Hope

[Socrates4Jesus]

There’s that reward for our efforts concept again.

Yes, this is my understanding and my experience-that God desires man to believe in Him-He loves it when man does so-knowing this is a crucial step on mans journey home. This faith is also more closely related to the “ability to know and believe” than to trust/confidence although it still probably implies both.
…

Yes, i believe we are correct about God’s desire for you or i. But i’m unsure what you mean regarding Faith. In what way do you think she is connected to your ability or mine to know and believe, FH?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… As an aside I took SisterGs advice and read Spe Salvi again-kind of dumb to leave out the Bosses’ (name removed by moderator)ut after so recent an encyclical on this very topic-and he commented that faith and hope are often used interchangeably in the bible/early Church-they’re very much related in any case.

…This is why God is so pleased with our faith in Him. He knows just how badly we need Him even as we don’t.

Yes, FH it seems fair to say this brings pleasure to Him!



Regarding Spe Salvi, it sounds as though he was suggesting the doctrine you and i rejected earlier–that is, that Faith and Hope are not separate virtues but different ways of looking at, or perhaps different ways of experiencing or expressing, the same virtue. Are you now of the opinion that Faith and Hope are two sides of the same coin?

 

[fhansen]

Yes, FH it seems fair to say this brings pleasure to Him!



Regarding Spe Salvi, it sounds as though he was suggesting the doctrine you and i rejected earlier–that is, that Faith and Hope are not separate virtues but different ways of looking at, or perhaps different ways of experiencing or expressing, the same virtue. Are you now of the opinion that Faith and Hope are two sides of the same coin?

I don’t know if we should go all the way there yet since there may be value in keeping them separate and I’ll assume the Church has had reason to do so. But who knows?-maybe there is no good reason for separating them. For our purposes now we could probably guardedly combine them and revisit it if the need seems to arise.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, i believe we are correct about God’s desire for you or i. But i’m unsure what you mean regarding Faith. In what way do you think she is connected to your ability or mine to know and believe, FH?

Well, we’ve stated before that knowledge of supernatural truths and the ability to believe in them is the basic purpose of the gift of faith.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
(Hebrews 11)

Belief in Gods existence and of His desire to reward those who seek Him fall into that category.

 

[fhansen]

I would be so blessed to hear from others regarding the above; your opinions? Last night in RCIA a leader said,” Love is simply giving. It is the significance of Man. It is not a feeling. It often gives feelings.”

Waiting.

We must learn about virtues and other concepts but, in the end, these things are actually experiences, if they are real at all–if they are to be more than mere words. So Augustine said, speaking of the matters of faith he writes about:

The words printed here are concepts. You must go through the experiences.

Love is ultimately an experience, as are faith, hope, courage, etc. Like the existence of the Christian God or the fact of the resurrection, they can’t be proven to be true or even exist except that they’re proven to each of us when we actually experience them for ourselves. And they don’t exist in us except that they are given by God.

For example, if at some point in our lives we experience what it means to be willing to lay down our lives to save another, then we come to a definitive knowledge for ourselves that the verse that says, “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” is more than just words.

Our whole journey of faith is a coming to agree with the teachings of the Church as her truths become known and assimilated in us. This is the process of conversion. And many of these truths are simply outside the realm of being provable by rational means alone.

 

[davidv]

Would you say then, David, that your Faith and Love or mine are equals relative to their ability to bring pleasure to God?

No, because I think that love is the perfection of faith (and hope).

 

[davidv]

I will explain what bearing this has in a moment, but first, please answer this question: Would you say that the Son of God is subserviant to the Father God in that the Son never fails to obey the Father’s commands?

I don’t believe there is any subservience in the relationship between the Father and the Son.

Their divine will is held in common.

Jesus’ human will was perfectly joined to the divine will and in a sense became one.

 

[utunumsint]

Can you give me some clarification? Am I to understand that 2+2 “is grasped by sight, by my senses? It is obvious, to me, “the sky is blue” by my empirical since of sight, that “the ground is solid” by my empirical since of touch.

Faith is based on trust in the information revealed by God. It cannot be verified. It can be shown to be internally logical, but because the premises are revealed, we cannot know this knowledge to be true, like we can know that the earth is hard (using our senses) or 2+2=4 (using our reason).

Now, is my path of understanding 2+2 something (all together) different than my method of deducing “the ground is hard”?

We would not know 2+2=4 unless we lived in a world of objects. Even if those objects are ideas attainable only through our reason.

Would anyone venture to say it is a concept inside of me – the concept of 2+2? Is it intuited? Is it something that is just there? Is it like justice, beauty, the good, right, wrong, something, one, true? And if these are understood only by intuition (having been given to us, inside of us), can it be they can not be defined? And they can only be: 1. differentiated from other concepts, words and situations and 2. be expressed by some of their categories; we can understand them only in part. Do you think it is NOT possible to understand their substance, but to only understand some parts of them: quantity, quality, relation, place, time, posture etc.?

“For now we see in part, but……”

I agree with this. But that does not mean we should stop thinking about these things, and pondering their meaning.

This leads me to the purpose of this blog and another question: Isn’t Faith, Hope and Love to be included in these transcendentals? And is this discussion treading on unsound ground by assuming that we can define Faith, Hope and Love; when in fact, we can only differentiate them and give some (and only some) of their categories?

Because we are fallible human beings, this is true for any form of knowledge. However, faith, hope, and love are discussed extensively in the bible and the Catechism, and we can at least use these are a basis for speculation.

I hope no one has inferred that I think that this discussion is “on unsound grounds.” I want to be clear, my proposition is: is our conclusion of providing a definition beyond our ability. It is good to study, to pursue these special gifts given (as I assume) from God. As Augustine said,” When one is in love he pursues the things of the beloved”. I would have never in a hundred years wanted to discuss Hope until I found the One who created it and manages it. I am enthralled with this discussion and Socrates’ facilitation and control of it – Let it continue!

We are fallible. Agreed. Let humility be our guide, and let us always approach these truths with the thought that our understanding may be wrong, or we might be deceived.

I would be so blessed to hear from others regarding the above; your opinions? Last night in RCIA a leader said,” Love is simply giving. It is the significance of Man. It is not a feeling. It often gives feelings.”

Waiting.

Agape.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus
I will explain what bearing this has in a moment, but first, please answer this question: Would you say that the Son of God is subserviant to the Father God in that the Son never fails to obey the Father’s commands?

I don’t believe there is any subservience in the relationship between the Father and the Son.

Their divine will is held in common.

Jesus’ human will was perfectly joined to the divine will and in a sense became one.

I agree with Davidv.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

But i do have reason to doubt, Ut. For i believe my prayer for wisdom has been answered (though whether it has been answered by God or a demon, i have faith you will let me know). Let’s take another look at the definition:

1b. Faith is a belief and a virtue the God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Faith is not an emotion, rather, it is knowledge that something is true or someone is trustworthy, and can be (though might not always be) certainty and complete trust in that truth or person. Faith is usually a reasoned response to evidence (either observed or communicated) and usually a rational (though sometimes an irrational) belief. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Faith in God. An example of Faith is a Catholic who believes that God is and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. He might have a rational trust that God exists and that He will answer His prayers, though not always the way he expects.

Would you say that Faith is a cause of knowing what is true, or would you say that knowing what is a cause of Faith?

Do you mean “knowing what is true is a cause of Faith?”

Faith is always a gift from God. Its inner motivation is a mystery of grace.

That said, I think I can say with Anselm that faith seeks understanding. But faith often comes first. The motivations for faith are mysterious. Sometimes they are intensely personal, based on visions, or alocutions, or internal revelations. Sometimes these personal experiences happen despite everything that we think reason is telling us.

For other people, like Augustine, faith comes after a long process of reasoning, and thinking about truth. However, even Augustine found that this was not enough. There was a moment of conversion for him that was not rational "Take it and read, take it and read " (tole lege, tole lege). He then went to his home and picked up the Bible to a passage from St. Paul that broke down the last barriers to his conversion. This was grace moving him. The reasoning was only one long preparation for that moment.

But based on that infusion of grace, he went and sought out baptism from Ambrose of Milan. This moment of grace lead him to an act in conformity with his faith. In obedience with his faith.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I believe that truth in terms of our human capacity to reason can be a preparation for faith, but faith itself is a gift of grace. Once faith is received, one becomes open to the logic of revelation because one now trust the giver of that revelation (faith seeking understanding). And one obeys it (the obedience of faith + faith without works is dead).

The distinction has to be made between what is humanly knowable, and what is open only to those who have eyes to see through faith.

Hope this answers your question.
God bless,
Ut

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t know if we should go all the way there yet since there may be value in keeping them separate and I’ll assume the Church has had reason to do so. But who knows?-maybe there is no good reason for separating them. For our purposes now we could probably guardedly combine them and revisit it if the need seems to arise.

Sounds wise to me, FH. However, i can see how one might come to the conclusion that Hope and Faith are one and the same. Hope, as we reasoned earlier, exists only in our emotions. Faith exists in our rational thoughts. If Belief is a better name for this virtue you and i seek to understand, then Hope might be the feeling of Belief while Faith might be the reasoning of belief.

Still, i’m also content to consider them two ladies, at least until some evidence proves otherwise.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, we’ve stated before that knowledge of supernatural truths and the ability to believe in them is the basic purpose of the gift of faith.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
(Hebrews 11)

Belief in Gods existence and of His desire to reward those who seek Him fall into that category.

I agree that it is by Faith that we come to believe and even rationally trust the truth, but is it really by Faith that we grasp the truth? Isn’t the truth that truth is obtained by some other virtue?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No, because I think that love is the perfection of faith (and hope).

What do you mean?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t believe there is any subservience in the relationship between the Father and the Son.

Their divine will is held in common.

Jesus’ human will was perfectly joined to the divine will and in a sense became one.

Maybe it will help me explain what i mean by way of an example: Let’s consider a slave and a master, or to put it in modern terms a boss and an employee, or perhaps a five-star general and a private first class. Now, the master, the slave, the boss, the employee, the military general and the soldier of the rank of private are all equal in nature. They are all human beings. On this i’m sure we agree.

But please answer this question, David: Would you say that these statements are true or false?

• the slave is equal to the master in authority* the employee is equal to the boss in authority* the buck private is equal to the five star general in authority

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I agree with Davidv.

God bless,
Ut

Then, if you please, answer the same question: Would you say that these statements are true or false?

• the slave is equal to the master in authority
• the employee is equal to the boss in authority
• the buck private is equal to the five star general in authority

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Do you mean “knowing what is true is a cause of Faith?”

Yes, that is what i’m asking.

… Anyway, to make a long story short, I believe that truth in terms of our human capacity to reason can be a preparation for faith, but faith itself is a gift of grace. Once faith is received, one becomes open to the logic of revelation because one now trust the giver of that revelation (faith seeking understanding). And one obeys it (the obedience of faith + faith without works is dead).

The distinction has to be made between what is humanly knowable, and what is open only to those who have eyes to see through faith.

Hope this answers your question.
God bless,
Ut

Yes, i think you have answered my question, Ut, but let me be sure. I think you are saying that the obtaining of truth is indeed a cause (though not the only cause) of Faith.

That leaves one more question for me to ask and then i hope the relevance of these questions will become evident: Would you say that a cause is the same thing as that which the cause causes? Or do you think that an effect is actually the same thing as its cause?

 

[davidv]

Maybe it will help me explain what i mean by way of an example: Let’s consider a slave and a master, or to put it in modern terms a boss and an employee, or perhaps a five-star general and a private first class. Now, the master, the slave, the boss, the employee, the military general and the soldier of the rank of private are all equal in nature. They are all human beings. On this i’m sure we agree.

But please answer this question, David: Would you say that these statements are true or false?

• the slave is equal to the master in authority
• the employee is equal to the boss in authority
• the buck private is equal to the five star general in authority

All three are false. However, none of them serve as an meaningful metaphor of the relationship between the Son and the Father, as they misrepresent their relative authority.

 

[fhansen]

I agree that it is by Faith that we come to believe and even rationally trust the truth, but is it really by Faith that we grasp the truth? Isn’t the truth that truth is obtained by some other virtue?

I’m not really sure. Supernatural truths are by definition above our ability to grasp, if by that we mean to fully comprehend. We’re able to believe in them nonetheless by means of faith, the gift of belief in something not unreasonable but nevertheless unprovable by rational means or empirically, even to ourselves.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The scene opens with the Lady Warrior Love standing before Lady Warrior Hope. The sword she grasps is piercing Hope’s breast to the hilt and protruding from her back. Hope slumps to the stage when Love withdraws the blood-stained blade. She stands looking with compassion on her fallen foe. Socrates quickly enters from stage left and kneels at his beloved’s side.

SOC (placing his hand on Hope’s bleeding heart in a vain attempt to stop the steady flow): Hope! My Hope, i’ve killed you! After failing to fight for you, you have died for me! Oh, God, what have i done?

HOPE (reaching up and gently caressing his bearded cheek): Sweet Socrates, it is a far better thing you did than you have ever done. Now you see me as i am, and you have gained a more beautiful virtue than myself.

SOC (holding the hand that caresses him with his own hand that is now covered with her blood): Dear Hope, i desire none more than you, but now i’ve killed you. I fear i will never look into your beautiful eyes again.

HOPE: No, Socrates, there is always Hope. I shall not die. It is a far better state to which i go than i have ever known. Like you when you follow, i shall be changed as a caterpillar is changed to a butterfly. Together we will be, forever changed, you and me. Socrates?

SOC: Yes, my dearest Hope?

HOPE: Promise me . . . (Not finishing the thought, she breaths her last).

SOC (holds her lifeless hand to his lips and weeps).

Does anyone know the virtue of which Hope speaks when she says, “Now you see me as i am, and you have gained an more beautiful virtue than myself”? Can anyone tell me this other virtue’s name?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m not really sure. Supernatural truths are by definition above our ability to grasp, if by that we mean to fully comprehend. We’re able to believe in them nonetheless by means of faith, the gift of belief in something not unreasonable but nevertheless unprovable by rational means or empirically, even to ourselves.

And what of this ability to receive supernatural truths that by Faith we later believe? Is this not also a virtue and a different beauty? Please tell me, if God reveals it to you, what is her name?