Hope for the continuation of the TLM

[otjm]

Looks like you read something into my last post that wasn’t there. I was simply giving a few examples of those who did go elsewhere for what appear to be liturgical reasons. notice the word “some” which does not mean “all” or a “majority” or anything of the kind. It means just what it says: some. But, while I cannot give you the statistical data that you would prefer, (I doubt it even exists), I do think that it was more than a few thousand.

Which is why I used the term “the thousands” rather than a “few thousand”; neiter one of us have statistics, but I also can’t find anyone who sets the SSPX parishoners at any significant number, and things fall off rapidly after that. Maybe back East (which to this West Coaster means anything the other side of the Rockies) there are more SSPX parishes. I am extapolating, obviously, but we have one that I am aware of in western Oregon. I think on another thread that someone said there were under 500 SSPX priests worldwide; and given they have been most active in France and Brazil, I would presume that “the thousands” would be a decent range. As I note, I am not aware of any information as to how many parishes they ahve in the US.

The word snoozing is a cute euphemism. One could say it was more like the bishops were in a coma. (Some, apparently, still are).

I was trying to be polite. I try to not become polemical about it; however, we agree.

In any case, I’m not about to speak on anyone’s intent, but it seems to me they do bear the brunt of responsibility. Yes, those who “wrote the catechisms” had their own agenda, but they did not do their work in a vacuum or on their own. As you say, “they [the bishops] did not take personal oversite, and what little oversite they gave was not intelligently applied” and therein lies the problem.

I would agree they bear the responsiblity. They have finally gotten in gear, but the damage will be a long time in resolving. It didn’t happen overnight, and cleaning up the mess won’t either.

 

[revert_jen]

A whole lot of those “little ditties” are based on specific passages of psalms, Old and New Testament passages. They are noted at the bottom of each music piece if they are from such.

So is it the music accompanyment that you don’t like, or do you just not like the Bible?

Speaking for myself, the music is DREADFUL. Yeeeech-ptooi. It trivializes the scripture. For example, “We are many parts” takes a beautiful passage of scripture, intersperses it with inane non-scriptural bits with a terrible rhyme scheme, and then puts it all to music that, even when performed on an organ, sounds like a theme from a 1960s TV western. (Granted it is GIA not OCP but still it is an example of the same type of thing.) The absolute WORST thing is that then it creeps into my mind when I’m reaing Scripture like some horrible jingle you can’t get out of your head. (Like if you were reading about the Apostles becoming fishers of men, and “Trust the Gorton’s fisherman” kept playing in your head.) And then there are the ones like Hosea, which one persumes is based on, well, Hosea, but if you read the entire (very short) book of Hosea, you can’t find the main elements of the song anywhere. Some of those “based on” things are very loosely based.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I think that the stated goals of the broader use of the EF are all valid. I was born after V II, so the first TLM I attended was a year or so ago. It was a little frustrating the first time, but once I got the hang of it, it is a very intensely spiritual experience, more so than the OF has ever been for me. But it’s a difference in degree, not in kind, really. Valid Mass is valid Mass.

So the EF is great because it lets those of us who never experienced it become in touch with our spiritual heritage, and it lets those who have felt the lack of it for 40 years (maybe like a missing tooth–not necessarily painful, but you keep noticing it’s not there) reconnect with the Mass of their youth and draw its spiritual benefits. And what we all need to sincerely pray for, is that the increased presence of the EF will cause the celebration of the OF to increase in reverence.

Another benefit is that I believe more music is being composed or resurrected that is appropriate to the EF, which may help in the OF as well. There seem to be more chant resources.

Anyway, the original poster’s question was did we think the EF wold continue, and I would say yes, definitely, unless the next Pope (may our current Pope live a long time yet!) isn’t in favor of it. It doesn’t seem to be dying of lack of interest, at least. It does seem to me that most of the people (but not all) who attend the EF in my parish are under 45 or over 75, but I don’t know how representative we are.

Of course the OF will continue also, but hopefully with a more consistently high level of reverence. And more good music, fewer “ditties.”

–Jen

 

[Frosty]

If it had only been watered down, we might not be in the mess as deeply as we are. It might be better to say that catechesis fell in the toilet, and someone flushed.

A few months ago, Archbishop Chaput was on a Canadian talk show along with another Canadian Bishop and two well-respected priests. They discussed this very issue of the catechesis which has been practiced over the last several decades and they all agreed that it has not been very effective. Or as Father Lynch said, it has been dismal. However, the consensus was that the type of catechesis practiced previously really wasn’t that much better. The Archbishop stated that while learning by rote the answers to the questions posed in the various catechisms seemed to produce Catholics who knew and understood their faith, the reality was much different and it had been a great concern of the Church for a long time. He said that it was in many ways a very superficial understanding that didn’t lead to a true internalization of what those questions and answers really meant nor how to actually live the faith. In the attempt to bring the Gospel more fully into the lives of Catholics by emphasizing the social aspects and how to apply them to our lives, it was thought that the new generations would truly experience a renewal of an authentic Christian witness. This hasn’t worked out as well as had been hoped. Archbishop Chaput said that there has to be a happy medium between the two methods of catechizing but that the Church hasn’t as yet been able to find it. All four priests agreed that in recent years there has been some improvement but that we can not expect the Catholic schools to do all the work for us. The schools only have the children for five or six hours a day, the parents have them the rest of the time and it is their responsibility to enhance what has been taught in the schools at home and ensure that their children have a correct and authentic faith formation.
I posted the above just as a bit of information, not to get into any discussion of the Archbishop’s opinion.

 

[John_Grudzien]

A whole lot of those “little ditties” are based on specific passages of psalms, Old and New Testament passages. They are noted at the bottom of each music piece if they are from such.

So is it the music accompanyment that you don’t like, or do you just not like the Bible?

And given that the vast number of parishes in the world are using the OF - Mass Times Trust which tracks the use of the EF puts it at about 1 in every 250 parishes out of a total of 117,000 parishes, it is not likely that the OF is going to go away. In other words, the vast majority of people attending Mass regularly are doing so in the EF. Clutches or otherwise.

I would hope that if you prefer the EF, that you would work with others who do also, to be able to show the need. Unless and until it is effectively presented to the archbishop, a request for the EF is not going to gain traction. Dont get mad. Get even. Play the political game if that is what must be done, but play it to be effective.

Yes it is the MUSIC I detest, not the words!! Sheesh! No need to get nasty! Do I not like
the Bible? Don’t play that game! Why , oh why, do you adherents of the NO look down your sanctimonious noses at anyone who would prefer the EF? All I request is that we be given at least an iota of recognition for our position…The Lord knows I’ve had to put up your stats about how small a segment of HMC we are! So if the vast majority of people are running headlong over a cliff I have to follow them? Get real! All I was commenting on was using music, such as “You Fill Up My Senses”, “The Old Rugged Cross”, “Those Endearing Young Charms” etc., during a supposedly CATHOLIC service!!!
As for playing the political game, why do I have to stoop so low? Only a liberal or modernist would come up with that answer.

 

[otjm]

Yes it is the MUSIC I detest, not the words!! Sheesh! No need to get nasty! Do I not like
the Bible? Don’t play that game! Why , oh why, do you adherents of the NO look down your sanctimonious noses at anyone who would prefer the EF? All I request is that we be given at least an iota of recognition for our position…The Lord knows I’ve had to put up your stats about how small a segment of HMC we are! So if the vast majority of people are running headlong over a cliff I have to follow them? Get real! All I was commenting on was using music, such as “You Fill Up My Senses”, “The Old Rugged Cross”, “Those Endearing Young Charms” etc., during a supposedly CATHOLIC service!!!
As for playing the political game, why do I have to stoop so low? Only a liberal or modernist would come up with that answer.

I pulled your chain because you came across as sanctimonious. Get off your high horse. Detest is a pretty strong word; I don’t necessarily like the music myself, but I appreciate the fact that we are singing something that is biblicly based, and not some of what we had before Vatican 2. You have an anger issue that you need to deal with.

And as to the snotty comment about being political, I have sat and watched as people who want the EF shoot themselves in the foot. What the bishop decides is pretty much what goes. I was suggeting tht instead of being angry about the OF, about the music, and about the Catholic Church in general, that if the EF is not reasonably available to you, that you use some intelligence in trying to get it more widely available. Liberal or Modernist? You obviously do not know the definition of either of those terms or you would not be slinging them.

There is a process for getting the EF; it needs to be established factually that there are enough people that Rome will actually pay attention to you if you have approached the bishop and he simply refuses to deal with the issue. Come in blazing at the bishop, and Rome has already indcated they are not real excited. Come in factually and with an attitude that is not bellicose and you stand a lot better chance of getting somewhere with the bishop; come in with solutions instead of demands and you are more likely to get a hearing. That is being political. It has been said that politics is the art of the possible; getting the EF is possible if handled appropriately. Come in with the anger you are showing and you will get short shrift.

I was trying to encourage you to do something positive instead of just sitting there angry. Get a grip. You don’t like the statistics? How about doing something positive instead of getting angry, and spewing all that you don’t like about the OF? You want the statistics to change? Then it is up to you to do somehting besides throw snot at what you don’t like. The old adage that more flies are drawn to honey than to vinegar still proves true. You are not the only boomer around.

Only a liberal or a modernist would come up with the answer? How about someone who is smart enought to see how one’s objectives can be accomplished? You want this handed to you on a platter? It ain’t gonna happen; but you can do something about it if you choose, and use something besides your anger to focus it. There is a process for getting the EF. And that process can be approached with intelligence or lack thereof. You want it in different language? Fine: there is a way to manipulate the bishop to accomplish what you want. You don’t like that it is manipulation? Then use a different wored; but that is what I am suggesting - come in with a survey, establish the need, offer suggestions as to how that can be accomplished - what parish it will be offered in, how the logistics will work, get the support of a pastor (I doubt there are none out there who would support it), in short, show some intiative.

Or you can sit in the corner and sulk. The choice is yours; if someone makes a suggestion, you might try listening instead of reacting.

I support the spread of the EF, in spite of the fact that some of the people who want it seem only capable of biting the hand that feeds them.

 

[revert_jen]

There is a process for getting the EF; it needs to be established factually that there are enough people that Rome will actually pay attention to you if you have approached the bishop and he simply refuses to deal with the issue.

I assume you mean there is a process if one can’t find a priest that is willing or trained to say the EF? Because if a priest is willing, there is no required involvement from the bishop at all anymore, AFAIK. Or am I wrong?

–Jen

 

[John_Grudzien]

Just tryin’ to make a point! It doesn’t feel the greatest to be called un-biblical… I see you have feelings too…that gratifies me somehow. Pax?
AS for the politics, I just get sooo tired of having to play them. I just want to adore the Lord in his house during Mass and I find too many distractions for my taste and sensibilities. We get out of it what we bring with ourselves and, unfortunately, in my area of God’s green Earth, I bring expectations of the worst. I hope and pray it isn’t so each time I attend, but those hopes and prayers are usually dashed by the first discord of the organ, flute and trumpet combo.
Please don’t think that I want to abolish the NO. If it works for you, fine. It just doesn’t for me. To get my quiet time in His house, I usually get there about 30 to 45 min (and if I have the time an hour early) and kneel and sit in adoration, saying my Rosary, or Chaplet of Divine Mercy(see, I can get into a newer form of prayer…maybe there’s hope for me yet?, I EVEN say the Luminous Mysteries! How radical I am!), or otherwise praying prayers out of my 1940’s and 50’s vintage missals, or just talking to Him, or even just sitting there listening for Him. It’s just a shame, in my eyes, that I can’t put my head in my hands and pray to Our Lord when I re-enter the pew after receiving Him.
I don’t think I’m being sanctimonious, or Pharisaic. That is not my intention. I just want to give to Our Lord , the best forms of adoration I am capable of, and to me, the NO is not there!:banghead:

 

[otjm]

I assume you mean there is a process if one can’t find a priest that is willing or trained to say the EF? Because if a priest is willing, there is no required involvement from the bishop at all anymore, AFAIK. Or am I wrong?

–Jen

Summorum Pontificum Article 2 says that a priest may say the Mass privately without permission on any day except the Easter Triduum, and Article 4 the faithful may attend by asking permission.

Article 5 refers to Masses in parishes; says that where a stable group (undefined) who adhere to the EF request it, the pastor should willingly accept their requests… “and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonizes with the ordinary pstoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.”

I have not seen that officially parsed by Rome. I would suspect that it may provide some authority to the bishop to determine what parishes might have it and what might not. I have seen comments that the bishop cannot stop anyone who wants it (the EF) and that 2 to 5 people could qualify as a “stable group”, which I also doubt Rome would back, if for no other reason than that there is language balancing the need of both the OF and EF groups, and canon law prevents a priest from saying more than 3 Masses in a day, and that only with special permission.

It further says that priests who do say the EF “must be qualified to do so and not juridicially impeded”. There has been discussion that a priest would only need to know how to pronounce Latin words (i.e. not have taken any significant Latin courses); I have my doubts about that since pre-Vatican 2, at least in the seminary I attended, one had to pass 2 years of college Latin. In addition they would need to know the rubrics, but that takes less time to learn.

Given that we have priests who were ordained well before Vatican 2 and before the change of the rite, it is not an impossiblity to find a priest who would be willing to say the Mass; whether weekly or periodically. If I was to go looking, the first place I would start would be with priests who are retired.

So in short, if it is to be a public Mass, it appears there is some part the bishop may have in the matter. I know there have been appeals to Rome, but it would appear that Rome is handling things on a case by case basis and not making the issue public, as I have not seen anything in the news otherwise. The net result of that, if that is the fact, is that local matters are resolved without necessarily further defining the issues above.

 

[Layman]

I think you are correct. As long as the priest is incardinated in the diocese, he can say a public TLM there. If he is not, I think he can still say a private TLM. I think you only need the Bishop’s permission to preach, hear confessions and perfom marriages.

 

[otjm]

Just tryin’ to make a point! It doesn’t feel the greatest to be called un-biblical… I see you have feelings too…that gratifies me somehow. Pax?
AS for the politics, I just get sooo tired of having to play them. I just want to adore the Lord in his house during Mass and I find too many distractions for my taste and sensibilities. We get out of it what we bring with ourselves and, unfortunately, in my area of God’s green Earth, I bring expectations of the worst. I hope and pray it isn’t so each time I attend, but those hopes and prayers are usually dashed by the first discord of the organ, flute and trumpet combo.
Please don’t think that I want to abolish the NO. If it works for you, fine. It just doesn’t for me. To get my quiet time in His house, I usually get there about 30 to 45 min (and if I have the time an hour early) and kneel and sit in adoration, saying my Rosary, or Chaplet of Divine Mercy(see, I can get into a newer form of prayer…maybe there’s hope for me yet?, I EVEN say the Luminous Mysteries! How radical I am!), or otherwise praying prayers out of my 1940’s and 50’s vintage missals, or just talking to Him, or even just sitting there listening for Him. It’s just a shame, in my eyes, that I can’t put my head in my hands and pray to Our Lord when I re-enter the pew after receiving Him.
I don’t think I’m being sanctimonious, or Pharisaic. That is not my intention. I just want to give to Our Lord , the best forms of adoration I am capable of, and to me, the NO is not there!:banghead:

I might have taken a shot at you. I use a howitzer for liberals.

I understand that there can be feelings of distaste (for lack of a better term) in “playing politics”. But it seems to me also that Scripture admonishes us to be cunning. Beating a bishop at his own game may, perhaps, provide an unnecessary feeling of satisfaction; but better, it can produce results.

And there won’t be any significant results in some areas unless and until people figure out how to play the game. The bishop has the better part of the rules in his corner, but he doesn’t have all of them. If anything is going to change, it will have to be because people no longer sit and moan about the status quo, but figure out how to accomplish what they want. And then they need to get off their dead rear ends and do something. Getting angry, demanding “rights”, failing to acknowledge that they are in a minority, failing to do their homwork are all issues that will result in a loss. Some bishops are good. Some are mediocre. Some are not so good. And none of us has had the privilige of walking in their shoes, but we are pretty quick to make judgements. That all needs to be set aside, and someone who is astute but not impassioned needs to lead this. They will also need help.

My archdiocese has one parish that has the EF, as far as I can determine. I happen to be in a parish that has a 78 year old pastor, reverence, a new Catholic grade school that is actually Catholic, 24 hour Perpetual Adoration, and I also have a Trappist Abbey a reasonable distance away.

I also, to some extent, seem to be able to let a lot of issues run off like water off a duck’s back; other people tend to be more aggravated. But I am a firm believer in doing something rather than moaning.

 

[Breviarylover]

And so what am I at 58…chopped liver?

 

[h1478971]

So then we need more balloon masses? How did that thinking serve us during the seventies and eighties? If novelty is the attraction then the NO created in the sixties should have our pews overflowing. Why didn’t it?

There is a significant generation gap in the TLM I attend - the Baby Boomers aren’t there…

You are absolutely right.