Hope

  • Thread starter Thread starter Socrates4Jesus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
'twas as a nightmare from which he could not awake. All seemed slow as though a wizard had bewitched him. He knew he should raise his shield higher to deflect the blow, but his arm could not move fast enough.

So loud. The sickening crash into his helmet was followed by a deafening church bell in his ears. Did the lance chatter against his head? Was his head still attached?

“Stay conscious, stop looking up into the sky, you fool!” he thought. “Get your eyes off the blood red sun.”

No, it must be his own blood. Yes, he could taste it. Feeling pain, now. Keep it together. Pull back on the reins. No lance. Must have dropped it.

“Quickly, Page! Get ye another lance!”
 
Let me ask the question a different way, your grace. Did you and i not agree that Love of God is as follows?
  • the most perfect of virtues
  • self-sufficient and lacking nothing
  • enduring and eternal
  • never failing to act according to God’s nature
If so, then tell me with all honesty: How is your love is perfect, self sufficient, lacking in nothing, enduring, eternal, and never failing to act according to God’s nature?

🤷
 
Alas, the time is drawing neigh for me to part company with you for the eve.

Hey, i’ll check in tomorrow. Thanks for the dialog and for being such a good sport about answering the tough questions and putting up with my sub-standard storytelling! The questions are the same i ask myself and for which i’m still seeking answers. Your thinking through it with me is much appreciated.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Let me ask the question a different way, your grace. Did you and i not agree that Love of God is as follows?
  • the most perfect of virtues
  • self-sufficient and lacking nothing
  • enduring and eternal
  • never failing to act according to God’s nature
If so, then tell me with all honesty: How is your love is perfect, self sufficient, lacking in nothing, enduring, eternal, and never failing to act according to God’s nature?

🤷
Click to expand...
Well, the question has changed then, hasn’t it? Originally you asked if faith and hope were superior to love, then your question had to do with the nature of Gods’ love and now you’re interested in my own. For the original question, more evidence has already been put forth in favor of love being a virtue superior to the others. I’ll reiterate the fact that this is a process in Catholic theology, rarely finished in this life. So if you expect perfection now, you’ll have to look elsewhere-I don’t claim it for myself. God alone decides when the work is finished. I only know it’s begun but I don’t go around justifiying myself to others. Methinks you may be a closet prevaricator 'neath a friendly facade? If so, reconsider the necessity of love being perfected prior to heaven. It’ll get you off those nasty habits. That’s an area it’s already worked for me-see, God really does change the heart!
 
fhansen said:
Well, the question has changed then, hasn’t it? Originally you asked if faith and hope were superior to love, then your question had to do with the nature of Gods’ love and now you’re interested in my own. For the original question, more evidence has already been put forth in favor of love being a virtue superior to the others.
Click to expand...
The fault is mine, Sir FH, for not being clear. Please accept my apologies. Yes, i’m interested in knowing what the greatest and most beautiful virtue **you or i **might (here and now) possess. I’m suggesting that Hope and Faith are greater and more beautiful human virtues than Love.
 
fhansen said:
I’ll reiterate the fact that this is a process in Catholic theology, rarely finished in this life. So if you expect perfection now, you’ll have to look elsewhere-I don’t claim it for myself. God alone decides when the work is finished. I only know it’s begun but I don’t go around justifiying myself to others. Methinks you may be a closet prevaricator 'neath a friendly facade? If so, reconsider the necessity of love being perfected prior to heaven. It’ll get you off those nasty habits. That’s an area it’s already worked for me-see, God really does change the heart!
Click to expand...
I agree with all you have said and see that you are a thoughtful Catholic and most likely wiser than myself. As for perfection, what you say sounds reasonable. Love is a Queen Most Divine and no man is good enough to abide in Her for long. She is a goddess and immortal and perhaps only God may be her betrothed.

👍

I believe that, since practically i still sin, that imperfection taints any love i might care to demonstrate for God and others. The difference between the greatness of my love and the greatness of the Love that is God’s is the difference between the number of grains of sand i might hold in the palm of my hand and the number of grains of sand on all the beaches of all the earth. The stain of sin causes your love or mine to be far from perfect.

But does not this same sin also corrupt any faith and hope your or i might have in Him, as well? I trust that your answer would be in the affirmative. Thus, if you care to continue to be Love’s champion, i will concede that neither human Love, nor human Faith and Hope are perfect. Each of the ladies your or i defend are only human. Thus, if you are willing, we may continue the contest to determine which of these imperfect human virtues is the greatest as they exist in you or i.

If, however, you decide to concede that human Faith and Hope are indeed greater than human Love, i’d like to suggest that we lay down our arms and together think through why this is true.

What say thee? Are ye still Love’s champion or no?
 
As his page retrieved another lance, Sir FH removed his helmet to retrieve more air. The blood and sweat in his eyes made it difficult to see the fair voice that addressed him.

“Your grace,” she said with compassion, “Please to take my scarf to wipe thy face.”

He grasped the silken cloth (as best he could with his chain-clad fingers) from the delicate hand that was raised to him and wiped his eyes clear. Looking down to thank the maiden for her kindness, he saw that she was dressed as the queen and end of her garb and feet were now tainted with the mud of the battlefield.

“Who is this who muddies her dress in such an act of kindness toward me?” he asked himself.

“My champion,” she said, “All is not lost. By God’s grace the tide of the battle shall turn in our favor!”

He realized that the one on whom he dared not look as she tied her golden ribbon round his spear was not Queen Love, but her cousin by the same name who is but a princess and not as great nor as beautiful. Yet the knight was drawn by her selfless kindness and willingness to suffer humiliation for his sake.

“Should i continue to fight as her champion?” he asked himself.

“My lady …” he began to address her. “I …”
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
What say thee? Are ye still Love’s champion or no?
Click to expand...
Of course, because “with man nothing is possible but with God all things are possible”. All perfection is relative to and inferior to Gods perfection but If you will not love as perfectly as God determines you must-which implies perfect sinlessness- by the time you’re to meet Him-you’ll not be spending eternity with Him-them’s the rules. That’s what He wanted of man from the beginning and His love for us demands that He’ll be satisfied with nothing less for us.

Molding/transforming/perfecting is the reason for our stay here in exile-not merely punishment-and more refinement could be required in the dreaded land of purgatory- well, dreaded to some, merciful to others. Love’s the goal, God asks for our cooperation in attaining it-it’s a grueling fight but worth it. Faith and hope are vehicles He gives and utilizes for helping us get to the goal but they’re insufficient in themselves-beautiful gifts to be sure and necessary now but useless in the end. He wants to populate heaven with beings made worthy, even tho they don’t start out that way. Who would want less than love?

Mans only imperfection is that he’s not God. Mans perfection is in coming to know that.
Then order is restored, Gods will is done, Love can reign within and without the hearts of all creation. Easier said than done but worth it. Now if you’d be so kind to offer a worthy counterargument, I’ll consider that. Otherwise I’m feeling a bit redundant these days. Maybe I’m not explaining myself well. If so, then I’ll have to concede defeat-it’s happened before.

Oh yes, the changes do take place within us-it’s a relative thing. If they’re not then we need to check the oil in our lamps. Is that clearer? Maybe not.
 
BTW, in Catholic theology, faith and hope can coexist with sin whereas love and sin are mutually exclusive.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I agree with all you have said and see that you are a thoughtful Catholic and most likely wiser than myself. As for perfection, what you say sounds reasonable. Love is a Queen Most Divine and no man is good enough to abide in Her for long. She is a goddess and immortal and perhaps only God may be her betrothed.

👍
Click to expand...
In heaven, at the final consummation in the Beatific Vision, we are betrothed to Love with no more desire to betray her-ever.
 
The more I think about this, the more differences I see between the virtues in certain areas. Faith and hope only became necessary because of sin-they were occasioned by sin in that sense-whereas love is the opposite of sin-to sin is to lack love. And while at least imperfect love and sin are allowed to coexist here due to Gods mercy (the wheat with the tares, both inside of us and out), ultimately that won’t be the case when God finally brings His justice to bear.

When perfect Love did condescend at one point to make its appearance on planet earth, placing itself as a fragile mortal in the hands of mortals, we made short work of it-couldn’t stand having that kind of perfection in our face. But Love rose again, triumphing over sin, and God’s given us time to sort this all out, if we’re willing, to reject sin and embrace Love fully, where He’ll no longer allow the two to live side by side, as it should be.
 
Excellent! All kidding aside about our duel, i promise to try to stick to the topic and find the most efficient way to the truth of the matter, with your help.

With this in mind, all that you have said is thoughtful and reasonable, FH. Yet i feel we are, as it were, taking in the vast beauty of Love from the top of a mountain, as though it were one beautiful forest. And just has a forest is made up of many different trees and plants and animal, some very different from the others, so the one Love made up of many different forms, some contrary to the others.

For example, one may love pizza, or love sin, or love God, and so the love of God cannot possibly be the love of sin, and the love of pizza differs from the other two.

The same may be said of Faith and Hope, of course. We have already defined the kind of Hope we are discussing as:

(a)

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness

(CCC 1817)

I think it would save much misunderstanding if you would help me understand what the Catholic definition of Faith and Love actually are. Or perhaps someone else reading this might help us by posting a reply with the Catholic definitions of Faith and Love.

Once i understand what you mean when you say the words Faith and Love i will better be able to respond to your recent posts and your posts that will follow.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Excellent! All kidding aside about our duel, i promise to try to stick to the topic and find the most efficient way to the truth of the matter, with your help.

With this in mind, all that you have said is thoughtful and reasonable, FH. Yet i feel we are, as it were, taking in the vast beauty of Love from the top of a mountain, as though it were one beautiful forest. Yet, just has a forest is made up of many different trees and plants and animal, some very different from the others, so the one Love made up of many different forms, some contrary to the others.

For example, one may love pizza, or love sin, or love God, and so the love of God cannot possibly be the love of sin, and the love of pizza differs from the other two.

The same may be said of Faith and Hope, of course. We have already defined the kind of Hope we are discussing as:

(a)Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness(CCC 1817)I think it would save much misunderstanding (like the one we had about whether we were discussing God’s virtue or yours and mine) if you would help me understand what the Catholic definition of Faith and Love actually are. Or perhaps someone else reading this might help us by posting a reply with the Catholic definitions of Faith and Love.

Once i understand what you mean when you say the words Faith and Love i will better be able to respond to your recent posts and your posts that will follow.
Click to expand...
For “faith”:
I extracted this bit from the CCC
Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself.
CCC 166
Click to expand...
If ones reads further (through article 184), I conclude that “faith” is much more that what can be contained in a simple definition. As a virtue, this implies to me that we would pactice becoming more responsive to God’s will.

For “love”:
Also from the CCC
To love is to will the good of another."
CCC 1766
Click to expand...
These are very simplistic definitions, but they may serve as a starting point.
 
BTW: i get the idea of the importance discovering from the one broad class of love the specific type of many loves of which we are discussing from Socrates, who gave this example:

What i mean is clear in the case of letters, and you should take your clue from them, since they were part of your own education. The sound that comes out of the mouth is one for each and every one of us, but then it is also unlimited in number. Neither of these two facts alone yet makes us knowledgeable, neither that we know is unlimitedness nor its unity. But if we know how many kinds of vocal sounds there are and what their number is, that makes every one of us literate.

(Philebus 17)

This is where our conversation went astray, earlier. Of the one class Love, you supposed we were speaking of the one of many categories which is the virtue of God Himself. On the other hand, i was speaking of something less great and less perfect and less beautiful, which is the virtue of love you or i might possess in the present.

Just as a person who discerns the meaning of specific combinations of sounds is literate, so a person who discerns the meaning of specific combinations of love achieves wisdom as to the nature of love itself. Discovering the nature of the virtue of love that God Himself possesses, and comparing this to the nature of the kind of Christian love you or i might posses will help me immensely in my pursuit of God Himself, i think. I believe St. Paul would agree, for he wrote:

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3)

Perhaps, then, you are beginning to see a method to my jest of jousting for ladies Hope, Faith and Love. The goal is to know Christ more deeply, and perhaps become a little more like Him than i was before.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
How should one define it?
Click to expand...
The best way I could define Hope is two words. Jesus Christ. It is to to his judgement that all hope lies. He is the one person who at the time of our death can give us his divine Mercy.

He is the Person at this time in our life that we can cling to when it seems the world is against us.

He is the person that can help us to follow the right path. Do guide us.

Hope is to never give up on Love. Love and Hope and Jesus all tie into one.👍 .
 
davidv said:
For “faith”:

Quote:Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself.
CCC 166
I extracted this bit from the CCCIf ones reads further (through article 184), I conclude that “faith” is much more that what can be contained in a simple definition. As a virtue, this implies to me that we would pactice becoming more responsive to God’s will.
Click to expand...
Thank you, David! Yet i believe you have not yet narrowed it down to a definition of Faith that will help us. The definition provided covers more than one specific kind of faith. Consider this:

A man who shakes his fist at God and refuses to repent would fit the definition provided. He might commit this act in response to God who reveals to him that he shall be judged for his sins. Compare this to a martyr who repents of his fear of death and praises God for the opportunity to give his life as an act of faith and love for Him is an other example that fits this definition. Yet the two examples are contrary and quite the opposite of one another, don’t you think?
 
davidv said:
For “love”:
Quote:
To love is to will the good of another."
CCC 1766
Also from the CCCThese are very simplistic definitions, but they may serve as a starting point.
Click to expand...
I think you might agree that the definition of Christian love provided suffers the same defect. This example appears to demonstrate what i mean:

Consider a man who is an atheist who out of great love of people argues against the Catholic Faith and, as a result, turns many away from Christ. Such a man wills the good of others, but his love is quite the opposite, and perhaps even opposed to, Christian love. Do you see what i mean?

We need better definitions of both Christian Faith and Christian Love to guide us.
 
rinnie said:
The best way I could define Hope is two words. Jesus Christ. It is to to his judgement that all hope lies. He is the one person who at the time of our death can give us his divine Mercy.

He is the Person at this time in our life that we can cling to when it seems the world is against us.

He is the person that can help us to follow the right path. Do guide us.

Hope is to never give up on Love. Love and Hope and Jesus all tie into one.👍 .
Click to expand...
Thank you, Rinnie!

👍
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Thank you, David! Yet i believe you have not yet narrowed it down to a definition of Faith that will help us. The definition provided covers more than one specific kind of faith. Consider this:

A man who shakes his fist at God and refuses to repent would fit the definition provided. He might commit this act in response to God who reveals to him that he shall be judged for his sins. Compare this to a martyr who repents of his fear of death and praises God for the opportunity to give his life as an act of faith and love for Him is an other example that fits this definition. Yet the two examples are contrary and quite the opposite of one another, don’t you think?
Click to expand...
Fair enough. Let’s look at “a personal act”. Based on the “Virtue” article referenced earlier, this act is primarily one of perfecting the intellect. This is an antidote to the “darkening of the mind” that was the result of the disobedience in the garden. This perfection would include knowing God better and better as the intellect grew in perfection.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top