Hope

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Anyway, all this to say that I don’t think there is a necessary corelation between reason and faith, such as in cause and effect.

Does this make sense?

God bless,
Ut

I apprehend what you are saying, Ut but do not comprehend why it is true. Perhaps if you gave me an example i might gain the wisdom you possess that i do not.

Please name one thing that you believe by faith but not by reason. In other words, is there any belief you have for which you have no good rational reason to believe it?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Human wisdom would be inadequate to bring one to all the truths proposed by Christianity but, as Sister G said, the supernatural gift of wisdom is oriented towards that purpose. In any case the criteria would simply be that wisdom must lead one to those very truths if it’s to fulfill your claim for it, and that might be workable as long as grace isn’t excluded as a necessary ingredient.

Apparently Aquinas linked wisdom with love. What amazes me about this is that I’ve often said that two things lacking in Adam & Eve contributed to the fall-the wisdom to obey God and the love for God that He deserved-but I never linked the two directly together. I don’t know if that’s a profound thought or not-or just plain wrong- but I do believe that this life is for the purpose of gaining the wisdom that Adam & Eve lacked in order to make the right choice that they didn’t.

And that right choice is to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and so never desire to disobey Him-having learned of the perfection of His wisdom. It might be said that our goal is to gain the wisdom to recognize the superiority of His wisdom over ours-and to gain the wisdom to value Love as it deserves to be valued.

**“This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections.” **
Saint Augustine

I should read more Augustine. The thoughts of Aquinas, i fear, are beyond my ability to comprehend.

Now, i wonder whether you or i are misunderstanding Wisdom. If i were to say, and correctly so from what i’ve observed by reading your replies, that you FH are wise, i think would be drawing this conclusion: I would be describing your possession of truth, not your potential to possess it. If i were describing only your ability to grasp truth that you do not have, i would say that you have the potential to become wise rather than saying you are wise.

It seems to me, then that Wisdom is the possession of truth, not merely the potential for it. Likewise, Love is the possession of compassion for God (among other good things), not just the potential for such adoration.

Does this sound wise to you?

 

[fhansen]

I should read more Augustine. The thoughts of Aquinas, i fear, are beyond my ability to comprehend.

Now, i wonder whether you or i are misunderstanding Wisdom. If i were to say, and correctly so from what i’ve observed by reading your replies, that you FH are wise, i think would be drawing this conclusion: I would be describing your possession of truth, not your potential to possess it. If i were describing only your ability to grasp truth that you do not have, i would say that you have the potential to become wise rather than saying you are wise.

It seems to me, then that Wisdom is the possession of truth, not merely the potential for it. Likewise, Love is the possession of compassion for God (among other good things), not just the potential for such adoration.

Does this sound wise to you?

Yes, this makes sense I think-except for the part about *my *wisdom-it’s still in the potential stage. But then this would mean that wisdom is not so much “the virtue by which we discover truth” as it is the possession of it?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, this makes sense I think-except for the part about *my *wisdom-it’s still in the potential stage. But then this would mean that wisdom is not so much “the virtue by which we discover truth” as it is the possession of it?

Sounds wise to me! Very well then, we shall call Wisdom the possession of truth, recognizing that some are more wise than others (and have greater possession of her than others), but none are so wise as Jesus. Even Socrates said the word was to lofty to be applied to himself and should be reserved for God alone.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hope has fallen, but perhaps Faith will still win the day. Moreover, i think we would do Wisdom an injustice if we failed to allow her to join the fray. I need to remind myself of our understanding of the combatants before the next round begins.

1c. Faith is a belief and a virtue the God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Faith is not an emotion, rather, it is a usually rational belief that some idea is true or someone is trustworthy, and can be (though might not always be) certainty and complete trust in that truth or person. Faith is often a reasoned response to evidence (either observed or communicated by others or God) though it might sometimes be an irrational belief. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Faith in God. An example of Faith is a Catholic who believes that God is and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. He might have a rational trust that God exists and that He will answer his prayers, though not always the way he expects.2c. Hope was an emotion and a virtue that God helped to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Hope was not rational thought, rather, it was a pleasurable feeling of expectation that some future good would result. Hope was sometimes a non-rational (though not always an irrational) conviction of certainty and even trust in some expected future event or in someone. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Hope in God. An example of Hope is a Catholic who prays that God will heal her sick daughter and ends her prayer with the words, “Not my will but Thy will be done.” She might have a hopeful trust that God answers prayer and a hopeful expectation (though not a certain one) that God will indeed heal her child.3c. Love is an emotion, and a decision to act, and a virtue that God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Love is non-rational, insofar as it is a feeling of compassion toward another. Love is rational, insofar as it is a reasoned determination to act in the best interest of another. Love feels kindness toward, and decides to do what is best for, others regardless of their love or hatred for the one loving them. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of Love for others and especially for God. An example of Love is a Catholic who prays for those who persecute her and does good to those who spitefully use her. She might love them despite their hatred for her, being motivated by her love for Jesus, who first loved, and continues to love, her.5a. Wisdom is a rational understanding of what is true and false, and is virtue that God helps to create in the soul or mind of a Catholic or other Christian. Wisdom is not an emotion, rather it is reason, insofar as it is a acquired by rational thought. Wisdom is also revelation, insofar as it is communicated to the one who receives it either by God or by someone through whom God chooses to communicate. The desire of a Catholic or other Christian should be to become habitual in her practice of becoming wise. An example of Wisdom is a Catholic who frequently has her prayers answered because she understands what it is that God desires for her and so knows exactly what to ask of Him. She does not necessarily receive that for which she asks because she deserves it, rather, she has her prayers answer because she has Wisdom to know exactly what God wants for her.
As before, please let me know how these definitions should be changed, or whether i have forgotten to address any suggested modifications.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I suppose next we should try to make a final determine whether Faith or Love is the greater virtue.

http://www.subtraction.com/pics/0310/031022_lucy_liu.jpg

Faith

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/031009/152534__kbbop_l.jpg

Love

 

[utunumsint]

I apprehend what you are saying, Ut but do not comprehend why it is true. Perhaps if you gave me an example i might gain the wisdom you possess that i do not.

Please name one thing that you believe by faith but not by reason. In other words, is there any belief you have for which you have no good rational reason to believe it?

The Trinity. This article of faith lies beyond all created reason and is accessible only to grace.

I think what distinguishes this from other humanly accessible forms of knowledge is the fact that through faith, God dwells within us. “Christ dwells in your hearts by faith.” (Gal 3:11).

This means faith is more than just something you acquire through study and reading the Bible. It is participation in the very inner life of God. It is purely supernatural.

God bless,
Ut

 

[utunumsint]

This is the difference between Christianity and Platonism. Platonists think you can participate with the divine through reason, but Christians admit only one mediator between God and man, Christ. Reason cannot know the formal motive for faith, hope and charity, which is God himself.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The Trinity. This article of faith lies beyond all created reason and is accessible only to grace.

I think what distinguishes this from other humanly accessible forms of knowledge is the fact that through faith, God dwells within us. “Christ dwells in your hearts by faith.” (Gal 3:11).

This means faith is more than just something you acquire through study and reading the Bible. It is participation in the very inner life of God. It is purely supernatural.

God bless,
Ut

Are you saying that the idea that there is one God existing in three person is an irrational one?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This is the difference between Christianity and Platonism. Platonists think you can participate with the divine through reason, but Christians admit only one mediator between God and man, Christ. Reason cannot know the formal motive for faith, hope and charity, which is God himself.

God bless,
Ut

I suppose God agrees with the Platonists?

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”

(Isaiah 1)

 

[utunumsint]

I suppose God agrees with the Platonists?

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”

(Isaiah 1)

God is reasoning with human being about their sins. He is not communication the reality of his divine life. Please don’t confuse concept with reality. Reason cannot tell you who I am within my own self. You are barred from that. Even my wife is barred from that. But our hearts are made for God who alone knows us better than we know ouselves.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

God is reasoning with human being about their sins. He is not communication the reality of his divine life. Please don’t confuse concept with reality. Reason cannot tell you who I am within my own self. You are barred from that. Even my wife is barred from that. But our hearts are made for God who alone knows us better than we know ouselves.

God bless,
Ut

What we are talking about is Faith–or how we come to put trust in the truths of who God is, and what He has done, and why He has done it, and what we must do in response. What you appear to be saying to me, Ut is that reason can give me no reason to accept the truth that God is who He is. Is this a fair understanding of the point you are making?

 

[utunumsint]

What we are talking about is how we come to put trust in the truths of who God is, and what He has done, and why He has done it, and what we must do in response. What you appear to be saying to me, Ut is that reason can give me no reason to believe that God is who He is. Is this a fair understanding of the point you are making?

No. I’m not saying that. Reason can prepare one for the grace of faith hope and love. But I also am saying that it is not the cause of these graces. God alone is the cause.

If you believe that reason is the cause of the graces of faith hope and charity, then you are saying that these virtues are natural. I reject this. Is this what you are saying? If yes, then the natural faith of the muslim, hindu, etc… Is no different from our own Christian faith.

God bless,
Ut

P.S. To be honest, this point I am arguing is an open question in Catholic theology. Proponent for what I take to be your side of the question csn be found with Karl Rhaner, among other. I believe I am more inline with theologians like Thomas Aquinas and strict Thomistic like Fr. Garrigou-Legrange and Von Balthassar.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No. I’m not saying that. Reason can prepare one for the grace of faith hope and love. But I also am saying that it is not the cause of these graces. God alone is the cause.

If you believe that reason is the cause of the graces of faith hope and charity, then you are saying that these virtues are natural. I reject this. Is this what you are saying? If yes, then the natural faith of the muslim, hindu, etc… Is no different from our own Christian faith.

God bless,
Ut

Thank you. I think i understand. I’m not sure what idea i trust, i’m only trying them on one at a time to see which ones fit the truth reasonably. Rather than saying reason is a cause of Faith, i’m currently thinking that reason is one of several attributes of Faith. Does this idea sound reasonable to you?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I suppose that if it is indeed true that God is the cause of our Faith, and if it also is true that reason is one of the attributes of Faith, then the conclusion you or i would draw from this is that God is the cause of our reason.



This was in fact the conclusion to which Socrates himself came.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

BINGO!!! You get the prize Socrates! This is why wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit - so that we can recognize God who is Truth!

Thinking about what you said, Sister it occurs to me the relationship that the One who is the Truth has to our four virtues:

• Wisdom is the ability to recognize the Truth
• Faith is the ability to trust the Truth
• Hope is the ability to be motivated by the Truth
• Love is the ability to obey the Truth
  Pretty cool, huh? I’m glad the Truth thought of it.

 

[Sister_G]

Very cool, Socrates! And He said, “The greatest of these is Love.”
It binds the rest together, uniting them like the bond of Love between the Father and the Son, Who is the Holy Spirit.

 

[fhansen]

Are you saying that the idea that there is one God existing in three person is an irrational one?

Reason alone could not arrive at a triune God.

I suppose next we should try to make a final determine whether Faith or Love is the greater virtue.

I think this is a good idea, as we’ve strayed here and there. If anyone wants to pit Wisdom or another virtue against Love at some point that’s fine but IMHO I think we should try to finish with the other virtues first.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Very cool, Socrates! And He said, “The greatest of these is Love.”
It binds the rest together, uniting them like the bond of Love between the Father and the Son, Who is the Holy Spirit.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,** but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13)

Notice the last verse, Sister. If i was superstitious i’d say the 13th verse of the 13th chapter would be bad luck! It is certainly giving me trouble wrapping my mind around all of this, and raising as many questions as answers. For example, St. Paul mentions nothing of Wisdom. Am i to understand, then, that he believes Love is greater than Hope or Faith, but perhaps Wisdom is greater still? Why would he leave so important a virtue out of his treatise on the greatest of virtues?

At any rate, i’ve given up hope for Hope but not for Faith, at least not yet! By trying see whether St. Paul was wrong, perhaps i’ll find out why he was right. I have complete faith that the truth will prevail, for you or i don’t have to defend the truth; the truth defends itself.**

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Reason alone could not arrive at a triune God. …

True, FH. But could revelation alone remain at three persons in one God?



It seems to me that once a person arrives, through revelation, at the idea that God is one What in three Whos, she might not be content to stay there without the help of reason. Being told what the truth is, is not the same knowing why it is true. Why i believe is as important to me as what i believe. Without the why, i live in doubt and fear that what i believe might be a lie. And doubt, as we have already agreed, is the opposite of faith. To understand the why, i need reason. I need to ask questions of God and others, difficult questions like the ones i’ve been asking. Without answers to those questions, i have only revelation without assurance that it should be trusted.