Hope

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fhansen said:
I think this from the Catholic Encyclopedia could be helpful:

Theological virtues

All virtues have as their final scope to dispose man to acts conducive to his true happiness. The happiness, however, of which man is capable is twofold, namely, natural, which is attainable by man’s natural powers, and supernatural, which exceeds the capacity of unaided human nature. Since, therefore, merely natural principles of human action are inadequate to a supernatural end, it is necessary that man be endowed with supernatural powers to enable him to attain his final destiny. Now these supernatural principles are nothing else than the theological virtues. They are called theological
  1. because they have God for their immediate and proper object;
  2. because they are Divinely infused;
  3. because they are known only through Divine Revelation.
The theological virtues are three, viz. faith, hope, and charity.
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Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, FH and thank you for committing yourself to see this exploration through to the end! We are nearing that end, i believe.

👍

When i consider these three stipulations, i see that they describe what makes a thought, word, or deed a virtue. It seems to me they are applicable to all three virtues in the same degree.

These three requirements, however, only hint at what makes a virtue great, i think. So, after giving this some thought and prayer, i came to this tentative conclusion: Since virtues have God as one of their objects, they might have become like God as one of their objectives. Thus, i’d like to suggest this premise:

4a. What makes a virtue great is it’s ability to make the person who practices it in thought, word and deed, more like Jesus Christ.

Does this sound good to you?
 
I’d be interested to hear what David, Hamlet, Ut and others think, too, as we near the end of the dialog.

🙂
 
4a. What makes a virtue great is it’s ability to make the person who practices it in thought, word and deed, more like Jesus Christ.

Does this sound good to you?

It sounds excellent!

I might change “thought” to something more closely related to the SELF; i.e., the “soul” or a faculty of the soul the “mind.” Although, “the person” implies the SELF. A problem with using one of my suggestions is replacing a verb with a noun. Never the less, that is my (name removed by moderator)ut. I hope it helps.

Again, It sounds excellent: simplicity is the art of a genius.

Be careful my friend Socrates, don’t get the big head. God resist the proud…ask MacBeth.
 
Coming on the scene late in this conversation, I don’t see much mention of the Holy Father’s document “Spe Salvi” which addresses the topic of hope. It is worth a read and some thoughtful commentary.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, FH and thank you for committing yourself to see this exploration through to the end! We are nearing that end, i believe.

👍

When i consider these three stipulations, i see that they describe what makes a thought, word, or deed a virtue. It seems to me they are applicable to all three virtues in the same degree.

These three requirements, however, only hint at what makes a virtue great, i think. So, after giving this some thought and prayer, i came to this tentative conclusion: Since virtues have God as one of their objects, they might have become like God as one of their objectives. Thus, i’d like to suggest this premise:

4a. What makes a virtue great is it’s ability to make the person who practices it in thought, word and deed, more like Jesus Christ. Does this sound good to you?
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I agree as it fits nicely with this quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on Virtue:
All virtues have as their final scope to dispose man to acts conducive to his true happiness.
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Where our true happiness is only found in being Christlike.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Original sin = the event in history when the human race first disobeyed God. The result was that this disposition to disobey was passed on to all human offspring to this day. It’s akin to a genetic disease of the soul.
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I’m seriously gonna kick adam and eve’s butt’s when I meet them 😛
 
Hamlet123 said:
It sounds excellent!

I might change “thought” to something more closely related to the SELF; i.e., the “soul” or a faculty of the soul the “mind.” Although, “the person” implies the SELF. A problem with using one of my suggestions is replacing a verb with a noun. Never the less, that is my (name removed by moderator)ut. I hope it helps.

Again, It sounds excellent: simplicity is the art of a genius.

Be careful my friend Socrates, don’t get the big head. God resist the proud…ask MacBeth.
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Yes, Hamlet, if you are speaking of the difference between processes of the soul (such as rational thoughts or emotions) as compared to sensations of the body (such as feelings of pain or pleasure) i think i agree. For example, a feeling of intense bodily pleasure (such as sexual pleasure) would not be virtuous, but the overwhelming compassion for one’s wife during such intercourse might be considered a virtue. Is this the idea at which you are getting?

Thank you for the cautionary statement regarding pride. I should point out that i’ve been wrong perhaps more than i’ve been right in this dialog, and suspect i’ll be proven wrong more than once before it is through. To keep myself from becoming proud, it helps when i understand that these ideas are not my own, but those that i’ve picked up from others (such as all of you), or from great lovers of wisdom like Socrates, or even from God. I believe anyone who sincerely asks God for wisdom will receive it, so any small wisdom i’ve received is available to anyone.
 
Sister_G said:
Coming on the scene late in this conversation, I don’t see much mention of the Holy Father’s document “Spe Salvi” which addresses the topic of hope. It is worth a read and some thoughtful commentary.
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Would you like to tell us in your own words, Sister what the Holy Father had to say about the Fair Lady Hope?
 
davidv said:
I agree as it fits nicely with this quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on Virtue:
Where our true happiness is only found in being Christlike.
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True, David, especially if the only way to be close enough to embrace Jesus is to be like Him.

👍
 
Very well, then, our Amazon Warriors are donning their armor and strapping on their swords. Here the goddess virtues are, in all their alluring beauty, as far as our limited mind’s eyes can see them:

1b. Faith is a belief and a virtue the God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Faith is not an emotion, rather, it is knowledge that something is true or someone is trustworthy, and can be (though might not always be) certainty and complete trust in that truth or person. Faith is usually a reasoned response to evidence (either observed or communicated) and usually a rational (though sometimes an irrational) belief. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Faith in God. An example of Faith is a Catholic who believes that God is and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. He might have a rational trust that God exists and that He will answer His prayers, though not always the way he expects.

2b. Hope is an emotion and a virtue that God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Hope is not rational thought, rather, it is a pleasurable feeling of expectation that some future good will result. Hope is sometimes a non-rational (though not always an irrational) conviction of certainty and even trust in some expected future event or in someone. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Hope in God. An example of Hope is a Catholic who prays that God will heal her sick daughter and ends her prayer with the words, “Not my will but Thy will be done.” She might have a hopeful trust that God answers prayer and a hopeful expectation (though not a certain one) that God will indeed heal her child.

3b. Love is an emotion, and a decision to act, and a virtue that God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Love is non-rational, insofar as it is a feeling of compassion toward another. Love is rational, insofar as it is a reasoned determination to act in the best interest of another. Love feels kindness toward, and decides to do what is best for, others regardless of their love or hatred for the one loving them. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Love for others and for in God. An example of Love is a Catholic who prays for those who persecute her and does good to those who spitefully use her. She might love them despite their hatred for her, being motivated by her love for Jesus, who first loved, and continues to love, her.

Our referee of this clash the divine shall judge them by this tentative standard, with perhaps a few modifications before we begin:

4b. What makes a virtue great is its ability to make the person who practices it in thought, word and deed, more like Jesus Christ, so that the one made more like Him may draw nearer to Him.

To the death, then! May the greatest virtue be the last standing!


Faith

http://wfn.typepad.com/.a/6a0105364cdc73970c010536998ff9970b-800wi
Hope

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Kill-Bill-v1-01.jpg
Love
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Very well, then, our Amazon Warriors are donning their armor and strapping on their swords. Here the goddess virtues are, in all their alluring beauty, as far as our limited mind’s eyes can see them:

1b. Faith is a belief and a virtue the God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Faith is not an emotion, rather, it is knowledge that something is true or someone is trustworthy, and can be (though might not always be) certainty and complete trust in that truth or person. Faith is usually a reasoned response to evidence (either observed or communicated) and usually a rational (though sometimes an irrational) belief. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Faith in God. An example of Faith is a Catholic who believes that God is and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. He might have a rational trust that God exists and that He will answer His prayers, though not always the way he expects.
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In other words, the map to our ultimate destination. Or to use another metaphor, the lights that lead us along the way.
2b. Hope is an emotion and a virtue that God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Hope is not rational thought, rather, it is a pleasurable feeling of expectation that some future good will result. Hope is sometimes a non-rational (though not always an irrational) conviction of certainty and even trust in some expected future event or in someone. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Hope in God. An example of Hope is a Catholic who prays that God will heal her sick daughter and ends her prayer with the words, “Not my will but Thy will be done.” She might have a hopeful trust that God answers prayer and a hopeful expectation (though not a certain one) that God will indeed heal her child.
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In otherwords, that which motivates us, which is the belief that we will eventually reach our goal. This aspiration gives us joy and peace along the path, helps us to percevere and to overcome all obstacles.
3a. Love is an emotion, and a decision to act, and a virtue that God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Love is non-rational, insofar as it is a feeling of compassion toward another. Love is rational, insofar as it is a reasoned determination to act in the best interest of another. Love feels kindness toward, and decides to do what is best for, others regardless of their love or hatred for the one loving them. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Love for others and for in God. An example of Love is a Catholic who prays for those who persecute her and does good to those who spitefully use her. She might love them despite their hatred for her, being motivated by her love for Jesus, who first loved, and continues to love, her.
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I would reverse this sentence “The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Love for others and for in God.” so that it reads, “The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Love for in God and for others..” Nothing ought to be prefered to the love for God “whoever does not hate mother or father, or brother, or sister, cannot follow me.” and “You cannot serve both Mammon and God, because you will hate one and love the other.” All our loves (filia, storge, eros, etc…) need to be purified by the love of God first, then we can love for the sake of our love for God, because he commands it. This is when our love truly become agape.
Our referee of this clash the divine shall judge them by this tentative standard, with perhaps a few modifications before we begin:
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4a. What makes a virtue great is its ability to make the person who practices it in thought, word and deed, more like Jesus Christ.
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To the death, then! May the greatest virtue be the last standing!
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This issue I have with this standard is that Jesus is the second person of the holy Trinity. We cannot measure up to him. However, we should live knowing that we will be judged by him, the one who has compassion for our human frailty, and who forgives our sins. The ultimate goal of the Christian is unity with Christ, and through Christ, unity with the Holy Trinity.
John 17:22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me…
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So that they may be one (Ut unum sint). This unity with God brings about the unity of mankind. In this way, the first commandment brings about the fulfilment of the second commandment.

I would also like to note that in heaven, faith, which describes the object that our hope aspires to will be fulfilled in the possessing of that object, which is God. In this end, only love remains.

God bless,
Ut
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Yes, Hamlet, if you are speaking of the difference between processes of the soul (such as rational thoughts or emotions) as compared to sensations of the body (such as feelings of pain or pleasure) i think i agree. For example, a feeling of intense bodily pleasure (such as sexual pleasure) would not be virtuous,

Thank you for the cautionary statement regarding pride. I should point out that i’ve been wrong perhaps more than i’ve been right in this dialog, and suspect i’ll be proven wrong more than once before it is through. To keep myself from becoming proud, it helps when i understand that these ideas are not my own, but those that i’ve picked up from others (such as all of you), or from great lovers of wisdom like Socrates, or even from God. I believe anyone who sincerely asks God for wisdom will receive it, so any small wisdom i’ve received is available to anyone.
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First, your differentiation between the processes of the soul and the sensations of the body might help to find a solution to the gramatical problem of inserting a verb within the list of nouns.

Are you (in your example) saying this pleasure would be a vice? And if so, why? Arre you implying it is sex outside of marrigae?

but the overwhelming compassion for one’s wife during such intercourse might be considered a virtue. Is this the idea at which you are getting?

Yes, I think yes, your statement is clear, but your example (to me) is a bit hazy. Could you provide another example?

And one last comment:
I think I may be wrong on this idea of SELF or soul being in the definition; when there is a discussion about a person’s qualities, isn’t it usually incorporating the person’s soul. Aren’t we talking about a person’s soul (anyway)? For example, “he’s a good guy” or “she’s a true person” are all qualities of a person’s soul. And so, would adding something about the soul be redundant? I may have taken up unnecesary time - such is life.

I wrote this comment in an attempt at livity. Your humility screems through the pages. I have only read you for a couple of weeks and enjoy you as much as Peter Kreeft. I hope I can find other blogs that you are engaged with.
 
Churchill, “The greatest virtue is courage. Without it no other virtue survives.” Ok, maybe these aren’t his exact words - but somethiing like these.
 
Hamlet123 said:
Churchill, “The greatest virtue is courage. Without it no other virtue survives.” Ok, maybe these aren’t his exact words - but somethiing like these.
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I think love is the en-couraging factor that motivated Jesus. Without love, what does survival of anything matter?
 
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