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Sister_G said:
Step 1 in learning a bit more on wisdom…please refer to the following link to Sacred Scripture. Read the letter of Saint James, chapter 3, verses 14 and following being sure to take in the foot notes.
usccb.org/nab/bible/james/james3.htm
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Excellent readings. If wisdom doesn’t lead one inexorably to *love *it would have little value. It seems that if, for example, the highest level of wisdom a philosopher thought he had attained was the knowledge that he knew nothing, then this wisdom would be valuable only if there was nothing more to know. But if there were more knowledge to be gained, and his wisdom couldn’t attain it, that wisdom would be lacking. Is wisdom above judgment? How can we judge the wisdom of a particular choice? If anything can set a standard by which to judge her, shouldn’t it be love? Or can she really be counted on to always lead us there?
 
Sister_G said:
Yes, Socrates, you have passed. Now Step 2 is for all of us to refer to the following link in New Advent (CE), in which Aquinas speaks of wisdom as an intellectual virtue. So there you have it! It IS a virtue!
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Yes, Sister. I can see that perhaps Holy Spirit was whispering in your ear, too. Well, done!

👍

And i think it would be unwise to disobey this intellectual virtue. So, when she whispers in my ear these words:

Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
(Galatians 6:6)

I’d be a fool not to obey, and perhaps you, as one of my teachers, would be unwise to not listen to what i have to share with you. Do you agree?
 
However, if you, Sister have a third step to achieving Wisdom, i’d be rude not to listen. And glad to listen i’d be!
 
fhansen said:
Excellent readings. If wisdom doesn’t lead one inexorably to love it would have little value. It seems that if, for example, the highest level of wisdom a philosopher thought he had attained was the knowledge that he knew nothing, then this wisdom would be valuable only if there was nothing more to know. But if there were more knowledge to be gained, and his wisdom couldn’t attain it, that wisdom would be lacking. Is wisdom above judgment? How can we judge the wisdom of a particular choice? If anything can set a standard by which to judge her, shouldn’t it be love? Or can she really be counted on to always lead us there?
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Good point! What you FH say certainly pertains to some kinds of wisdom, but does it pertain to the greatest kind of Wisdom?

My eldest son, for example, is extremely wise when it comes to playing the guitar. However, when it comes to Spiritual matters, he might be said to be unwise.

You asked, “Is Wisdom above judgment?” The response that comes to mind is, “Is good moral judgment possible without Wisdom?”

You asked, “If anything can set a standard by which to judge her, should it be love?” The response that comes to mind is, “Is not Truth the standard by which we judge Wisdom? Is not Truth the same standard by which we also judge Love?”
 
FH and Sister:

The point you both appear to be making is that Love is a cause of Wisdom. If you don’t mind my asking, am i understanding you both correctly?
 
In other words, you FH, or you Sister, or i must first obtain some level of the virtue of Love before we can even think of becoming wise in the things of God. First comes Love, then comes Wisdom. As the former proceeds the latter, so the latter is caused by the former. For an effect always proceeds its cause.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
FH and Sister:

The point you both appear to be making is that Love is a cause of Wisdom. If you don’t mind my asking, am i understanding you both correctly?
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Yes, because God is the cause or source of our wisdom-and only He can grant the wisdom that leads us back to Him.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Good point! What you FH say certainly pertains to some kinds of wisdom, but does it pertain to the greatest kind of Wisdom?

My eldest son, for example, is extremely wise when it comes to playing the guitar. However, when it comes to Spiritual matters, he might be said to be unwise.

You asked, “Is Wisdom above judgment?” The response that comes to mind is, “Is good moral judgment possible without Wisdom?”

You asked, “If anything can set a standard by which to judge her, should it be love?” The response that comes to mind is, “Is not Truth the standard by which we judge Wisdom? Is not Truth the same standard by which we also judge Love?”
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But what standard do we use to judge Truth?
 
fhansen said:
Yes, because God is the cause or source of our wisdom-and only He can grant the wisdom that leads us back to Him.
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I see you would agree with the statement that Love is the beginning (or cause) of Wisdom. And since Love is responsible for the creation of true Wisdom, she is greater than the one she creates.

Is this a fair understanding of your belief at the moment?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I see you would agree with the statement that Love is the beginning (or cause) of Wisdom. And since Love is responsible for the creation of true Wisdom, she is greater than the one she creates.

Is this a fair understanding of your belief at the moment?
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Our faith teaches that God is both Love and Truth. And His Wisdom is everlasting so I’m still not sure if the two (Wisdom & Love) are separable. All of either that we possess, however, come from Him and cannot be possessed by us-certainly not with any kind of fullness- without Him.
 
fhansen said:
Our faith teaches that God is both Love and Truth. And His Wisdom is everlasting so I’m still not sure if the two (Wisdom & Love) are separable. All of either that we possess, however, come from Him and cannot be possessed by us-certainly not with any kind of fullness- without Him.
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Yes, and i agree with you, being unable to deny the wisdom of your words.

👍

Now, the task before you and i at the moment is to determine which of these two attributes of God that He so undeservedly gives to us, is the greatest gift from Him.

Sister, at least, has suggested that Love is the greater because Love causes Wisdom in you or i. If she is correct that Love is the beginning of Wisdom in you or i, then i’d be inclined to believer her. Would you?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Yes, and i agree with you, being unable to deny the wisdom of your words.

👍

Now, the task before you and i at the moment is to determine which of these two attributes of God that He so undeservedly gives to us, is the greatest gift from Him.

Sister, at least, has suggested that Love is the greater because Love causes Wisdom in you or i. If she is correct that Love is the beginning of Wisdom in you or i, then i’d be inclined to believer her. Would you?
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Well, if anything I’m certain of this: that I’m uncertain right now that I’m up to making that determination. I’ll add though, that here in this life not everyone has the same opportunity to gain wisdom and I’m sure that Love would be of the disposition, considering her nature and all, of making allowances for that fact or providing aid in the matter…
 
fhansen said:
Well, if anything I’m certain of this: that I’m uncertain right now that I’m up to making that determination. I’ll add though, that here in this life not everyone has the same opportunity to gain wisdom and I’m sure that Love would be of the disposition, considering her nature and all, of making allowances for that fact or providing aid in the matter…
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This is a tough thing to unravel. It is like taking the “Tri” out of Trinity! Let’s take a look at something Saint Patrick said:
“62. But I entreat those who believe in and fear God, whoever deigns to examine or receive this document composed by the obviously unlearned sinner Patrick in Ireland, that nobody shall ever ascribe to my ignorance any trivial thing that I achieved or may have expounded that was pleasing to God, but accept and truly believe that it would have been the gift of God. And this is my confession before I die.” Fear of God is the first stage of …Wisdom! And wisdom seeks its source, the Source of all things, Love!
 
Sister_G said:
This is a tough thing to unravel. It is like taking the “Tri” out of Trinity! Let’s take a look at something Saint Patrick said:
“62. But I entreat those who believe in and fear God, whoever deigns to examine or receive this document composed by the obviously unlearned sinner Patrick in Ireland, that nobody shall ever ascribe to my ignorance any trivial thing that I achieved or may have expounded that was pleasing to God, but accept and truly believe that it would have been the gift of God. And this is my confession before I die.” Fear of God is the first stage of …Wisdom! And wisdom seeks its source, the Source of all things, Love!
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Beautiful! Thank you.

This is what I’ve been thinking: Love might do without wisdom but wisdom would certainly have nothing to aspire to-no purpose at all for her knowledge-if love were gone. For if she’s truly wise Wisdom will know that love is her highest aspiration.
 
Sister_G said:
This is a tough thing to unravel. It is like taking the “Tri” out of Trinity! Let’s take a look at something Saint Patrick said:
“62. But I entreat those who believe in and fear God, whoever deigns to examine or receive this document composed by the obviously unlearned sinner Patrick in Ireland, that nobody shall ever ascribe to my ignorance any trivial thing that I achieved or may have expounded that was pleasing to God, but accept and truly believe that it would have been the gift of God. And this is my confession before I die.” Fear of God is the first stage of …Wisdom! And wisdom seeks its source, the Source of all things, Love!
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And i see Wisdom has been whispering in your ear, too, Sister! For she softly said to me as i was out walking my dog:

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.(Psalm 9)Well then, it is the fear of God that is the beginning of (or that gives birth to) Wisdom in you or i. Is this what you believe, Sister?

And how about you, FH? Do the Sacred Scriptures and the church father speak the truth?
 
Yes, Socrates, this is what I believe. I trust St. Augustine and St. Thomas, and of course, Sacred Scripture. If the Catechism of the Catholic Church refers to these two great saint, why shouldn’t we?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
And how about you, FH? Do the Sacred Scriptures and the church father speak the truth?
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Yes, I believe so.
If I could simply be bathed for eternity in Gods’ love, I don’t know that anything else would be needed. I commented before that the virtues were experiences. Love is an experience. Even God, for us, is ultimately an experience-one we have more knowledge about than experience of now. Love is the experience of God. There may be a lot more to it than that but I know-in part because He granted me this gift once, briefly-that to be in Gods’ presence is to be in the presence of a LOVE totally beyond human understanding-and absolutely and totally gratifying in terms of the peace, joy, and happiness it brings with it. And that is the one thing more than any other, I believe, that will keep us from ever thirsting again or tiring of eternity-from ever again desiring anything “more” than God. It could be said that Wisdom is to Love God.
 
Sister_G said:
Yes, Socrates, this is what I believe. I trust St. Augustine and St. Thomas, and of course, Sacred Scripture. If the Catechism of the Catholic Church refers to these two great saint, why shouldn’t we?
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Sounds wise to me!

👍

It seems then that if this fear of God is itself Love, then there is no doubt that the Sacred Scripture

The **fear **of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.(Psalm 111)might as well be interpreted to mean

The **[love] **of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.(Psalm 111)Does this sound wise to you both?
 
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