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LukeS
Guest
Becuz the bible says so.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Excellent! My hope is that through the contest you or i will come to a better understanding of Hope and her twin Faith, and a fuller appreciation for the beauty of each. I want to take up the cause of Faith, as well as Hope, and defend the honor of them both, fighting as valiantly as i’m able to prove them, together more beautiful than their celebrity sister.
I suppose that before we begin the duel, we should come up with some rules of engagement. I should like to use Socrates’ method: I will pose questions to you and Luke and anyone else who cares to engage me. You and the others will do their best to answer each question before i ask the next. Each of you may also ask questions of me in response, being good enough to not change the topic of my inquiry. Should we reach the conclusion that Hope and Faith are fairer than Love, the twins shall be the vindicated. Should the opposite conclusion be reached, Love shall take the prize and remain on her thrown as the most beautiful of virtues.
If at the end of the contest you want another go at it, you may ask me questions and i shall answer them until we reach some conclusion as to who is the most lovely and desirable of the three ladies.
The questions and answers must be respectful and thoughtful and sincere (though an occasional sarcasm to make it fun should be tolerated). If these terms are agreeable to you, we may begin. If not, let me know how to modify them.
I’ll ask the first question to Luke, you may answer the question (as well as any question) i ask him or anyone else.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes the Bible does say so, Sir Luke. My hope is to put what the Bible says to the test so that we may know not only whether it is true but also why it is so, or not so.
That being said, the Bible says this:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
(1 John 4:8)
Do you believe that God is Love, and that this is evidence that Love is the most perfect of virtues, since God Himself is perfect?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
No offense taken, Sir David. If you so choose, you may join the offense with Sir FH against lovely Hope and Faith, or you may stand aside and watch the battle. If at any point you change your mind, you may stand at my side and i will be honored to fight at your right hand in defense of the radiant twins.
The decision is at your discretion. I will not fault you if you take up arms against Hope and Faith or decide to sit on the fence and watch.
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davidv
Guest
I found the “Virtue” article in the Catholic Encyclopdia quite useful to me with regard to this topic. It may help you fine tune your questions.
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fhansen
Guest
I’m still around but now I have to finish fixing the washing machine cuz my wife’s giving me some really dirty looks-I’m not avoiding the duel-I promise -even tho I’m shy on philosophic skills. But even so, I’m convinced that love will conquer all, as they say.
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fhansen
Guest
OK, washer’s fixed. I always like to repair a major appliance before theological debate-I think Augustine or someone used to do that, too.
I do believe that God is love although defining that reality is not so easy a task. Catholic mystics, however, tell us that the experience of being in Gods presence is to be engulfed in love-love and God being inseparable. From these and other readings as well as personal experience (which doesn’t count, I suppose), I believe love to be vastly more powerful and all-encompassing than we might-or can- imagine.
Another point comes from asking what, exactly, Adam & Eve lost by sinning and being cast from the garden? Theologians generally agree that sanctifying grace was lost but they also hold that an intimate connection exists between grace and love and some even claim they’re the same. Man certainly turned from love and towards self by rejecting Gods authority, rejecting God as their god in the process, and by this act revealing a lack of faith in Him, for whatever reasons that may be. I haven’t heard any great answers explaining mans’ reasons for sinning-the best perhaps being the lack of perfect wisdom which may needs be inherent in created beings. In any case, selfishness can be said to be the antithesis of love. The separation from God-the exile of man that resulted from his turning from God- separated man from love, at least love on the level God intended for man. From mans lost condition in a world where he knows good and evil and is effectively cut off from the reign of Gods will, man can experience the pain of that separation, and with Gods revelation/grace, he can learn the value of love and choose life, turning back to Him.
But first steps in that process include restored faith, by hearing revelation, and then hope, trusting that the revealed truths will fulfill the awoken desires of the heart. Theosis, the deification or divinization of man, means for him to be perfected in love, united with the Object of his love, where faith and hope are no longer necessary, especially in light of Church teachings that sin isn’t possible in heaven, meaning separation from God (and thus the need for faith and hope) can no longer threaten mankind there.
For additional support for the claim that love is at the top of Gods list, consider that He’s demanded it, by His laws, from His earliest contact with fallen man:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matt 22:36-40
Echoed by St John and St Paul:
This is my command: Love each other. John 15:17
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom13:10
And of course, the verse davidv quoted is absolutely devastating to any argument you may conceive, Soc, sorry to say. I’ll understand if you don’t respond.
**And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
1 Cor 13:13 **
I do believe that God is love although defining that reality is not so easy a task. Catholic mystics, however, tell us that the experience of being in Gods presence is to be engulfed in love-love and God being inseparable. From these and other readings as well as personal experience (which doesn’t count, I suppose), I believe love to be vastly more powerful and all-encompassing than we might-or can- imagine.
Another point comes from asking what, exactly, Adam & Eve lost by sinning and being cast from the garden? Theologians generally agree that sanctifying grace was lost but they also hold that an intimate connection exists between grace and love and some even claim they’re the same. Man certainly turned from love and towards self by rejecting Gods authority, rejecting God as their god in the process, and by this act revealing a lack of faith in Him, for whatever reasons that may be. I haven’t heard any great answers explaining mans’ reasons for sinning-the best perhaps being the lack of perfect wisdom which may needs be inherent in created beings. In any case, selfishness can be said to be the antithesis of love. The separation from God-the exile of man that resulted from his turning from God- separated man from love, at least love on the level God intended for man. From mans lost condition in a world where he knows good and evil and is effectively cut off from the reign of Gods will, man can experience the pain of that separation, and with Gods revelation/grace, he can learn the value of love and choose life, turning back to Him.
But first steps in that process include restored faith, by hearing revelation, and then hope, trusting that the revealed truths will fulfill the awoken desires of the heart. Theosis, the deification or divinization of man, means for him to be perfected in love, united with the Object of his love, where faith and hope are no longer necessary, especially in light of Church teachings that sin isn’t possible in heaven, meaning separation from God (and thus the need for faith and hope) can no longer threaten mankind there.
For additional support for the claim that love is at the top of Gods list, consider that He’s demanded it, by His laws, from His earliest contact with fallen man:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matt 22:36-40
Echoed by St John and St Paul:
This is my command: Love each other. John 15:17
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom13:10
And of course, the verse davidv quoted is absolutely devastating to any argument you may conceive, Soc, sorry to say. I’ll understand if you don’t respond.
**And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
1 Cor 13:13 **
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fhansen
Guest
I probably veered too far from the question so I’ll answer again.
Yes, I believe that God is love and that we are to become like Him, “partakers of the divine nature” (2Pet 1:4) and perfect as He is perfect (Matt 5:48), meaning that we, too, must be perfected in love. And that, since God has no need of either faith or hope, we’ll ultimately have no need for them either.
Therefore, I maintain that love is superior to faith or hope.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Thanks, i’ll bookmark that one and read it later.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
And do you believe that Love is self-sufficient, lacking nothing, enduring, and never failing, because God is Love and He is self-sufficient, lacking nothing, enduring eternally, and never failing to act according to His nature, which is that of Love?
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fhansen
Guest
Yep, I’d have a hard time arguing against those points.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Mounted on his steed, Sir Socrates approached the platform where the princesses of his desire stood angelically waiting for his approach. He raised his lance erect to majestic Faith who confidently grasped the it with her left hand and she removed a silver ribbon with her right from her ebony hair, as dark as a moonless night sky. Her deep eyes held his gaze with a look that inspired a surge of courage and confidence in his heart.
She handed the ribbon to her twin sister virgin Hope, who was as innocent and lovely as her sister was bold and beautiful. Hope smiled shyly from behind her brilliant blond locks, reflecting the sun as though it were made of diamonds. She softly bit her lip as her trembling fingers gently tied the silver thread to the tip of the lance head and then did the same with a bronze ribbon she removed from one of her own braids.
Having received the gifts from his desires, he lifted his weapon higher with his right hand and raised his shield with his left, proclaiming loudly, “I name my shield Faith after you, inspiring one, for your eyes give me a confidence that will protect me from all the blows of your enemies. And my lance i’ve named Hope, after you the one who gives me Hope that you, gentle one, shall be, with your sister, vindicated on this day!”
“Our hope is in you, your grace!” called out Hope with great anticipation.
“We know you will win the day, your grace, for your cause is just and we trust that God Himself is with you,” said Faith, with tone strong and reassuring.
She handed the ribbon to her twin sister virgin Hope, who was as innocent and lovely as her sister was bold and beautiful. Hope smiled shyly from behind her brilliant blond locks, reflecting the sun as though it were made of diamonds. She softly bit her lip as her trembling fingers gently tied the silver thread to the tip of the lance head and then did the same with a bronze ribbon she removed from one of her own braids.
Having received the gifts from his desires, he lifted his weapon higher with his right hand and raised his shield with his left, proclaiming loudly, “I name my shield Faith after you, inspiring one, for your eyes give me a confidence that will protect me from all the blows of your enemies. And my lance i’ve named Hope, after you the one who gives me Hope that you, gentle one, shall be, with your sister, vindicated on this day!”
“Our hope is in you, your grace!” called out Hope with great anticipation.
“We know you will win the day, your grace, for your cause is just and we trust that God Himself is with you,” said Faith, with tone strong and reassuring.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Indeed! So God’s Love is:
- the most perfect of virtues
- self-sufficient and lacking nothing
- enduring and eternal
- never failing to act according to His nature
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
(1 Corinthians 13)
Is it your contention that this Love of God is the most beautiful and greatest of all virtues, as wonderful and powerful as God Himself, for this virtue is, in some mysterious way, Himself?
F
fhansen
Guest
Yes, yes, yes-pierce my heart with your lance if you must but I’ll never recant of this truth-I’ve lost too much to gain it-I’d betray my Love to deny it.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Divine she is, Queen Love. There is none like her, for there is none like God!
But before your love for Love makes you blind with passion, answer me this: Is Love the greatest of man’s virtues, or only the greatest virtue possessed by God alone?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Sir FH bowed his head as he sat on his armor-clad stallion holding up his lance to the Divine Beauty Queen Love. Like so many who had approached the most attractive widow before him, he averted his eyes.
“My Queen, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed,” he asked.
She took a golden thread from her red hair, blazing as fire, and tied it to his lance and said with words that griped his very soul, “Defeat this foolish challenger of my honor and you will be mine. You shall remain in me and I will remain with you, for as long as you may abide in me.”
“My Queen, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed,” he asked.
She took a golden thread from her red hair, blazing as fire, and tied it to his lance and said with words that griped his very soul, “Defeat this foolish challenger of my honor and you will be mine. You shall remain in me and I will remain with you, for as long as you may abide in me.”
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fhansen
Guest
Sorry, had to break for pork chops…OK back again.
Gods’ purpose, from the beginning of creation, is for His greatest virtue to become mans greatest virtue. Then Gods will is done. For what reason might you think that any virtue other than love would satisfy Him?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Pray tell; what say ye, sir FH?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Well, i’m not confident anything i say, think, or do will satisfy Him.
When i, in my honest moments, ask my self, “Is my love is patient? Is my love kind? Does my love not envy? Does my love not boast? Is my love not proud? Is my love not rude? Is my love not self-seeking? Is my love not easily angered? Is my love keeping no record of wrongs? Is my love not delighting in evil but rejoicing with the truth? Is my love always protecting, always trusting, always hoping, always persevering? Does my love, as His Love, never fail?”
My most sincere answer is, “No, my love is not like that, at least it is rarely so.”
How about your love, FH?
When i, in my honest moments, ask my self, “Is my love is patient? Is my love kind? Does my love not envy? Does my love not boast? Is my love not proud? Is my love not rude? Is my love not self-seeking? Is my love not easily angered? Is my love keeping no record of wrongs? Is my love not delighting in evil but rejoicing with the truth? Is my love always protecting, always trusting, always hoping, always persevering? Does my love, as His Love, never fail?”
My most sincere answer is, “No, my love is not like that, at least it is rarely so.”
How about your love, FH?
F
fhansen
Guest
Methinks I understand your quest a fair bit better now. My love may be of a weaker nature than your own-I cannot say-but I’m speaking of an ideal in Gods mind which shall be achieved by the time of my meeting with Him or, well, the meeting won’t be taking place. Meanwhile, by His mercy and through His grace, He’ll accomplish His goals, we will be perfect as He is perfect, holy as He is holy; not one that He gives to the Son will be lost. And fortunately for us this Son He sent has laid down His life for us while we’re yet in our sins and transgressions (while we yet love less well than we should) demonstrating the utmost in love and mercy and forgiveness and patience, so that our being perfected in this Love of His is a process, of interior transformation, not an all-at-once “experience” of some kind. In my case, He’s shown me a love so profound I have no words to speak it and “He’s begun a good work” in me that I believe “He’ll carry through to completion” but I won’t know until and unless we meet and I can see Him face to face. Now I have a taste of His love and He’s produced love in me for Him. Then, if all goes well and I continue to cooperate, His work will be done and I’ll finally love as He loves.
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