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Socrates4Jesus
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Gotta go. I’ll return this evening.
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davidv
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I agree, God’s mercy is bountiful.
So, strong faith gives us a clear heard so as not to be deceived, and hope strengthens our will so we have the courage to act rightly. In so doing one demonstrates true love, agape.
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fhansen
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What, have we lost all hope here?
Yes, faith must exist in order for there to be something to hope in.
A possible problem I see here is that while faith is an assent to the truth of those promises, it is not a placing of ones trust in them, at least when we’re referring to the Catholic concept of the virtue of faith as we are here, even though in common usage faith often does imply trust. Hope is not to be relegated to too lowly a position because it is also a supernaturally endowed gift, the ability to want and trust in the promises faith informs us of.
We’re given the knowledge (beliefs) -and the ability to believe that they are true- with the virtue of faith. We’re given the confidence that these truths will lead us to eternal life with the virtue of hope. I believe that this is related to James’ statement that even demons believe, but tremble. They have faith in God but no hope that His promises apply to them.
The Catholic Encyclopedia puts it like this:
“Looked at in this way it [hope] is defined to be a Divine virtue by which we confidently expect, with God’s help, to reach eternal felicity as well as to have at our disposal the means of securing it.”
Are we saying the same thing?
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Socrates4Jesus
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Socrates4Jesus
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Fascinating! Reminds me of discussions i’ve had with others regarding the meaning of believe. Three meanings of believe to consider are
To think that something might be true
- To know that something is true
- To put one’s trust in the something one knows is true
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Socrates4Jesus
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Perhaps. If you agree with the series of cause and effect i suggested, then we might be saying the same thing. Please tell me whether you believe this is true or not:
Knowledge > Faith > Hope > Love
(i.e., knowledge causes faith, which causes hope, which causes love for God.)
It appears that you already believe that faith is a cause of hope. How about the rest?
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Socrates4Jesus
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Yes. So, do you think i’m correct in suggesting that knowledge causes faith, which causes hope, which causes love of God?
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fhansen
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Yes, I believe so. We must first hear the Word -gain the knowledge- but we can’t actually believe or know it to be true except that the virtue of faith be given us. Next hope can adhere to the truths in confidence they’ll be done in our lives. Finally, perfected love is the desired end.
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fhansen
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The theological virtue of faith is to know or believe that something is true by supernatural means.
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rinnie
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If I can say one thing, I disagree that strong faith always gives us a clear head. I think that means head, Because I think that you can be super strong in your faith, and still get clouded at times.
My example is Peter, He had more faith and Love for Jesus than any of the Apostles IMO. But then he got a little clouded in his thinking at times. I do not feel it had anything to do with his faith. I agree that Faith gets you back on the right track at times, but its still hard. Does that make any sense?
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davidv
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We were speaking of “faith” as one of the theological virtues. This is a excerpt from the"Virtue" article in the Catholic Enclopedia.
This implys that one who has perfected “faith”, has perfected the intellect. A perfected intellect cannot produce “cloudy” thinking.
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rinnie
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Oh okay, I see what you are saying, Then on that note I may have a different answer.
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rinnie
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Okay now here is what I see. If a person is tricked into doing something and his conscience is clear and his motives are pure there is not sin there to get mercy for.
But now the other guy. He is getting it worse. And God may not even have much Mercy on him. Because its bad enough to sin, but to cause others to sin, look out. That makes God even more upset. What is that bible verse for someone who is the cause of ones sin? I can’t remember it off the top of my head.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Perhaps you are correct.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Agreed! So it seems there is a fourth virtue, which me might call Wisdom, and you and i are good to call her the cause of the other three, for as Socrates tells us:
… all the wise are agreed, in true self-exaltation, that reason is our king, both over heaven and earth. And perhaps they are justified."
(Philebus 28)
So, i should say as Socrates said to his friend Protarchus:
Well, then, now face up to the consequences of this position that we have come to terms with.
(Philebus 29)
Do you now see, my friend FH, what the consequences are of saying that Faith is the case of Hope and Love?
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Socrates4Jesus
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Well said, Rinnie, and i believe Jesus agrees with you, for He said:
"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
“Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!”
(Matthew 18)
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davidv
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Huh???A will-o’-the-wisp, that stops people giving up when they ought to, by cheating them with the delusion that things will improve. Which is why it was in Pandora’s box - because it is an evil
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fhansen
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Well, you suggested a variety of ways of valuing the virtues.If we’re to rank faith, hope and love according to inherent value I’d still say love’s the clear winner-it existed before the other two were even necessary-it always existed. If we rank them in terms of the possibility of a human being’s perfection relative to them, they could all be even. If we rank them in terms of their value for the purpose of achieving salvation, they’re all invaluable, along with other dispositions. We’re saved by being made holy as God is holy, perfect as He is perfect, sinless, and this perfection means to come to love perfectly-with our cooperation-faith being only one component of the process.
As far as causation, people can possess any of the virtues without hearing the Word at all, although they would be possessed very imperfectly. Otherwise, to rank the virtues according to their order of causation in Gods formal plan of salvation, faith (meaning belief in knowledge of supernatural things initiated by hearing the Word), then hope (placing ones trust in the promises), then love (the ultimate goal), is probably the way it generally works for people but we can’t have one without the other anyway so they cannot be isolated: From the CCC:
**1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77
1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.
1826 “If I . . . have not charity,” says the Apostle, “I am nothing.” Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, "if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing."103 Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: "So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity."104
1828 The practice of the moral life animated by charity gives to the Christian the spiritual freedom of the children of God. He no longer stands before God as a slave, in servile fear, or as a mercenary looking for wages, but as a son responding to the love of him who “first loved us”:106
If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.107
**
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