Hope

[Socrates4Jesus]

Love exists eternally. Love was rejected by man when man rejected God as his God, man preferring himself over Love, in a sense, man thinking he can find his happiness elsewhere. Love is still supreme but it’s a lost virtue for us-one we don’t recognize the loss of until God opens our eyes Then He begins to help with various gifts of grace. But love was never meant to be lost-this is against the will of God, as it should be. When man lost Love, he lost God and vice versa. Pope Benedict from Spe Salvi again. I love this line:
**“Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.”
**

God’s Wisdom exists eternally.

"The LORD brought me [Wisdom] forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

I [Wisdom] was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began."

(Proverbs 8)

God’s Wisdom was rejected by man … who thought he could find Wisdom elsewhere.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ "

“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

(Genesis 3)

God’s Wisdom is still supreme, but it’s a lost virtue for us. We don’t recognize the loss of it until God opens our eyes.

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth [Wisdom], and the truth [Wisdom] will set you free.”

(John 8)

**But Wisdom was never meant to be lost–this is against the will of God, as it should be. When man lost Wisdom, he lost God and vice versa. **

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth [Wisdom] and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

(John 14)

Questions

Do you think, FH that if we say sin resulted in the loss of God’s Love, we are only telling half of the story? The Sacred Scripture appears to indicate we also lost His Wisdom by trading it for another wisdom.

Do you think, FH that if we say Love is supreme we are only telling half of the story? It seems to me Wisdom perfects Love.

Do you think, FH that if we say Love was never meant to be lost and that when we lost Her we lost God because God is Love, we are only telling half of the story? For God is also Wisdom, and when we lost His Wisdom, we lost Him.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Amen, FHansen! Let us kee the Holy Cycle, eh, Socrates?

Yes, Sister! Let us pray His Wisdom will develop His Love in our souls to the point where Fear is no more.



If any of you lacks wisdom, she should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to her.

(James 1:5)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Is Wisdom the perfecter of Love?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

In my mind the discovery that Wisdom is a cause of Love is proof enough that the former is greater than the latter.

However, if you FH, or you Sister, or you Hamlet, or you David are still unconvinced, then perhaps you will be more inclined to see the wisdom of Wisdom’s supremacy if she were to show us that she is the perfecter of Love.

If you are willing to listen, i’d like to provide an example of how Wisdom perfects Love. Then you may be the judge of whether it is true.

 

[fhansen]

Is Wisdom the perfecter of Love?

http://www.pinsnmore.com/media/QuestionMark.gif

Of course I think we’d agree that *God *is the perfecter of our love. And this is actually solid Catholic theology, that His grace accomplishing this perfection in us is our justification. If you’re asking if wisdom is the main or only avenue He uses to achieve that perfection, I don’t know-it certainly is important. If you’re asking what virtue is the most important in general, I’m not sure if we have the right to rank them but I’d still go with the object of wisdom, which is love.
No matter how we slice it, we can’t get away from the fact that love is Gods’ goal for us-it’s His greatest commandment -and its’ purpose is our own happiness. In the end, God won’t judge us by how wise we were but rather how well have we loved. But He certainly expects us to be wise enough to choose love so??? Let’s hear more of your defense of Wisdom.

 

[Sister_G]

Carry on, Socrates. I am all ears.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Of course I think we’d agree that *God *is the perfecter of our love. And this is actually solid Catholic theology, that His grace accomplishing this perfection in us is our justification. If you’re asking if wisdom is the main or only avenue He uses to achieve that perfection, I don’t know-it certainly is important. If you’re asking what virtue is the most important in general, I’m not sure if we have the right to rank them but I’d still go with the object of wisdom, which is love.
No matter how we slice it, we can’t get away from the fact that love is Gods’ goal for us-it’s His greatest commandment -and its’ purpose is our own happiness. In the end, God won’t judge us by how wise we were but rather how well have we loved. But He certainly expects us to be wise enough to choose love so??? Let’s hear more of your defense of Wisdom.

Are you FH so sure God won’t judge us by how wise we are? What if how wise we are determines how well we love? Before you answer, please consider the example in my reply to Sister.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Carry on, Socrates. I am all ears.

Thank you, Sister! And i sincerely hope you don’t misunderstand me. My goal is not to convince you of some truth you don’t have. I’m not into partisan religion. My goal is the same as Socrates, who said

Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is merely this—that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.

(Phaedo)

Convincing myself is what i’m all about at the moment, so if i say anything that rings untrue, please tell me rather than allow me to walk away deceived.

 

[Sister_G]

Agreed.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Here is the illustration that to me appears to demonstrate how Wisdom perfects Love. I got the idea from you, Sister, when you asked if i’d ever met a child with Down Syndrome and i said that i knew more than one adult who had the developmental disability.

Let’s say you visit a friend you had not seen for some time. She confides in you that she is three months pregnant. You are glad for her until she says she talked with her doctor. She explains that the doctor told her that the baby had Down Syndrome and she has decided to terminate the pregnancy.

As gently as you can you urge her to reconsider committing the sin of abortion, and tell her that in time she will love the baby. She becomes hurt, and cries, and gets angry at you, and tells you she DOES love the baby. Ending its suffering now, before it is born, is the most loving thing she can do, she says. That’s what her doctor and friends told her. “They understand and care about me,” she adds. “Why don’t you?”

Now, let’s say she is being completely sincere when she says her decision to abort the infant is an act of kindness. In this case, you could NOT say that she is unloving for deciding to commit what she believes is a mercy killing. You could only say that she is unwise. It is not for lack of love that she is going to murder the child, rather it’s for lack of understanding about what is right and what is wrong.

She has love for the baby, but is a misguided and imperfect love. To perfect her love so that she makes the right decision to not end the innocent, unborn child’s life, she needs a virtue that will perfect her love. She needs wisdom.

This is just one of many examples you or i might imagine to demonstrate that Wisdom indeed perfects Love.

 

[Sister_G]

Well, said Socrates! Point taken. In fact, there is an intimate link between the two - one which I was not trying to refute, but now I understand, at least in part, what you are aiming at here.

She is indeed ignorant to a reality and through false inforamtion, which was presented in a plausable manner, she makes a decision to end the life of her unborn child thinking it to be a ggod thing. Therefore, as the one who truly loves her and is willing to sacrifice for her, by the way did you see the movie “Bella”? it gives a wonderful example of a friend who does just this. Convincing the woman to go forward with the pregnancy the friend adopts the child - it is a gripping story!

Our job then as “neighbor” or friend, would be to help all, or as many as God allows, to truly understand and to know the Good God so that in fact they can make good decisions in their lives, decisions that reflect wisdom - perfect love of God and neighbor.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Well, said Socrates! Point taken. In fact, there is an intimate link between the two - one which I was not trying to refute, but now I understand, at least in part, what you are aiming at here.

She is indeed ignorant to a reality and through false inforamtion, which was presented in a plausable manner, she makes a decision to end the life of her unborn child thinking it to be a ggod thing. Therefore, as the one who truly loves her and is willing to sacrifice for her, by the way did you see the movie “Bella”? it gives a wonderful example of a friend who does just this. Convincing the woman to go forward with the pregnancy the friend adopts the child - it is a gripping story!

Our job then as “neighbor” or friend, would be to help all, or as many as God allows, to truly understand and to know the Good God so that in fact they can make good decisions in their lives, decisions that reflect wisdom - perfect love of God and neighbor.

No i have not seen the movie, but perhaps i’ll be able to get it from Netflix.



True, what you said about Wisdom and Love being intimate. I think that perhaps they are so intimate because they are the two virtues of God Himself. As St. Paul wrote:

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

(Ephesians 5)

And if you or i are to imitate Him as best that the Holy Spirit empowers us, we need to imitate Him in both Wisdom and Love.

I think we tend to notice Love more than Wisdom, since an act of Love so powerfully demonstrates the reality of God working in the life of a powerless one. Yet, the truth i think is that for every act of Love to which we sit up and take notice, there is an causal act of Wisdom that produced it.

 

[fhansen]

Are you FH so sure God won’t judge us by how wise we are? What if how wise we are determines how well we love? Before you answer, please consider the example in my reply to Sister.

Maybe there’s a mutual perfection going on here-Love also perfecting Wisdom. Because one person could think it’s wise to abort the baby in your post #567 -I can’t believe we’ve gone so far with this thread but I’m glad we did-while another wouldn’t. The difference would be the difference spoken of earlier-the difference between human wisdom and that given by God.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

And what you say about the intimacy of Wisdom and Love is also true for this reason: It is impossible to be wise and fail to love. After all, the Wisdom God gives tells you or i how to love, and to not act according to that truth is unwise. Just as Faith without deeds is dead, so too Wisdom without deeds is not Wisdom.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Maybe there’s a mutual perfection going on here-Love also perfecting Wisdom. Because one person could think it’s wise to abort the baby in your post #567 -I can’t believe we’ve gone so far with this thread but I’m glad we did-while another wouldn’t. The difference would be the difference spoken of earlier-the difference between human wisdom and that given by God.

Perhaps, but Wisdom does NOT appear to me to suffer the same defect as Love. Please tell me if you agree:

When it comes to Love, a person might love imperfectly without Wisdom. However, one cannot be wise imperfectly without Love. When making a moral decision, the decision is either wise or unwise, but never in an imperfect state between the two.

In the case of the woman who aborts her child, we might say she loves, but does so imperfectly. She has the right motives, but is taking the wrong action. However, we would be wrong to say she is wise, but imperfectly so. It is either wise or unwise to abort the unborn child. Unlike Love, which can be an imperfect act, there is no such thing as an imperfectly wise action. When it comes to being wise, an action either is or it isn’t.

Love, therefore, does NOT perfect Wisdom. Only truth and God can do that. Love, however, can be perfected by Wisdom (which is understanding what is the truth) as well as by God. In fact, it might be correct to say that Wisdom (both rational and supernaturally revealed) is a means by which God perfects my Love and yours.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Gotta help my wife and son. I’ll check back later.

 

[fhansen]

Perhaps, but Wisdom does NOT appear to me to suffer the same defect as Love. Please tell me if you agree. When it comes to Love, a person might love imperfectly without Wisdom. However, one cannot be wise imperfectly without Love. When it comes to a moral decision, a person is either wise or unwise, but never in an imperfect state between the two.

In the case of the woman who aborts her child, we might say she has love, but an imperfect love. She has the right motives, but is taking the wrong action. However, we would be wrong to say she has wisdom, but an imperfect wisdom. It is either wise or unwise to abort the unborn child. Unlike Love, which can be an imperfect act, there is no such thing as an imperfectly wise action.

Love, therefore, does not perfect Wisdom. Only truth and God can do that. Love, however, can be perfected by Wisdom (which is understanding what is the truth) as well as by God.

I’d say that Love must perfect Wisdom. It must under gird her -Love must contribute her part, showing Wisdom her purpose-or else Wisdom may fail to make the right choice-in fact she’ll have nothing worth choosing between. It’s Love that cares enough to place sanctity on life. It’s Love that commands-that orients Wisdom as to the good-that is the good that Wisdom orients herself to. Even if Wisdom were on an equal par-and she may be- nothing can ever be higher than Love.
I won’t be back for several hours but I know you won’t be able to rebut this anyway.
Just kidding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’d say that Love must perfect Wisdom. It must under gird her -Love must contribute her part, showing Wisdom her purpose-or else Wisdom may fail to make the right choice-in fact she’ll have nothing worth choosing between. It’s Love that cares enough to place sanctity on life. It’s Love that commands-that orients Wisdom as to the good-that is the good that Wisdom orients herself to. Even if Wisdom were on an equal par-and she may be- nothing can ever be higher than Love.
I won’t be back for several hours but I know you won’t be able to rebut this anyway.
Just kidding.

No rebuttal. How can i rebut the Truth?



Funny how God chooses to communicate Wisdom in unexpected ways. As i was helping my wife fix dinner, we were listening to the soundtrack from the Broadway play we saw last summer called Wicked.

One of the songs was sung by the lover of the Wicked Witch, and the lyrics include the words, “I don’t see myself as a Solomon or Socrates. I’m just one of your dime-a-dozen mediocraties.”

It reminded me of Solomon, whom the Sacred Scriptures called the wisest man on earth. Yet, unlike Socrates, Solomon unwisely lived for all the pleasures of sin he could get. And being perhaps the wealthiest and most powerful king in Jewish history, he was able to get a lot!

So, Wisdom has proved me wrong, it seems. She does suffer the same defect as Love. Love’s defect is in her actions. Her actions might be sinful even though her intentions are not. Wisdom’s defect is the same. Her actions might be sinful even though her knowledge of right and wrong is not.

Thinking of this as i drove to the food store to pick up some things for my wife, Wisdom whispered that the truth is she and Faith are sisters. Also true is that Love is the sister of Hope. For Faith, like Wisdom, depends on rational thought. And Hope, like Love, depends on emotion. Wisdom acts according to rationally discerned truth. Love acts according to compassion. If either fails to act, she is imperfect and prone to sin.

“What is it then,” i asked, “that causes Wisdom to act, thus perfecting her?”

“Love,” Wisdom answered softly. “Unadulterated, God empowered, Christ-like Love.”

I stand corrected, FH and Sister. Thanks for pointing me to the truth–that being that Wisdom is no greater than Love. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, for how could any one virtue of God be more perfect than the other? Isn’t everything about Him perfect?

Wow. I cannot belive Wisdom just told me that!

 

[Sister_G]

In part I would call this an epiphany moment. A revelation that no virtue of God is greater than any other, yet with Love binding them all together.

I have one thought however regarding Love that was not so much mentioned, and I never see talked about enough, and that is true love is an act of the will. St Maximilian Kolbe speaks of this in depth in his writings and witnessed to it with the final act of his life. He was in Auschwitz in 1941, July to be mosre precise, when a prisioner escaped from his block. The typical punishment if the one who escaped was not found was that 10 men would die in his place in the starvation bunker. As the comandant was chosing the men for this cruel death sentence a man cried out, “No! My wife, my children!” At that moment, Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, OFM Conventual, stepped out of rank, walked up to the comandant and asked to take this man’s place. Just moving from the line could have gotten him shot on the spot, but instead, he was able to make the request and the trade was made. It was an act of the will, a priest who valued family life, willing to give up his life for another. The man for whom he died, Francis Gajowniczek, lived to see the camp liberated, returned to his family and was even at the canonization of St Maximilian on Oct. 10, 1982.

So what I am saying is, for example, as an act of the will, you chose out of LOVE to go to the store for your wife - a wise decision by all accounts, but one based on an act of love.

 

[fhansen]

“Love,” Wisdom answered softly. “Unadulterated, God empowered, Christ-like Love.”

I hafta love this line. Whatever relationship Wisdom & Love may have, and whatever else Love may be, Love is a power, the awesome power that compelled and enabled both Jesus and Fr. Maximilian Kolbe to do what they did.

I don’t know if our reasoning here has been so perfect in its theological soundness but I learned a lot in any case and have enjoyed the discussion a great deal thus far. I’ve also appreciated the open and friendly attitude of all participants. I’m sure at least some others would agree if I added, nice thread, Soc!