Hope

[fhansen]

Well, i prefer to use the word gift rather than prize, for that is the word St. Paul himself used:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6)

However, finding out what he meant by calling eternal life a gift instead of a reward is not the purpose of this dialog. We’ve come to far to go down that rabbit trail!

So, would you say FH that one reason why Love is greatest of all is that when you or i practice this virtue it pleases God?

There’re several examples of these so we wouldn’t need to pursue it to too far anyway:
**I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.Phil 3:14
**
It brings up an interesting point, however, because in Catholicism salvation is considered to be a ***gift ***but one not obtained without our cooperation-hence also a prize we must persevere in pursuing.

Yes, practicing Love pleases God. As we grow in it we’re molded or conformed into His likeness.

 

[fhansen]

Excellent. But do you have more data. What other examples will lead to the conclusion that the source of Courage is Love? And do you have enough to outweight other alternatives? Are there any or other examples of Courage arising from something else?

These verses speak to love and courage:
**Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down one’s life for one’s friends
John 15:13

“There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.” --1 John 4:18**

And from St Augustine:
“love bearing all things for the sake of the beloved.”

I intuitively think,that courage is a product of Faith, Hope and Love and (that there is) someone who can demonstrate that F, H, and L are one. I have been waiting for that in this blog. I have seen or rather read signs and inuendoes to this affect.

In this verse we see love containing trust and hope-and even courage in being protective and persevering:
It [love] always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.1Cor 13

 

[Hamlet123]

These verses speak to love and courage:
**Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down one’s life for one’s friends
John 15:13

“There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.” --1 John 4:18**

And from St Augustine:
“love bearing all things for the sake of the beloved.”

I must tell you, your comments are moving. As a believer in the infallibility of scripture and a lover of Augustine, your proposition is most compellings; however, your arguement may be an “ad verecundiam” material fallacy: relying on too little authority or unreliable authority, or the misunderstanding of authority to support one’s claim. Is this your only proof? Do you have data; for example, We have observed 50,234,000 geese. They are all white. Therefore all geese are white.

Now, I believe authority is often a solid form of evidence and usually the only form of evidence; as Chesterton noted, “Bowing down to blind credulity, as is my custom, before mere authority, and the tradition of elders, superstitiously swallowing a story I could not test at the time of my experiment or private judgement, I am firmly of the opinion that I was born may the 29th, 1874, on Campden Hill, Kinsington, and baptized according to the formularies of the Church of England…”
But it should always be checked as the last source albeit often it is the only source. Though I may be giving intuition a short credit. Now authority when the authority is without credence, unreliable, often misunderstood ( the bible), ambiguous, Big Name (Arnold Palmer) then authority finds itself of little value for rational purposes but an excellent treasure for rhetoric.

I hope you are right. I would like to be able to provide an argument to support it. Can you help further?

 

[fhansen]

fhansen;4834108:

These verses speak to love and courage:
**Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down one’s life for one’s friends
John 15:13

“There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.” --1 John 4:18**

And from St Augustine:
“love bearing all things for the sake of the beloved.”

I must tell you, your comments are moving. As a believer in the infallibility of scripture and a lover of Augustine, your proposition is most compellings; however, your arguement may be an “ad verecundiam” material fallacy: relying on too little authority or unreliable authority, or the misunderstanding of authority to support one’s claim. Is this your only proof? Do you have data; for example, We have observed 50,234,000 geese. They are all white. Therefore all geese are white.

Now, I believe authority is often a solid form of evidence and usually the only form of evidence; as Chesterton noted, “Bowing down to blind credulity, as is my custom, before mere authority, and the tradition of elders, superstitiously swallowing a story I could not test at the time of my experiment or private judgement, I am firmly of the opinion that I was born may the 29th, 1874, on Campden Hill, Kinsington, and baptized according to the formularies of the Church of England…”
But it should always be checked as the last source albeit often it is the only source. Though I may be giving intuition a short credit. Now authority when the authority is without credence, unreliable, often misunderstood ( the bible), ambiguous, Big Name (Arnold Palmer) then authority finds itself of little value for rational purposes but an excellent treasure for rhetoric.

I hope you are right. I would like to be able to provide an argument to support it. Can you help further?
Probably not much. I knew I didn’t have much to offer there but if I have time I’ll do a little more research and would be interested in hearing from yourself or others if you come up with anything on it as well. My own persuasion as to the power, supremacy and all-encompassing nature of love comes from experiences of it combined with scripture and Church teachings-as well as historical figures mainly who’ve confirmed my experiences with their own. But, sorry, can’t document any of that stuff. I wish I could.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Agreed. It seems reasonable enough to deduce this. Although in all dialogues about the future life, I always try to keep in mind these words “Eye has not seen, nor ear has heard what God has in store for those who love him.”

…

But don’t underestimate the very next verse:

…but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 2:10)

As i mentioned earlier in this dialog, we are on holy ground. The Holy Spirit is with you and i and we may hear Him, if only we will listen. So, take off your slippers, and pray for ears to hear, and i will do the same.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Yes, but if I remember correctly, trust is only part of your definition of faith. …

Not my definition, my friend Ut, but ours. It is the definition of Lady Faith we have together formed, you and i and others. It is the product of our hard labor and answered prayer. If you have some reason to doubt the picture we have painted of her, speak now, or forever hold your peace.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… One trusts in God, and in everything he has revealed about himself. My point is that there are some things that God has revealed that will pass away with time. They do not belong to the eternal heavenly bliss. There are also some things that are currently being fulfilled, and there are some things that he has revealed that remain in the past. …
This makes faith subservient to Love, but it does not do away with faith. …

Would you say that the Father is greater than the Son in nature, or are they both equally God, neither being a greater God than the other?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Here is another thought. All the things we believe through faith are revealed by God and can only be believed if we trust in the one who reveals. This requires a kind of blindness on our parts, since those things which are available to use through the power of our own reason are grasped by sight, in a sense. So reason tells us that 2 +2 is 4, that the sky is blue, and that the ground is solid, etc… We don’t normally say that we take these things on faith. They are self evident.

And I think this is my point about faith. We wont have to trust, simply based on the testimony of others and the testimony miracles, all of which are beyond our power to verify using scientific means. We will see, and in seeing God, all that is proposed to us for belief will be self evident. So it wouldn’t be proper to call it faith.

To put it another way, I believe it was Jesus who said “Blessed are those who believe, and yet have not seen.” This implies that our merit is greater the less our faith is based on miracles, visions, etc… But when we are in heaven with God, we will see him face to face. And so our faith will have no merit in this circumstance.

God bless,
Ut

My son, when he was much younger, asked me why he should learn the multiplication tables. Do you think it was dishonest of me to tell him i had complete faith in the multiplication tables and he should too?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There’re several examples of these so we wouldn’t need to pursue it to too far anyway:
**I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.Phil 3:14
**
It brings up an interesting point, however, because in Catholicism salvation is considered to be a ***gift ***but one not obtained without our cooperation-hence also a prize we must persevere in pursuing.
…

And many thoughtful Protestants would say that eternal life is a gift not earned, but the rewards one has in eternity are not gifts, but rewards. Whether they are deceived or no, i cannot say. This passage seems to support their idea:

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
(1 Corinthians 3)

However, i agree with you that we should resist the temptation to change the subject of our discussion when we seem to be getting so close to the truth.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Yes, practicing Love pleases God. As we grow in it we’re molded or conformed into His likeness.

Agreed. And pleasing God is a noble pursuit, one reason for being, a good part of the meaning of life. I suppose it is possible to be loved by God without pleasing Him, but the result is something i personally dread. When i think of the words of Christ

" ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ "
(Matthew 25)

i’m reminded how the desire of my heart is to make Jesus proud so that i might hear such words when i finally see Him face to face. His love for me is something in which i have complete trust. It is a matter of faith. Reason and evidence tells me this. His being pleased with me is something for which i can only hope. It is a longing, a great desire, but an uncertain one. It drives me to forums like this, hoping that somehow He will use it in a way pleasing to Him.

But enough of my yawn-inspiring faith and hope. On to the next question:

Since pleasing God is perhaps one of the most important goals of the Christian life, what does this passage tell you?

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
(Hebrews 11)

 

[utunumsint]

But don’t underestimate the very next verse:

…but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 2:10)

As i mentioned earlier in this dialog, we are on holy ground. The Holy Spirit is with you and i and we may hear Him, if only we will listen. So, take off your slippers, and pray for ears to hear, and i will do the same.

I accept the definitions we’ve created together, but if there is any fault in the definition, I submit to the judgement of mother church in such matters. Of course, she’s not around right now so…

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

Not my definition, my friend Ut, but ours. It is the definition of Lady Faith we have together formed, you and i and others. It is the product of our hard labor and answered prayer. If you have some reason to doubt the picture we have painted of her, speak now, or forever hold your peace.

I have no reason to doubt the picture. But you suggest that faith survives into eternity because trust remains. My answer to this is that trust is only part of your (our) description of faith. So that trust remains is not sufficient. I suppose I should ask you what parts of the intellection doctrines of our faith remain?

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

Would you say that the Father is greater than the Son in nature, or are they both equally God, neither being a greater God than the other?

No. They both have the same nature. Although the son also has a human nature (the hypostatic union.) What bearing does this have on our discussion of faith?

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

My son, when he was much younger, asked me why he should learn the multiplication tables. Do you think it was dishonest of me to tell him i had complete faith in the multiplication tables and he should too?

Incorrect use of the word Faith maybe. Not dishonest. Although, I was always more a follower of Aristotle than Plato.

Or maybe I’m more of a follower of Thrasymachus come late to the party.

God bless,
Ut

 

[davidv]

{snip}

But enough of my yawn-inspiring faith and hope. On to the next question:

Since pleasing God is perhaps one of the most important goals of the Christian life, what does this passage tell you?

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.(Hebrews 11)

What this passage tells me in ralation to the topic is that without faith one would not even bother to find out what would be pleasing to God. Without faith a person could conclude that God does not exist, or is some distant being not worth knowing.

Until one knows something of God, there can be no motivitation to determine and do that which is pleasing to Him.

 

[Hamlet123]

This makes faith subservient to Love, but it does not do away with faith…

Here is another thought. All the things we believe through faith are revealed by God and can only be believed if we trust in the one who reveals. This requires a kind of blindness on our parts, since those things which are available to use through the power of our own reason are grasped by sight, in a sense. So reason tells us that 2 +2 is 4, that the sky is blue, and that the ground is solid, etc… We don’t normally say that we take these things on faith. They are self evident.

And I think this is my point about faith. We wont have to trust, simply based on the testimony of others and the testimony miracles, all of which are beyond our power to verify using scientific means. We will see, and in seeing God, all that is proposed to us for belief will be self evident. So it wouldn’t be proper to call it faith.

To put it another way, I believe it was Jesus who said “Blessed are those who believe, and yet have not seen.” This implies that our merit is greater the less our faith is based on miracles, visions, etc… But when we are in heaven with God, we will see him face to face. And so our faith will have no merit in this circumstance.

God bless,
Ut

Ut,

Can you give me some clarification? Am I to understand that 2+2 “is grasped by sight, by my senses? It is obvious, to me, “the sky is blue” by my empirical since of sight, that “the ground is solid” by my empirical since of touch.

Now, is my path of understanding 2+2 something (all together) different than my method of deducing “the ground is hard”? Would anyone venture to say it is a concept inside of me – the concept of 2+2? Is it intuited? Is it something that is just there? Is it like justice, beauty, the good, right, wrong, something, one, true? And if these are understood only by intuition (having been given to us, inside of us), can it be they can not be defined? And they can only be: 1. differentiated from other concepts, words and situations and 2. be expressed by some of their categories; we can understand them only in part. Do you think it is NOT possible to understand their substance, but to only understand some parts of them: quantity, quality, relation, place, time, posture etc.?

“For now we see in part, but……”

This leads me to the purpose of this blog and another question: Isn’t Faith, Hope and Love to be included in these transcendentals? And is this discussion treading on unsound ground by assuming that we can define Faith, Hope and Love; when in fact, we can only differentiate them and give some (and only some) of their categories?

I hope no one has inferred that I think that this discussion is “on unsound grounds.” I want to be clear, my proposition is: is our conclusion of providing a definition beyond our ability. It is good to study, to pursue these special gifts given (as I assume) from God. As Augustine said,” When one is in love he pursues the things of the beloved”. I would have never in a hundred years wanted to discuss Hope until I found the One who created it and manages it. I am enthralled with this discussion and Socrates’ facilitation and control of it – Let it continue!

I would be so blessed to hear from others regarding the above; your opinions? Last night in RCIA a leader said,” Love is simply giving. It is the significance of Man. It is not a feeling. It often gives feelings.”

Waiting.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I have no reason to doubt the picture. But you suggest that faith survives into eternity because trust remains. My answer to this is that trust is only part of your (our) description of faith. So that trust remains is not sufficient. I suppose I should ask you what parts of the intellection doctrines of our faith remain?

God bless,
Ut

But i do have reason to doubt, Ut. For i believe my prayer for wisdom has been answered (though whether it has been answered by God or a demon, i have faith you will let me know). Let’s take another look at the definition:

1b. Faith is a belief and a virtue the God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Faith is not an emotion, rather, it is knowledge that something is true or someone is trustworthy, and can be (though might not always be) certainty and complete trust in that truth or person. Faith is usually a reasoned response to evidence (either observed or communicated) and usually a rational (though sometimes an irrational) belief. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Faith in God. An example of Faith is a Catholic who believes that God is and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. He might have a rational trust that God exists and that He will answer His prayers, though not always the way he expects.

Would you say that Faith is a cause of knowing what is true, or would you say that knowing what is a cause of Faith?

 

[fhansen]

Since pleasing God is perhaps one of the most important goals of the Christian life, what does this passage tell you?

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
(Hebrews 11)

There’s that reward for our efforts concept again.

Yes, this is my understanding and my experience-that God desires man to believe in Him-He loves it when man does so-knowing this is a crucial step on mans journey home. This faith is also more closely related to the “ability to know and believe” than to trust/confidence although it still probably implies both.

As an aside I took SisterGs advice and read Spe Salvi again-kind of dumb to leave out the Bosses’ (name removed by moderator)ut after so recent an encyclical on this very topic-and he commented that faith and hope are often used interchangeably in the bible/early Church-they’re very much related in any case.

Another interesting thought in Spe Salvi was introduced in a story he told about a young girl raised as a slave in a place where she had no knowledge of God-and no hope as a result-and whose life changed dramatically even as her immediate environment didn’t change much when she learned of this great hope. The message was that we who live in worlds where suffering is minimized and the good news is heard from early in life often take hope for granted-barely recognizing its’ necessity for our own lives. One quote from Spe Salvi runs the risk of our missing its’ profundity for the sound of its’ matter-of-fact truthfulness, but it is profound: “Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.”

This is why God is so pleased with our faith in Him. He knows just how badly we need Him even as we don’t.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What this passage tells me in ralation to the topic is that without faith one would not even bother to find out what would be pleasing to God. Without faith a person could conclude that God does not exist, or is some distant being not worth knowing.

Until one knows something of God, there can be no motivitation to determine and do that which is pleasing to Him.

Would you say then, David, that your Faith and Love or mine are equals relative to their ability to bring pleasure to God?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No. They both have the same nature. Although the son also has a human nature (the hypostatic union.) What bearing does this have on our discussion of faith?

God bless,
Ut

I will explain what bearing this has in a moment, but first, please answer this question: Would you say that the Son of God is subserviant to the Father God in that the Son never fails to obey the Father’s commands?