Honoring Women in Islam

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I don’t care deer friend if christians or muslims today live in different times then they used to, its irrelevant. If one thing is morally good and acceptable at a certain time, then it should also be good and acceptable for every time and period in history… Time has no say nor influence on what is morally good or not, or at least it shouldnt. Unless you believe that Morality is something that changes with time and society, a subjective kind of Morality rather than a universal one as revealled by God Almighty.
 
Thanks for the admonition, I too had the impression that some of my posts began being tainted with negative emotions and subtle (perhaps not) personal attacks.

But since you’re speaking of ‘‘reductionist views of both Muslim and non-Muslim history’’, then what would you say of this ‘‘Islam has been “behind the times” since Mohammad walked the Earth and in a time warp since the 12th century’’
 
The Zani marries not but a Zaniyah or a Mushrikah; Here Allah tells us that the Zani (male who is guilty of illegal sex) does not have intercourse except with a Zaniyah (female who is guilty of illegal sex) or a Mushrikah (female idolator), meaning that no one would go along with him in this action except a sinful woman who is also guilty of Zina, or a Mushrikah who does not think it is unlawful.

This is from the tafseer Ibn Khatir, hope it helped.
 
If the women has no objection to the marriage, why do you deem it wrong to take her silence as a consent ? If someone wants to marry my daughter and comes at home asking her in marriage and she keeps silent (either because shes shy or by modesty or because she wants to have a second taught at the offer or wathever the reason is) … and we organise the marriage, dress her, bring them both together and she neither declares nor shows any objection to the marriage, why is it invalid ?

and please do also refer to Deutro 25:5 and inform me of where is the place for the women’s consent in the marriage process ?

on ‘’Mariage consent’’ and ‘’adulterers placed on the same moral level as pagans’’, already answered and you can refer to the previous post. But you brought something to my attention which is ‘’re-marriage’’, I always taught that marrying a divorced person wasn’t allowed in christianity and that one who involved himself in such a practice (marrying a divorced person) was put on the same scale as one getting involved in adultry ?

This is my reference and I’m looking for more in depth explanations:
Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Luke 16:18)
 
Abu_Toshiba said:
I’m starting to get tired at refuting this RIDICULOUS claim that ‘’Islam degraded the woman to the lowest level’’. Look at this, this is the kind of arguments you bring forth as a support for your claim. Explain to me please what is it that you deem wrong with making it an obligation for the man to escort a women when she travels, and permitting a women to travel only in the presence of a man related to her ? and How is this suppose to be a ‘’degradation of womens status’’ ?
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Because it means that a woman is unworthy of traveling on her own.
That due to weakness, untrustworthines, or some other deficiency women cannot be trusted out in public on their own.

That women require a guardian/watchdog whenever their allowed outside:rolleyes:

At least if you accept this theology (which I don’t).
 
Abu_Toshiba said:
If the women has no objection to the marriage, why do you deem it wrong to take her silence as a consent ? If someone wants to marry my daughter and comes at home asking her in marriage and she keeps silent (either because shes shy or by modesty or because she wants to have a second taught at the offer or wathever the reason is) … and we organise the marriage, dress her, bring them both together and she neither declares nor shows any objection to the marriage, why is it invalid ?
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Because silence=consent is a unfair and oppressive standard.

I can get anyone to agree to anything if we assume silence equals consent.

By that standard I can get the U.S. President to appoint me Secretary of Defense if we assume that silence equals consent (after he never said he wouldn’t):rolleyes:

Moreover, there are plenty of practical reasons why someone wouldn’t verbally object to something other than consent.

-Fear of retaliation (which is a very real concern for most women in many Muslim countries).
-Not speaking the language involved (or any language when it comes to babies and very young children).
-Not understanding the question (which a big concern when it comes to the mentally retarded and very young children, as well as senile men and women).
-Not understanding that rejection is an option (which it may not be, of course in such instances, consent is meaningless).

The idea that silence equals consent is an unfair and dictatorial thing. Particularly in areas where people legimately fear that if they do speak up, they will be brutally suppressed.
 
Abu_Toshiba said:
Let us read the whole hadith:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

And now let us ask ourselves ‘’How is this suppose to be a ‘’Degradation of womens status’’ ? (looking for your answer in a near future)
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Because it flat out says that women are worth about half that of a man in an important legal sense, and that somehow a woman’s period (or some other related feminine characteristic) makes her spiritually deficient.
 
Muslims who are serious about honoring women must recognize first that every jot and iota of the Koran is sacred and immutable. There are certainly principles within the Koran that may be built upon certainly, but to take every jot and iota as literal truth will lead to the continuing oppression of women in all coutnries where Islamic ideals predominate.

Next, they must recognize that Muhammed is not the perfect example for all men for all time, but very much a man of his culture and his time, and what was progressive in his attitudes toward women in 7th century Arabia is ridiculously out of place in this day and age.
Older men marrying multiple young girls is not showing any honor to women.

Then they must recognize the grievous harm being done to women in many of the countries of the Islamic world directly as a result of ayatollahs and Islamist interpretation of Koranic verse and hadiths. and must stand up against these interpretations with a monumental and unwavering effort. As long as women in places such as Saudi Arabia and Iran are being oppressed in the name of Allah and Mohammed, the sole target of criticism must be against Islamic treatment of women. They cannot be continually averted to Western decadence as if this was any kind of problem for the women of the Islamic world. Criticizing the West is a way of avoiding the internal problems of Islamic treatment of women is the refuge of cowards.

Finally, Muslims must insist that many of the misogynistic and barbaric practices in major Islamic countries are remnants of an ancient culture and have nothing to do with Islam, other than Muslims are often the ones engaging in such cultural traditions as if they were religiously mandated to do so.

The problems that women in the Islamic world face today are many and gravely serious. There is much work to be done
Singing the praises of Islamic honoring or women to those of us on the outside, while ignoring the many real life problems that women face today precisely because of Islamic practice comes off as rather pathetic and even callous.

Salim Mansur once noted that what was great about Mohammed’s teaching is that it introduced the sophisticated moral teachings of the Jews and the Christians to a barbaric people much in need of these teaching. Mohammed himself once noted that his teachings were not primarily for the People of the Book, because they already have the Book. What is happening to women in Islamic lands today is definitely not the finest example of our common Abrahamic traditions. This is inarguable. It is objectively true.
Ergo, as long as women in the Islamic world continue to be oppressed as they now are, the intent of Mohammed is being ignored.
It is a problem with Islam, and only Muslims can change the situation. One can only hope that they start soon. Even yesterday would not have been too soon.
 
We hope that this dialogue without any rise intolerance of any party and without any insult or ill-manners in my words this is for all the difference in the GATT and the consideration for Laser printers for intimacy 🙂
 
i mean our Ethics most be good and Sophisticated dialogue 🙂

sorry My language is difficult :o
 
This thread is a joke ( no offense), but now reading more about this subject, I can’t find any honor for women in islam…
 
jakasaki said:
If you don’t mind… can you plase tell us what your native language is…???
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Didn’t you you read it? “Difficult”! I tried to learn that once, but it was too…what’s the word… 😛

(In my defense, 20000 hours of intensive study in Plantenese more or less fried my brain in discussions like this one…)
 
dzheremi said:
Didn’t you you read it? “Difficult”! I tried to learn that once, but it was too…what’s the word… 😛

(In my defense, 20000 hours of intensive study in Plantenese more or less fried my brain in discussions like this one…)
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😃 😃

I thought it was me not understanding the English/American language… 😉

I hope the poster does come back & state what his native tongue is… 🙂

BTW ~ nice to hear from you Jeremy 👍
 
This whole conversation seems petty and rediculous.

Neither Christians nor Muslims have done a great job of honoring or respecting women until relatively recently. Plenty of Muslim and Christian writers wrote terrible things about women. So it’s easy for one to sling mud at the other.

That being said, I think most Christian countries have made a lot more advances in the treatment of women than Muslim countries, and Christian countries have been far more accepting of the women’s movement than Muslim countries.

But considering most Christian nations’ own histories, that is not saying much.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Don’t forget Female Genital Mutilation (which in its most severe forms tries to make a woman’s vagina look like a Barbie doll’s).

Its worth noting that FGM predates Islam in the areas of the world where it is most widely practiced. However, in practice Islam has done nothing to combat or oppose it.

For instance, Egypt a country that is heavily Muslim, practices the most brutal form of FGM on the majority its women.
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As you pointed out, FGM exists in Christian countries as well. It’s a cultural practice, not a religious practice.
 
valient_Lucy said:
This whole conversation seems petty and rediculous.

Neither Christians nor Muslims have done a great job of honoring or respecting women until relatively recently. Plenty of Muslim and Christian writers wrote terrible things about women. So it’s easy for one to sling mud at the other.

That being said, I think most Christian countries have made a lot more advances in the treatment of women than Muslim countries, and Christian countries have been far more accepting of the women’s movement than Muslim countries.

But considering most Christian nations’ own histories, that is not saying much.
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It may be true that countries considered Christian treated women badly until relatively recently (this is in fact an assertion I agree with). But there are numerous Muslim nations that continue to treat women very badly (such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, etc.), and few that treat women well.

Christian societies as a whole have made huge progress regarding their treatment of women over the last few centuries. The same cannot be said of the followers of Mohammed.
 
"Do you not know that you are Eve? The judgment of God upon this sex lives on in this age; therefore, necessarily the guilt should live on also. You are the gateway of the devil; you are the one who unseals the curse of that tree, and you are the first one to turn your back on the divine law; you are the one who persuaded him whom the devil was not capable of corrupting; you easily destroyed the image of God, Adam. Because of what you deserve, that is, death, even the Son of God had to die.” Tertulian ‘De Cultu Feminarum,’ section I.I, part 2

I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children." - St Augustine Meaning of the Book of Genesis

I’m quoting these to show that it is unfair to compare the writings of Islam to the modern world or modern Christianity.

It is perfectly fair to compare modern Christianity to modern Islam, and if you do, then yes, Christianity looks better. But if we compare historical Christianity to modern Islam, then in many places in the world modern Islam would look much better.

If we compare historical Christianity to historical Islam, it’s a tossup.
 
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