Hope

[Hamlet123]

I think love is the en-couraging factor that motivated Jesus. Without love, what does survival of anything matter?

Excellent. But do you have more data. What other examples will lead to the conclusion that the source of Courage is Love? And do you have enough to outweight other alternatives? Are there any or other examples of Courage arising from something else?

I intuitively think,that courage is a product of Faith, Hope and Love and (that there is) someone who can demonstrate that F, H, and L are one. I have been waiting for that in this blog. I have seen or rather read signs and inuendoes to this affect.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

In other words, the map to our ultimate destination. Or to use another metaphor, the lights that lead us along the way.

In otherwords, that which motivates us, which is the belief that we will eventually reach our goal. This aspiration gives us joy and peace along the path, helps us to percevere and to overcome all obstacles.

I would reverse this sentence “The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Love for others and for in God.” so that it reads, “The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Love for in God and for others..” Nothing ought to be prefered to the love for God “whoever does not hate mother or father, or brother, or sister, cannot follow me.” and “You cannot serve both Mammon and God, because you will hate one and love the other.” All our loves (filia, storge, eros, etc…) need to be purified by the love of God first, then we can love for the sake of our love for God, because he commands it. This is when our love truly become agape.

This issue I have with this standard is that Jesus is the second person of the holy Trinity. We cannot measure up to him. However, we should live knowing that we will be judged by him, the one who has compassion for our human frailty, and who forgives our sins. The ultimate goal of the Christian is unity with Christ, and through Christ, unity with the Holy Trinity.
…
God bless,
Ut

Let me know if these modifications meet with your approval, Ut:

1c. Faith is a belief and a virtue the God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Faith is not an emotion, rather, it is knowledge that something is true or someone is trustworthy, and can be (though might not always be) certainty and complete trust in that truth or person. Faith is usually a reasoned response to evidence (either observed or communicated) and usually a rational (though sometimes an irrational) belief. Faith helps a Catholic or other Christian foster courage to do what is good and righteous and virtuous. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Faith in God. An example of Faith is a Catholic who believes that God is and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. He might have a rational trust that God exists and that He will answer His prayers, though not always the way he expects.

2c. Hope is an emotion and a virtue that God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Hope is not rational thought, rather, it is a pleasurable feeling of expectation that some future good will result. Hope is sometimes a non-rational (though not always an irrational) conviction of certainty and even trust in some expected future event or in someone. **Hope motivates the Catholic or other Christian to not give up doing what is good and right and virtuous. ** The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Hope in God. An example of Hope is a Catholic who prays that God will heal her sick daughter and ends her prayer with the words, “Not my will but Thy will be done.” She might have a hopeful trust that God answers prayer and a hopeful expectation (though not a certain one) that God will indeed heal her child.

3c. Love is an emotion, and a decision to act, and a virtue that God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Love is non-rational, insofar as it is a feeling of compassion toward another. Love is rational, insofar as it is a reasoned determination to act in the best interest of another. Love feels kindness toward, and decides to do what is best for, others regardless of their love or hatred for the one loving them. **The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Love for in God and for others, putting love for God above love for self and above love for all others. ** An example of Love is a Catholic who prays for those who persecute her and does good to those who spitefully use her. She might love them despite their hatred for her, being motivated by her love for Jesus, who first loved, and continues to love, her.

4c. What makes a virtue great is its ability to make the person who practices it in thought, word and deed, more like Jesus Christ. No Catholic or other Christian can possibly become as good and righteous and virtuous as He, but the goal of each should be to become more and more like Him and to draw closer and closer to Him, looking forward to the day that she meets Him face to face.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

First, your differentiation between the processes of the soul and the sensations of the body might help to find a solution to the gramatical problem of inserting a verb within the list of nouns.

Are you (in your example) saying this pleasure would be a vice? And if so, why? Arre you implying it is sex outside of marrigae?

but the overwhelming compassion for one’s wife during such intercourse might be considered a virtue. Is this the idea at which you are getting?

Yes, I think yes, your statement is clear, but your example (to me) is a bit hazy. Could you provide another example?

I was trying to figure out what you were saying, Hamlet and using an example that i thought demonstrated the point you made. My suggestion was that the sexual act between a husband and wife might be neither virtue nor vice in and of itself, but neutral. The motivation behind the act (such as husband’s love for his wife) might be a virtue. On the other hand, if the husband’s motivation was more selfish (perhaps making love when the wife was not in the mood) it might be a vice.

Another example: The act of eating a blueberry pie is not sinful nor virtuous in and of itself. Eating a blueberry pie while watching a starving child across the street drool might be sinful. Eating a blueberry pie that tastes horrid so as to not hurt the feelings of the one who baked it might be virtuous and an act of love. Eating a blueberry pie one made himself when there is no starving child wanting a bite and no one with whom to share it might be neither virtue nor vice.

That’s not to say that there are no acts intrinsically evil or good regardless of the motivations behind the acts. However, acts that are so evil that they can never be considered virtuous would necessarily have wrong (or deranged) motives behind them. I’m not as sure that there are acts that are so good that the motives behind them must necessarily be good as well. No matter how good the results of an act, the person committing that act might do so for the wrong reasons. Therefore, any good act might actually be sinful. It all depends on why the person commits the act and how God judges it.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Churchill, “The greatest virtue is courage. Without it no other virtue survives.” Ok, maybe these aren’t his exact words - but somethiing like these.

Do you think, good Hamlet, that Faith (or trust) in something or someone is what makes one courageous?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think love is the en-couraging factor that motivated Jesus. Without love, what does survival of anything matter?

I agree. However, don’t you think, FH that hope and faith also motivated Jesus Christ to embrace the cross for you and me?

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
(Matthew 26)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…
And one last comment:
I think I may be wrong on this idea of SELF or soul being in the definition; when there is a discussion about a person’s qualities, isn’t it usually incorporating the person’s soul. Aren’t we talking about a person’s soul (anyway)? For example, “he’s a good guy” or “she’s a true person” are all qualities of a person’s soul. And so, would adding something about the soul be redundant? I may have taken up unnecesary time - such is life.

I wrote this comment in an attempt at livity. Your humility screems through the pages. I have only read you for a couple of weeks and enjoy you as much as Peter Kreeft. I hope I can find other blogs that you are engaged with.

Yes, that is my thinking, and Socrates’ as well. The soul (or mind as some modern thinkers might say) is responsible for a thought, word or deed being a virtue or vice. And thanks for the encouragement!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…
So that they may be one (Ut unum sint). This unity with God brings about the unity of mankind. In this way, the first commandment brings about the fulfilment of the second commandment.

I would also like to note that in heaven, faith, which describes the object that our hope aspires to will be fulfilled in the possessing of that object, which is God. In this end, only love remains.

God bless,
Ut

If you are correct, then i fear there is no hope for Hope and no reason to put faith in the viability of Faith. But before we seal their fates, please tell. Is really no place for Hope and Faith in eternity, Ut? How do you know?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Typo. I should have typed:

But before we seal their fates, please tell me. Is there really no place for Hope and Faith in eternity, Ut? How do you know?

 

[fhansen]

I agree. However, don’t you think, FH that hope and faith also motivated Jesus Christ to embrace the cross for you and me?

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
(Matthew 26)

I’m not sure. The Church teaches that Jesus, as an attribute of His human nature, * always* possessed the immediate vision of God. Would that not exclude the need for faith and hope?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m not sure. The Church teaches that Jesus, as an attribute of His human nature, * always* possessed the immediate vision of God. Would that not exclude the need for faith and hope?

One would think. However, when i consider how much the Son of God knows and how much the human brain is capable of knowing, i think that the Son of God would have had to place some limitations on what His human body would be able to comprehend.

Scientists tell us that we each use about 10% of our brain’s capacity. I suppose that even if Jesus the man used 100% it would not be enough. His brain’s capacity would be like a drop in the bucket. Or, to put it perhaps a better way, His brain might have been able to hold a bucket-full of knowledge, but the mind of the Son of God would still have held the ocean. In short, i think there was much that Jesus the Son of God understood that Jesus the Son of Man did not.

All this is just my best guess. However, this much seems certain: Jesus was experiencing great anguish in prayer the evening before His crucifixion. There seemed to be some hope that there was some other way of which He was not privy, of saving my sorry soul and yours, for this is that for which He asked. There was faith that God the Father knew what was best, for He prayed, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.” There was great love for you and me (though why, i fail to see) and perhaps for the Father, for He made up His mind to do what He hoped and prayed He would not have to do. As some wise one once said, it was love that held Him to that cross.

Yes, Jesus demonstrated the virtues of faith, hope and love perfectly, i believe. But do His actions tell us anything helpful about which of the three Lady Virtues is the greatest?

 

[fhansen]

One would think. However, when i consider how much the Son of God knows and how much the human brain is capable of knowing, i think that the Son of God would have had to place some limitations on what His human body would be able to comprehend.

Scientists tell us that we each use about 10% of our brain’s capacity. I suppose that even if Jesus the man used 100% it would not be enough. His brain’s capacity would be like a drop in the bucket. Or, to put it perhaps a better way, His brain might have been able to hold a bucket-full of knowledge, but the mind of the Son of God would still have held the ocean. In short, i think there was much that Jesus the Son of God understood that Jesus the Son of Man did not.

All this is just my best guess. However, this much seems certain: Jesus was experiencing great anguish in prayer the evening before His crucifixion. There seemed to be some hope that there was some other way of which He was not privy, of saving my sorry soul and yours, for this is that for which He asked. There was faith that God the Father knew what was best, for He prayed, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.” There was great love for you and me (though why, i fail to see) and perhaps for the Father, for He made up His mind to do what He hoped and prayed He would not have to do. As some wise one once said, it was love that held Him to that cross.

Yes, Jesus demonstrated the virtues of faith, hope and love perfectly, i believe. But do His actions tell us anything helpful about which of the three Lady Virtues is the greatest?

Well, one way or the other He laid down His life for us, an act of which there’s no greater love.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, one way or the other He laid down His life for us, an act for which there’s no greater love.

True, and good for me and you! Yet i cannot help but think that His willing torture and execution was also an act of hope and an act of faith. It was hope, i think, that you or i, and countless others like us, would realize the extent to which He went to demonstrate His love for us. It was faith, i trust, that God the Father would not let His death be in vain and raise not only Him, but also the likes of you or i after death.

In fact, i suppose if we examined every good thing that Jesus said or did, we might find all three virtues to some degree in every word and deed. How then, i wonder, are we going to know for certain that Love really is, as St. Paul claimed, the greatest of the three?

 

[fhansen]

True, and good for me and you! Yet i cannot help but think that His willing torture and execution was also an act of hope and an act of faith. It was hope, i think, that you or i, and countless others like us, would realize the extent to which He went to demonstrate His love for us. It was faith, i trust, that God the Father would not let His death be in vain and raise not only Him, but also the likes of you or i after death.

In fact, i suppose if we examined every good thing that Jesus said or did, we might find all three virtues to some degree in every word and deed. How then, i wonder, are we going to know for certain that Love really is, as St. Paul claimed, the greatest of the three?

Faith and hope have as their object something which they aspire to for the future. Alone they have nothing to offer but a promise-they aren’t the promised prize itself.

 

[utunumsint]

Typo. I should have typed:

But before we seal their fates, please tell me. Is there really no place for Hope and Faith in eternity, Ut? How do you know?

We hope for what we do not have. In heaven, we will have the object of our hope. Maybe instead of saying there is no hope in heaven it might be better to say hope is fulfilled.

If we see faith as reasoned knowledge about doctines, then much that has to do with faith will pass away as the objects of faith are fulfilled. Especially prophecy. Much of the doctrines of faith have to do with this present age. Confession in heaven will not be required because sin will no longer be present. Matrimony will also be no more since the purpose of marriage (procreation) will be fulfilled. However, love will remain.

I’ll say this though. There may be new things to hope for in this future life, but they will not be the object of hope described by Paul. We will all have union with God.

Just some thoughts…and the baby is crying. Got to go.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Faith and hope have as their object something which they aspire to for the future. Alone they have nothing to offer but a promise-they aren’t the promised prize itself.

But what of Love? Is she the promise or the prize herself?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

We hope for what we do not have. In heaven, we will have the object of our hope. Maybe instead of saying there is no hope in heaven it might be better to say hope is fulfilled. …

Yes, and i’m reminded of St. Paul’s words:

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
(Romans 8)

It would seem that the hope of our bodies, which is immortality and the end of pain, will be realized. It would also seem that the ultimate hope of our souls, which is seeing Jesus face to face, will be realized.

Perhaps one hope will remain for a time, the hope that others will follow us. This, it seems, is still the hope of Mary, for do you and others not pray asking her to “pray for us sinners”? This hope too, i think, will even come to an end when there are no sinners left for which she can pray.

Unless one of us can find any clue of anything for which to hope in eternity, it seems our Lady Hope is the first casualty of this combat.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… If we see faith as reasoned knowledge about doctines, then much that has to do with faith will pass away as the objects of faith are fulfilled. Especially prophecy. Much of the doctrines of faith have to do with this present age. Confession in heaven will not be required because sin will no longer be present. Matrimony will also be no more since the purpose of marriage (procreation) will be fulfilled. However, love will remain.

I’ll say this though. There may be new things to hope for in this future life, but they will not be the object of hope described by Paul. We will all have union with God.

Just some thoughts…and the baby is crying. Got to go.

God bless,
Ut

And there will also be no more crying!



And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
(Revelation 21)

Perhaps there will be new hopes in eternity, but i think we should make our decision as to the fate of the Virtue Warrior Hope based on what we know rather than what we guess. At this moment, i can think of no cause to hope in eternity after the final Judgment. That’s not to say that there will be hoplessness, either. It appears there will be neither hope nor its opposite.

Faith, however, does not seem to suffer the same fate. For, as was discussed earlier, the greatest Faith is one that trusts, and i cannot fathom anyone not trusting God in eternity! I believe that even then we will trust Him every day (if there are such things as days) of the time that transcends time. Sure, the trust might be akin to trusting that the multiplication tables are true, but it will be trust nonetheless.

 

[fhansen]

But what of Love? Is she the promise or the prize herself?

The promise which faith and hope know of and cling to is the prize of eternal life spent with Eternal Love. Our love and Gods’ can’t be separated-all love comes from Him and He loves through us. The promise comes closer to fulfillment-and is already being fulfilled- as our love grows until ultimately it is perfected. Then we can be -or are-one with Him. One in will and one united in Love.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The promise which faith and hope know of and cling to is the prize of eternal life spent with Eternal Love. Our love and Gods’ can’t be separated-all love comes from Him and He loves through us. The promise comes closer to fulfillment-and is already being fulfilled- as our love grows until ultimately it is perfected. Then we can be -or are-one with Him. One in will and one united in Love.

Well, i prefer to use the word gift rather than prize, for that is the word St. Paul himself used:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6)

However, finding out what he meant by calling eternal life a gift instead of a reward is not the purpose of this dialog. We’ve come to far to go down that rabbit trail!

So, would you say FH that one reason why Love is greatest of all is that when you or i practice this virtue it pleases God?

 

[utunumsint]

And there will also be no more crying!



And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
(Revelation 21)

Perhaps there will be new hopes in eternity, but i think we should make our decision as to the fate of the Virtue Warrior Hope based on what we know rather than what we guess. At this moment, i can think of no cause to hope in eternity after the final Judgment. That’s not to say that there will be hoplessness, either. It appears there will be neither hope nor its opposite.

Agreed. It seems reasonable enough to deduce this. Although in all dialogues about the future life, I always try to keep in mind these words “Eye has not seen, nor ear has heard what God has in store for those who love him.”

Faith, however, does not seem to suffer the same fate. For, as was discussed earlier, the greatest Faith is one that trusts, and i cannot fathom anyone not trusting God in eternity! I believe that even then we will trust Him every day (if there are such things as days) of the time that transcends time. Sure, the trust might be akin to trusting that the multiplication tables are true, but it will be trust nonetheless.

Yes, but if I remember correctly, trust is only part of your definition of faith. One trusts in God, and in everything he has revealed about himself. My point is that there are some things that God has revealed that will pass away with time. They do not belong to the eternal heavenly bliss. There are also some things that are currently being fulfilled, and there are some things that he has revealed that remain in the past.

For example, even though God commanded the Isrealites to worship him in the tent after revealing the ten commandments, and to offer sacrifices, there was a change in this command. He then commanded them to worship in the temple. Then when Christ came, he abolished temple worship, and Christ himself became the pinacle of worship. Within us, we became living temples of God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

All of the things I mentioned belonged to faith, then passed away. The people of God obeyed God’s commands through each change God proposed in the Faith. Perhaps you could call this the Obedience of Faith that Paul mentions in Romans 1.

But then the thought occurs to me, what is the purpose of Faith? What was the point of all those rituals that the Jews had to do, and of our own worship today? The purpose is to cleanse our hearts, to make them pure, so that we can be pleasing to God, and dwell with him for all eternity (Love God, and love neighbour). The faith and our trust in God is only good insofar as they serve these two ends, which are the purpose and goal of our religion.

This makes faith subservient to Love, but it does not do away with faith…

Here is another thought. All the things we believe through faith are revealed by God and can only be believed if we trust in the one who reveals. This requires a kind of blindness on our parts, since those things which are available to use through the power of our own reason are grasped by sight, in a sense. So reason tells us that 2 +2 is 4, that the sky is blue, and that the ground is solid, etc… We don’t normally say that we take these things on faith. They are self evident.

And I think this is my point about faith. We wont have to trust, simply based on the testimony of others and the testimony miracles, all of which are beyond our power to verify using scientific means. We will see, and in seeing God, all that is proposed to us for belief will be self evident. So it wouldn’t be proper to call it faith.

To put it another way, I believe it was Jesus who said “Blessed are those who believe, and yet have not seen.” This implies that our merit is greater the less our faith is based on miracles, visions, etc… But when we are in heaven with God, we will see him face to face. And so our faith will have no merit in this circumstance.

God bless,
Ut