marriage that worked - I was raised in both faiths and they each practiced their faith. I am Catholic. My brother - well- he has some growing up to do. The only thing I think I can say at this point is:

1. Don’t start marriage with a lie. Love is honest and kind. If you are both going to be Episcopal be honest with everyone - it will be a shock but when that child is born a lot of the hurt feelings will die down. Grandchildren conquer all anger.
2. If you really want to shock them tell them you are converting to Buddhism and then wait a week and tell them no- just Episcopalian - it will look much better. Just kidding.
3. Remember “a man leaves his mother and father and clings to his wife.” I would assume the wife should do the same as the man becomes the spiritual head of the household. You are what you are - if you can’t evangelize to your family can you live your Faith regardless of what it is?

 

[nhylan]

ok so here is where my Fiancee and I stand now. The priest has said that as long as we go pre cana and I’m validly baptized this will be ok with the RC church. I have tried finding info on it online but no luck. I was born and baptised a Congregationalist but have chosen to be Episcopalian.

Here is the question. Does anyone know if Congregationalists baptize in the name of the trinity?

 

[joandarc2008]

ok so here is where my Fiancee and I stand now. The priest has said that as long as we go pre cana and I’m validly baptized this will be ok with the RC church. I have tried finding info on it online but no luck. I was born and baptised a Congregationalist but have chosen to be Episcopalian.

Here is the question. Does anyone know if Congregationalists baptize in the name of the trinity?

I was baptized by UCC - they were also able to provide me with a certificate when I went through my Sacraments in the Catholic Church. Just a point of Reference and clarification so I don’t throw you into complete confusion since we believe in one baptism for forgiveness of sins I did provide that and then needed to have Reconcilliation,Eucharist, and Confirmation.

Also what is meant by Trinitarian formula since I am sure you saw a few is that they use water and they do it in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yes, UCC does this and it meets the requirements. Most do. If you cannot get the certificate you can get statements from people that were there that the formula was used.

Take care and God bless.

 

[medellinhu]

Also what is meant by Trinitarian formula since I am sure you saw a few is that they use water and they do it in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yes, UCC does this and it meets the requirements. Most do. If you cannot get the certificate you can get statements from people that were there that the formula was used.

If there is a “reasonable doubt” that you are baptized in the Trinitarian formula, the priest can do a conditional baptism in private, with no witnesses. He will say: “If you are not baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, …”

 

[medellinhu]

[Also what is meant by Trinitarian formula since I am sure you saw a few is that they use water and they do it in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yes, UCC does this and it meets the requirements. Most do. If you cannot get the certificate you can get statements from people that were there that the formula was used.]

If there is a “reasonable doubt” that you are baptized in the Trinitarian formula, the priest can do a conditional baptism in private, with no witnesses. He will say: “If you are not baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, …”*