Hope

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I don’t believe God wants to magically justify or transform us, whether here or in heaven. That might be more akin to Reformed theology. Love is a choice and Gods’ grace offers to mold/transform us but not without our cooperation. He draws us. This way we know why we love Him-because we’ve learned of His supreme value. For this same reason He won’t force us to love or obey Him either. Otherwise He may as well have prevented the fall or redeemed man immediately thereafter and avoided all the intervening drama. Instead He gave us sort of a reprieve-this life- where our eternal destinies may be worked out in time, where we’re allowed to struggle with sin and see if we really like it-to see if anything outside of God and His will can really satisfy us. This was the option Adam & Eve chose for us all. God let them do it and we now have the option to reverse this course of action within each of us. And this is a process called conversion, not an all-at-once event, but a process whereby we grow in perfection until God deems us ready. …

Indeed. In fact, reason and revelation tells me that without freedom to reject God, Love is impossible. The denial of this seemed to me to be the weakness in those of my past who embraced Reformed theology. God’s grace is certainly desirable, but not irresistible. If His love were irresistible, then my love or yours would not be love.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… All this to say that yes, I believe that wisdom gained will not be lost. We will always know why God deserves to be loved and obeyed and probably grow more yet in that awareness. Creation will not only be united in love with Him but also one in will with Him. OTOH, if it’s more correct to say that all is contained or subsumed in Love, that nothing is excluded by that term, even wisdom, then so be it.

And i’m the better for you having said all this!



One thing escapes my understanding, still: When you say, “all is contained or subsumed in Love … [including] wisdom …” what exactly do you mean? (Please forgive me for being slow to understand.)

 

[fhansen]

And i’m the better for you having said all this!



One thing escapes my understanding, still: When you say, “all is contained or subsumed in Love … [including] wisdom …” what exactly do you mean? (Please forgive me for being slow to understand.)

It’s just due to my lack of understanding. Perhaps Love is so all-encompassing that it could be said that there’s no virtue it lacks.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It’s just due to my lack of understanding. Perhaps Love is so all-encompassing that it could be said that there’s no virtue it lacks.

Perhaps you are correct, FH. Then again, maybe Wisdom is underrated and it is, in fact, the virtue that encompasses Love. Socrates said of Wisdom that . . .

… it is by its nature a capacity of our soul to love the truth and to do everything for its sake.
(Philebus 58)

And perhaps you and i should apply the same test we did before to help us see whether Love or Wisdom encompasses, and is therefore greater, than the other virtue. As you likely recall, we previously tried to imagine what a life of Hope would be without Love, and what a life of Faith would be without Love, and also what living for Love with no Hope or Faith would be like. The conclusion to which we came is that a life of Hope or Faith without Love had little value for pleasing God, and such a selfish existence would do more harm than good to others, and might even have eternally detrimental consequences to oneself. For, while it is possible to live without Love in this world, such a loveless life is hardly worth living and perhaps even impossible to live in the world to come.

On the other hand, it is possible, though certainly not the best existence, to live a life of Love without either Faith or Hope. For an absence of Faith and Hope would not necessarily be disbelief in God; it could be simply ignorance of God’s existence. The upshot was that if you or i had to choose only one of the three virtues, Love would be preferred.

Now, if it is OK with you, lets try to imagine a life completely devoted to Love without Wisdom and, in turn a life lived for Wisdom devoid of Love. If you, FH had to guess at which would be best, what would your choice be, and why?

 

[Hamlet123]

I’m not sure i follow your meaning.

A poor attempt at livity. The only compliments I get is from family and those I pay. What lack in humor I make up for in verbage.

God bless you Socrates.

BTW, this current set of blogs (today’s) are great, most thought provoking, intriqueing!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

A poor attempt at livity. The only compliments I get is from family and those I pay. What lack in humor I make up for in verbage.

God bless you Socrates.

BTW, this current set of blogs (today’s) are great, most thought provoking, intriqueing!

No problem!

Hey, may i ask why you chose Hamlet as your forum name?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It’s just due to my lack of understanding. Perhaps Love is so all-encompassing that it could be said that there’s no virtue it lacks.

Or if you like, FH i’ll give my opinion and would be glad to hear what you think of what i have to say.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister G http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

Yes, I do believe that a picture is worth a thousand words!
Yes, and it seems to me that Spe Salvi paints such a picture!

Have you ever noticed how some pictures are so lifelike that you’d swear the people in them were real?

Or have you ever seen a photograph of someone, Sister and noticed the sad expression on her face, and wondered what she was thinking? and even wanted to ask her why she was so sad?

 

[Hamlet123]

No problem!

Hey, may i ask why you chose Hamlet as your forum name?

I feel I know Hamlet, I feel as if his soul was much like mine. I feel I may be much like our friend from Denmark: making commitments, but lacking something to follow through. You can not say Hamlet lacked a passion for his commitment. Yet many will say that a lack of passion for something is the reason for delay. It is a mystery to me why some move without any hesitation -take charge!- when they feel or know what is right and others with the same convictions (just) can’t carry a task out. Isn’t it one of the great tragedies of life?
I love the play. You know, I am told Shakespear wrote it about 30 times. I think he took it from an old Spanish story with the same plot. It has a lot to do with Hope and Love.
I love the sceen where Polonius gives advice to his son as his son is about to depart to France. “…to thou own self be true…”

 

[fhansen]

Or if you like, FH i’ll give my opinion and would be glad to hear what you think of what i have to say.

Yes, I’ve blabbed a lot already and I’d love to hear what you have to say on it, Soc. Others, too, for that matter.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I feel I know Hamlet, I feel as if his soul was much like mine. I feel I may be much like our friend from Denmark: making commitments, but lacking something to follow through. You can not say Hamlet lacked a passion for his commitment. Yet many will say that a lack of passion for something is the reason for delay. It is a mystery to me why some move without any hesitation -take charge!- when they feel or know what is right and others with the same convictions (just) can’t carry a task out. Isn’t it one of the great tragedies of life?
I love the play. You know, I am told Shakespear wrote it about 30 times. I think he took it from an old Spanish story with the same plot. It has a lot to do with Hope and Love.
I love the sceen where Polonius gives advice to his son as his son is about to depart to France. “…to thou own self be true…”

Yes, i think i understand. And that old adage “to thou own self be true” is actually an ancient one. For Socrates more than once mentioned the oracle of the priestess (and prophetess) of Delphi, “Know thyself.” To the Greek philosopher, to know what to do but not do it was unwise, so to know oneself was a call to action as much as a call to reflection.

I suppose i, unlike Socrates and more like Hamlet, am a hesitator, too. It has been awhile since i’ve stepped foot in a church, not for lack of desire, but for desire for me and also for my wife to not suffer through starting over with a community of believers again. Wisdom tells me to go. Faith tells me to trust God. Love tells me to suffer for the good that will result. Hope. Well, i’d say she is my weakness, for i don’t have much of her. It is her opposite, or fear, that holds me back. Interesting how i did not realize this until i responded to your post. It took 488 posts to find what might be the real reason why i was led to ask what Hope is. Thank you, Hamlet, for helping me know myself just a little better.

 

[Hamlet123]

Yes, i think i understand. And that old adage “to thou own self be true” is actually an ancient one. For Socrates more than once mentioned the oracle of the priestess (and prophetess) of Delphi, “Know thyself.” To the Greek philosopher, to know what to do but not do it was unwise, so to know oneself was a call to action as much as a call to reflection.

I suppose i, unlike Socrates and more like Hamlet, am a hesitator, too. It has been awhile since i’ve stepped foot in a church, not for lack of desire, but for desire for me and also for my wife to not suffer through starting over with a community of believers again. Wisdom tells me to go. Faith tells me to trust God. Love tells me to suffer for the good that will result. Hope. Well, i’d say she is my weakness, for i don’t have much of her. It is her opposite, or fear, that holds me back. Interesting how i did not realize this until i responded to your post. It took 488 posts to find what might be the real reason why i was led to ask what Hope is. Thank you, Hamlet, for helping me know myself just a little better.

How kind of you, very very kind; you are as generous with your acolades as I am mistaken with my spelling. There is no better way to help a man than to give him a SINCERE compliement. Have you noticed how everyone on this blog has been so patient and (not to be redundant) kind. I would love to meet this whole group.
There is something coming through these lines that smells offly sweat! “What you are screams so loud I can hardly hear what you say.”
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, I’ve blabbed a lot already and I’d love to hear what you have to say on it, Soc. Others, too, for that matter.

If blabbed is a synonym for speak with uncanny insight, i quite agree!



And i fear that by opening my mouth in type i’ll show myself for who i really am, for as Solomon wrote:

Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.
(Proverbs 17)

So, at the risk of showing how little i have of the virtue Wisdom, here goes! But before i do, i think it will be helpful to briefly summarize what brought us to this point so near to the end of our conversation and the 500th post. (Please keep in mind that the ideas we’ve received thus far are no more mine than the words that a parrot preaches from its perch!)

How we’ve gotten to this point

But before i do, i think it will be helpful to briefly summarize what brought us to this point so near to the end of our conversation and the 500th post. (Please keep in mind that the ideas we’ve received thus far are no more mine than the words that a parrot preaches from its perch!)

We’ve been comparing our exploration of which virtue is the greatest to a fight to the death between Amazon beauties. Fallen in this duel are Hope and Faith, since only the greatest virtue is eternal, like the God who created it or possesses it perfectly. Hope and Faith, as we know them, shall not survive the grave, at least not as they are now. And neither are possessed by all three persons of the One True God, though they were possessed perfectly by Jesus when the Son of God took on human form on earth. Hope and Faith might be resurrected as we are, but certainly will not remain as they now are.

So, we found, there are good rational reasons to believe the revelation of the Holy Spirit given to us through St. Paul:

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Then stepped Woman Warrior Wisdom into the ring to face Lady Love while the blood was still dripping warm from her blade! The blows came fast and furiously as we quickly compared the two virtuous iron maidens:

• Love pleases God. But so does Wisdom.* Love survives the grave. But so does Wisdom.* Love is God. But so is Wisdom.* Those who love are like God. But so are those who show Wisdom.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

How far we have to go

For every move Love makes, Wisdom has a counter move. And it seems, at least at the moment, neither has the upper hand. Either St. Paul was wrong in saying Love was the greatest, or what he meant was that Love was only greater than Hope and Faith, but by no means greater than Wisdom. We need a way to break this stalemate, or declare a tie, saying neither is greater than the other. In that case, Love and Wisdom will both be awarded the gold medal, to Faith will go the silver, and Hope will be in third place, being the least of the virtues and receiving the bronze.

In such case, Wisdom would demand (and i would think it unwise to deny her!) that we amend our understanding and edit the sacred scripture to read:

And now these four remain: faith, hope, love and wisdom. But the greatest of these are love and wisdom, each being of equal value.

On the other hand, if Wisdom demands that she be declared the victorious virtue, truth would give us no other choice but to amend the biblical text to read:

And now these four remain: faith, hope, love and wisdom. But the greatest of these is wisdom.

And were it not unwise to do so, i think Wisdom would be so bold as to reason with the Pope to rewrite the Holy Book to take into account this new revelation.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

How to proceed

So i find myself in a conflict of interest and do not consider myself up for the job you’ve given me, FH! Like Socrates, i’m partial to Wisdom, considering myself one of her privileged lovers. Though i’ve played the field with Hope, Faith and even Lovely Lady Love, i’ve always come back to my first love, Wisdom. She never fails to take me back. She is most forgiving and merciful that way! For it is never unwise to return to her.

Now i have to choose between Love and her, and call me unloving, but i’m prone to embrace Wisdom once again. But she holds me at arm’s length and whispers that i should wait.

“Why?” i ask her, “i want you now more than ever!”

“Will you deny me even now, my love?” she ask.

“Never!” says i.

“Then do not deny the truth, for i am the truth. If Love is found to be greater then me, then you must speak the truth in love and tell all that she is supreme. You should love her most of all and take her into your arms and declare her the most beautiful. To do otherwise after seeing the truth would be most unwise.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’ve not enough time left this morning to continue. I’ll pray and think and return to the keyboard when i’m able. Ask God to give me Wisdom, even if, in the end, i must turn my back on her.

 

[Sister_G]

You cannot turn your back on wisdom, as it makes you a friend of God - it is tied into seeking Him and knowing Him. But STILL, this only leads us to Love!

 

[Hamlet123]

You cannot turn your back on wisdom,

Do you mean one is unable to turn one’s back on wisdom; or are you implying that it is not a good choice?

as it makes you a friend of God -

Wisdom makes you a friend of God? I think I agree, but I am not sure if that is what you are saying, please confirm.

it is tied into seeking Him and knowing Him.

You mean a part of wisdom, a charactoristic of wisdom is seeking God? Yes?

But STILL, this only leads us to Love!

God bless you Sister. For contributing and for giving your life to God. We need more of you guys.

 

[Hamlet123]

I see I do not have the mechanics of this blogging process down. I hope my last message to Sister is clear.

 

[Sister_G]

God bless you Sister. For contributing and for giving your life to God. We need more of you guys.

Thank you! I need all the blessings and prayers I can get too!
A vocation is a gift for the whole church, and I am humbly to try to live it with the help of God’s grace.

To answer you, hopefully, no it is not a good choice to turn our back on Wisdom as it is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and necessary
for our continued growth in holiness.