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"Wisdom makes you a friend of God? I think I agree, but I am not sure if that is what you are saying, please confirm.

it is tied into seeking Him and knowing Him.

You mean a part of wisdom, a charactoristic of wisdom is seeking God? Yes?"

Yes, seeking God is a part of Wisdom, or a characteristic thereof. If we wish to call anyone friend we must seek them - to know them and to form a bond of love with them - otherwise some necessary elements of friendship are lacking.
 
Sister_G said:
You cannot turn your back on wisdom, as it makes you a friend of God - it is tied into seeking Him and knowing Him. But STILL, this only leads us to Love!
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Don’t worry, sister! I have no intention on abandoning any virtue. My thought was that it would be in pore taste to talk of embracing both lady virtues. (I won’t go there!) Talking of turning my back was a tongue-in-cheek way of describing the challenge before me, which is to determine which of the two is the greatest, fair Faith, or wonderful Wisdom.

What you say, however, brings up a good point. You say the purpose of Wisdom is to lead you or i to Love. Do you also agree with me that Wisdom’s purpose is to command you or i to Love, as well? And do you think, as i do, that Wisdom’s purpose is to not only command us to love but to also teach us how to love?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Don’t worry, sister! I have no intention on abandoning any virtue. My thought was that it would be in pore taste to talk of embracing both lady virtues. (I won’t go there!) Talking of turning my back was a tongue-in-cheek way of describing the challenge before me, which is to determine which of the two is the greatest, fair Faith, or wonderful Wisdom.

What you say, however, brings up a good point. You say the purpose of Wisdom is to lead you or i to Love. Do you also agree with me that Wisdom’s purpose is to command you or i to Love, as well? And do you think, as i do, that Wisdom’s purpose is to not only command us to love but to also teach us how to love?
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From the two quotes from the CCC below, it appears to me that Wisdom is a lady of a different type than Faith, Hope and Love. She is a gift rather than a virtue.
283 The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: "It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me."121
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1831 The seven *gifts *of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David.109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them.
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This last quote reveals to me the relationship between our fair ladies. In a way Wisdom is to Love, like salt is to food, enhancing and perfecting what exists.

P.S. - My thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It have been very informative and insightful to me.
 
davidv said:
Quote:
1831 The seven *gifts *of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David.109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them.

From the two quotes from the CCC below, it appears to me that Wisdom is a lady of a different type than Faith, Hope and Love. She is a gift rather than a virtue.

This last quote reveals to me the relationship between our fair ladies. In a way Wisdom is to Love, like salt is to food, enhancing and perfecting what exists.

P.S. - My thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It have been very informative and insightful to me.
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Is your point, David that a gift of the Spirit cannot possibly be virtue?

🤷
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Is your point, David that a gift of the Spirit cannot possibly be virtue?

🤷
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I wouldn’t go so far as to say “cannot possibly be”. In my thinking, there is quite a distance between virtue, which is, in my mind, the active practicing of a thing to perfect it. As in the CCC
A virtue is an habitual and firm disposition to do the good
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Whereas a gift is often received unmerited, and not usually contingent on any thing I do.
 
davidv said:
I wouldn’t go so far as to say “cannot possibly be”. In my thinking, there is quite a distance between virtue, which is, in my mind, the active practicing of a thing to perfect it. As in the CCC Whereas a gift is often received unmerited, and not usually contingent on any thing I do.
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Are you saying that wisdom does not increase as one actively practices it to perfect it? Are you saying that no one can earn (nor ever deserve) to be called wise?

🤷
 
http://www.johnthebaptistcs.ie/images/question_mark2.gif

This question is for anyone who cares to answer (not just David):

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1833 Virtue is a habitual and firm disposition to do good.
How is true and genuine Wisdom, the kind of Wisdom that God Himself gives, NOT a habitual and firm disposition to do good?

🤷
 
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Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,

for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8)

Besides God, is there anything you or i can desire that compares to the greatest of the virtues?
 
SOCRATES: What are you doing, my lover?

WISDOM (Pulling up Socrates loins and tucking them firmly into his belt): Preparing you for the contest to come.

SOC (embarrassed): What contest do you have in mind? and shouldn’t we wait until we’re alone? Here on the battlefield in front of all these spectators is hardly the . . .

WIS: (Pulls her sword quickly from its sheath and places it firmly in Socrates’ hand). You will be wise to take this, and not drop it.

SOC: (Startled and confuse). You can’t mean that i . . .

WIS: Yes, that’s exactly what i mean. You know i’d never lie to you.

SOC: But . . .

WIS: Nor would i steer you wrong. (She puts a visorless helmet on Socrates’ head.) Love awaits you, Socrates. I suggest you strike first and true.

SOC: (Stumbles, somewhat bewildered, toward his beautifully dangerous Amazon foe.)

WIS: Don’t forget all i’ve taught you, dear foolish Soc. It just might save your life this day!
 
David:

Please forgive my confrontational tone. When someone attacks my woman Wisdom, well i sometimes foolishly try to defend her. At times i forget that Wisdom is Truth. And the Truth has no need for me to defend her; she is quite capable of defending herself. My quarrel is not with you, nor is it with Love. Lies are my enemy. Like the true Socrates, i fight against all that is untrue, unholy and unwise.

:o

The truth is, if you are able to show me Truth is not a virtue, for her sake i’ll have to concede the truth. I’m truly sincere, here. If you want to talk this through, i’ll remain true to my word. I will not debate. I’ll try to speak the truth in love and trust you will do so too. And i’ll listen to you. Truce?

🙂
 
Sister_G said:
Step 1 in learning a bit more on wisdom…please refer to the following link to Sacred Scripture. Read the letter of Saint James, chapter 3, verses 14 and following being sure to take in the foot notes.
usccb.org/nab/bible/james/james3.htm
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13Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show his works by a good life in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 Wisdom of this kind does not come down from above but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace.

(James 3)

Wisdom tells me that it is unwise to learn from her but then fail to live as she tells me.

Have i passed the first step, Sister?

🙂
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
http://www.johnthebaptistcs.ie/images/question_mark2.gif

This question is for anyone who cares to answer (not just David):

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1833 Virtue is a habitual and firm disposition to do good. How is true and genuine Wisdom, the kind of Wisdom that God Himself gives, NOT a habitual and firm disposition to do good?

🤷
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Thanks for pointing me (via PM) back to the article that I originally consulted at the beginning of this thread. I stand, er, sit corrected. Wisdom is indeed a virtue.

As is so often the case in these discussions, words and their meaning often trip us up.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
13Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show his works by a good life in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 Wisdom of this kind does not come down from above but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. 17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for those who cultivate peace.

(James 3)
Wisdom tells me that it is unwise to learn from her but then fail to live as she tells me.

Have i passed the first step, Sister?

🙂
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As is also true of worldly wisdom, knowledge that is not converted into understanding and put into practice is not of much use.
 
davidv said:
Thanks for pointing me (via PM) back to the article that I originally consulted at the beginning of this thread. I stand, er, sit corrected. Wisdom is indeed a virtue.

As is so often the case in these discussions, words and their meaning often trip us up.
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Yes, but if we are to believe the Catholic Encyclopedia (CE), it is an altogether different kind of virtue than Love. The CE indicates that there are many intellectual virtues, Wisdom, which is the pursuit of Truth for its own sake, is but one. Likewise, there are many moral virtues. However, there are only three theological virtues–Faith, Hope and Love. Like you, i’m learning something new every day!

One might then interpret St. Paul to say:

And now these three** [theological virtues] **remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.(1 Corinthians 13)

So there seems to be no sin nor error in saying that Love is the greatest of these three. However, do you think this would be a sin? Let’s say we take the greatest of the theological virtues (she being Love) and pit her against the greatest of the intellectual virtues (she being Wisdom) and see who is the greatest of them all?
 
Yes, Socrates, you have passed. Now Step 2 is for all of us to refer to the following link in New Advent (CE), in which Aquinas speaks of wisdom as an intellectual virtue. So there you have it! It IS a virtue!
newadvent.org/summa/2058.htm
 
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