Hope

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Socrates4Jesus said:
JD:

Hey, i feel your despair, for i’ve been there.

Here is an incomplete (but hopefully helpful) definition of Hope:

Hope is a feeling of expectation that something good will result in the future. Hope is only as good as the object in which it is placed. If that object is trustworthy, then Hope can be a feeling of complete confidence and trust.

Here is an incomplete (but perhaps useful) definition of Faith:

Faith is a rational belief that something or someone is trustworthy. Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. If the object is trustworthy, then Faith can be trust based on reason or revealed knowledge that the object in which one has faith is trustworthy.

That is, simply put, at its best Hope is a feeling of trust and at its best Faith is a rational trust.

So, when i read this passage of the Bible

Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

(1 John 5)

i understand that i should have complete Faith (or a rational and reasoned trust) that God answers every prayer that is His will. I also understand that i should always Hope (or have feelings of great expectations) that what i’m asking God to grant is what He really wants for me.

That’s why Love and Wisdom are also important to me. Love motivates me to want what He wants. Wisdom teaches me what He wants. Such motivation and guidance helps me understand for what i should pray and gives me the encouragement to keep praying and not give up.
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Thank you, Socrates, your post is very helpful. Can we sum it up like this:

1.) Faith and hope both rely on an actually existing objective good.
2.) But, an objective good does not exist,
3.) Therefore, faith and hope are meaningless.

or, the positive:

1.) Faith and hope are meaningless in the absence of an actually existing objective good.
2.) But, an objective good does actually exists,
3.) Therefore, faith and hope are meaningful.

I have considered all that I have had over my lifetime and found that no mundane creature comfort has ever sufficed as an object of good that I could have faith or hope in. I have found that even life itself has not measured up as that which I can have faith or hope in. But, yet, all day I read the posts of people, on CAF, who either have no belief in God, or reject him. What, then, is their actually existing objective good? What is it that makes their striving worth it?

Honestly, somehow, I used to think there must be something other than God. Then, I thought about the three football players who, just the other day, quietly gave themselves up to the void. They strove for a while. And, they strove during their lifetimes. Then, to just give in? Do we know whether any of the three that perished at sea were, as they say, “God-fearing”?

jd
 
JDaniel said:
Thank you, Socrates, your post is very helpful. Can we sum it up like this:

1.) Faith and hope both rely on an actually existing objective good.
2.) But, an objective good does not exist,
3.) Therefore, faith and hope are meaningless.

or, the positive:

1.) Faith and hope are meaningless in the absence of an actually existing objective good.
2.) But, an objective good does actually exists,
3.) Therefore, faith and hope are meaningful.

…
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Sounds extremely reasonable and practical to me, JD!

👍

I’d say that, given these two options, you and i should do our best to determine whether God and life after death is actual. If God is and eternal life is, we should live for the life to come, for it will be a great deal longer than the one lived now. If God is not and life forever is not, we should live for all the self-indulgence we can get now, for when we breath our last breath here, there will be no first breath there.

I find it interesting that many of those who had great minds believed in God and a life after death. Socrates, St. Paul, Einstein, Buddha, Gandhi (to name a few) taught that it was unthinkable that some kind of God did not exist or that there was no existence beyond this one. While it is certainly true that you or i might find some thoughtful atheists who believed differently, it is comforting that there are those with superior intelligence who believed in being with Superior Intelligence and a life to come.

If you or i need evidence and rational reasons why to believe, there are many. We don’t have to leave our brains at the door of a church to become believers in Christ. Sure, others will give reasons why not to believe, but i’ve found after talking to many skeptics (and being one myself) that for every good objection why not to believe there is a correspondingly good answer why to believe. It really comes down to a choice, i think.

Regarding this choice, it does not make rational sense to me to choose sides with the atheists. Look at it this way:

Let’s say God does NOT exist and i choose to believe and you choose not to believe in Him. In this case, i would break even, i think. I’d live my life in delusion that He was real and that i’d be with Him after my death. I’d take this delusion to the grave with me, for it would die with me. Still, i’d live my life for the benefit of others, making their lives better, i think, for my having lived.

You, perhaps, would win if there was no God and no reason to hope in a life to come. You would win rationally, for having believed the truth. Emotionally, well, i suppose that as you were disappointed by life and as death drew near you would suffer deeper and more persistent despair. Instead of dying with hope of life to come, you’d end this existence without hope of any God or any hope of a second chance at life.

Now, lets say that the Christian God does exist and i choose to believe and you choose not to believe in Him. In this case, i would be the clear winner and you would undoubtedly be the undisputed loser. All my suffering of giving up what i want for the benefit of others would bring the reward of seeing a smile on Jesus’ face when i finally see Him face-to-face and we embrace.

All your living for self, getting all you can out of life and living by the creed, “Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!” would be in vain. There would be no joy when your eyes are closed for the last time in this life and opened for the first time in the next. Consequences, perhaps eternal ones, would follow you from the grave. Your hope of ending suffering at death would be in vain.

So, it seems to me that the worst for which a believer in God can hope is to break even; the best is to win eternal happiness. On the other hand, the worst an atheist might suffer are eternal consequences of some kind and a continuation (or perhaps the beginning) of suffering after this life; the best is to win, if having an end of existence can honestly be called winning.

If i had absolutely NO idea what was the truth, it seems to me i’d be a fool not to take a chance of winning or breaking even over the chance of some eternal loss. If one must gamble with one’s very self, it seems to me the safest bet is to believe in God and life everlasting.

“What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?”

–Jesus (Matthew 16)
 
Are you a gambling man, JD?

If so, what odds do you prefer?

If no, then why not learn all you can about this God and gift of eternal life He offers to see if there is any good reason to hope and to believe?

🤷
 
Hey Soc!

I’ve been following this thread for the last few (5 or so I think) pages and I think you and JD might be on the same page. I think JD was saying that he found Christ and therefore has hope - where before he had none.

What he’s puzzled by is those who don’t have Christ and still seem to have hope, particularly those people like this on these boards.

Am I right JD?
 
DrPiano said:
Hey Soc!

I’ve been following this thread for the last few (5 or so I think) pages and I think you and JD might be on the same page. I think JD was saying that he found Christ and therefore has hope - where before he had none.

What he’s puzzled by is those who don’t have Christ and still seem to have hope, particularly those people like this on these boards.

Am I right JD?
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Thank you, Elisa.

My apologies, JD for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

:o
 
Sister_G said:
FH and Soc, I think we have a wonderful examination for the rest of Lent with the words of St. Thomas Aquinas. I have been reading him for a couple of years now and meditating on his writings. Dying to self and above all to the lower nature passions is a must for those who seriously want to follow and imitate Jesus. These are wonderful things to keep present in our mids and hearts! Great job!
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That they are, Sister!

👍
 
JD:

Again, my apologies. It seems to me that since Hope is an emotion, it ebbs and flows like the tide. I know that sometimes i have high hopes and sometimes i’m feeling down, even though my circumstances might be the same. If this is what you are going through, i identify.
 
DrPiano said:
Hey Soc!

I’ve been following this thread for the last few (5 or so I think) pages and I think you and JD might be on the same page. I think JD was saying that he found Christ and therefore has hope - where before he had none.

What he’s puzzled by is those who don’t have Christ and still seem to have hope, particularly those people like this on these boards.

Am I right JD?
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Well, I wanted this thread to serve two purposes: the one you mentioned, that I have my hope in a “good” God, and, the second, as a solidification of it for me personally. If the non-believer has real hope, or hopes, I must know what they are. Then, be comparing, I will know whether or not I’ve made the right choice.

Thank you greatly,
jd
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
JD:

Again, my apologies. It seems to me that since Hope is an emotion, it ebbs and flows like the tide. I know that sometimes i have high hopes and sometimes i’m feeling down, even though my circumstances might be the same. If this is what you are going through, i identify.
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Is hope an emotion? Or, is it something that is led, to some extent, by the emotions?

jd
 
JDaniel said:
Is hope an emotion? Or, is it something that is led, to some extent, by the emotions?

jd
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JD:

Sorry for taking so long to respond. If you are interested in continuing, my answer is this: I’d say that the opposite of Hope is the feeling of despair. Since despair is an emotion, it seems to me that Hope (the feeling of expectation of some good result) is also an emotion.

Hence, Hope should not be confused with Faith, which is a rational and unemotional decision to put confidence in some truth (though in some cases it might be an irrational and unemotional confidence in some truth). Faith, then, can be a rational trust in a truth, while Hope is an emotional trust in a truth.

What do you think?
 
WISDOM: (speaking with more urgency, now): Listen to me Socrates. There’s not much time.

SOCRATES (turning to face Wisdom and turning his back on approaching Love): I’m all ears, not that it will do me any good.

WIS: When she draws close enough to strike she will ask you one question. Answer truthfully, or you will not live to see tomorrow.

SOC: I don’t suppose you know what she will ask, and how i should answer.

WIS: Yes, but i won’t tell you the answer. You must discover that yourself.

SOC: Quickly, then. What will she ask?

WIS: Do you love her?

SOC: Is that the question, or are you asking me?

WIS: Yes.

SOC: Do i love Love? Well, i suppose i love her about as much as those people who loved the one with the Chainsaw before he cut them in half! (You know, the ones in that Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie you warned me not to watch.) But, no. I really should love Love, shouldn’t i? I mean, if i say i don’t love her, i’m done for, aren’t i?

WIS: You should say the truth, Socrates.

LOVE: Socrates, turn and face me. I have something to ask you.

SOC (turns to see Love towering over him, smiling victoriously, with drawn sword and he is terrified).
 
SOC (nervously): Ask, Love, i will do my best to answer. But before i do, i want to remind you of your mercy. (He drops his sword to the ground.) I’ve always admired your merciful character.

LOVE (looking stern as she points the tip of her sword at Socrates’ heart): Hear my question, Socrates and let nothing but the truth leave your lips. Do you love me . . .

SOC (smiling confidently as he glances at Wisdom and then returns his gaze to Love): Yes, i think i know the answer to this one . . .

LOVE: Do not answer till i finish the question. Do you love me more than Wisdom?

SOC (confused): Sorry, could you repeat the question?

WIS (draws near to Socrates’ and whispers softly in his ear): Do you love Love more than me?

SOC (pulling away and saying): I do believe my ears deceive me. For a moment ago, you Wisdom told me she would ask if i loved her. Now she’s asking an altogether different question. (Now speaking angrily.) Isn’t she? You’ve never lied to me before! Why betray me now?

WIS (with a tone of reconciliation): No, sweet Socrates, i spoke the truth. She IS asking whether you love her, but that is not all.

SOC (shouting): One question! You told me only ONE!

WIS (pleading): Soc, i revealed as much truth to you as you were ready to hear. Now, answer truthfully and you have nothing to fear.

LOVE: Are you prepared to answer, Socrates?

SOC (turning from Wisdom to Love): Please be patient Love, as i know you are. Do i love Love more than i adore Wisdom? Well, how could i not? I mean, look at you! You’re so beautiful.

WIS (Looks disapprovingly at Socrates).

SOC (noticing Wisdom’s expression): You are BOTH beautiful! You truly are. How can i choose one over the other?

LOVE (with an insistent tone): Answer the question. How do you really feel, Socrates?

WIS: (with a pleading tone): Speak the truth in love. Tell her Socrates. Tell her the truth!

SOC (sweating as he anxiously raises his voice): All right! All right! The answer is NO! I do NOT love you more than her. How can i while looking down that double-edged sword of yours all lit with the fire of God’s wrath? No, it’s not love, but fear. Fear and dread of your judgment is what i feel. (Glances affectionately at Wisdom, who smiles at him.) But as for my first love Wisdom, i’ve always loved her. I’d be a fool not to. There, i’ve said it.

WIS (happily): Well done, my dearest! You’ve answered truthfully.

SOC: Yes, i have. Haven’t i? The truth, that’s what you told me to say.

LOVE (thrusts her sword in Socrates’ heart).

SOC (looks in horror at Love as she removes the blade and turns to look in disbelief at Wisdom).

WIS (kneels down and smiles as she whispers provocatively in Socrates’ ear): And the truth shall set you free.
 
What? I’ve heard news that Love might yet need defending-where have we failed? I can only ask, has Wisdom betrayed Soc? Or has Soc betrayed Wisdom? (I’d submit that Wisdom can’t betray as she can only lead us as far as she’s able and we’re willing to go) Whether Wisdom or Soc is at fault, the fear of Love, at least this kind of fear, can only come from the lack of knowing her. A fear that speaks of an awe of Loves’ beauty increases Wisdom while the undeserved fear that harkens back to the Garden belies man’s rejection of Love. IMHO 🙂

Sounds like we haven’t wrapped this up yet. Well, OK, maybe we never will but the object of my Hope is being misunderstood and misconstrued and I can’t but feel the need to defend her-unless another appliance breaks down or my wife finally succeeds in making me feel guilty for posting. :o
 
fhansen said:
What? I’ve heard news that Love might yet need defending-where have we failed? I can only ask, has Wisdom betrayed Soc? Or has Soc betrayed Wisdom? (I’d submit that Wisdom can’t betray as she can only lead us as far as she’s able and we’re willing to go) Whether Wisdom or Soc is at fault, the fear of Love, at least this kind of fear, can only come from the lack of knowing her. A fear that speaks of an awe of Loves’ beauty increases Wisdom while the undeserved fear that harkens back to the Garden belies man’s rejection of Love. IMHO 🙂

Sounds like we haven’t wrapped this up yet. Well, OK, maybe we never will but the object of my Hope is being misunderstood and misconstrued and I can’t but feel the need to defend her-unless another appliance breaks down or my wife finally succeeds in making me feel guilty for posting. :o
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LOL! Nearly wrapped up.

Musical Outro

And cut to commercial.
 
**Love must perfect Love. **

**WIS **(**kneels down and smiles as she whispers provocatively in Socrates’ ear): And the truth shall set you free. **

my favorite parts are these???

SOC: Quickly, then. What will she ask?

WIS: Do you love her?

SOC: Is that the question, or are you asking me?

WIS: Yes.

SOC: Do i love Love? Well, i suppose i love her about as much as those people who loved the one with the Chainsaw before he cut them in half! (You know, the ones in that Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie you warned me not to watch.) But, no. I really should love Love, shouldn’t i? I mean, if i say i don’t love her, i’m done for, aren’t i?

WIS: You should say the truth, Socrates.

I Loved this
 
SOC (looking into Wisdom’s eyes): I’m not dead. Am i?

WIS (shaking her head slowly and smiling).

LOVE: Do you feel dead, Socrates?

SOC: No, actually, despite this bleeding wound in my heart i feel–renewed.

WIS: If any man be in love he is a new creation.

LOVE: Old things are passed away.

WIS: All things are made new.

SOC: Christ.

WIS: What?

SOC: If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. You meant to say in Christ, not in love. Didn’t you?

LOVE: Does it not feel the same?

SOC: What?

LOVE: How do you feel about me, Socrates? Do you fear me now?

SOC: Well, i’d honestly have to say no. I don’t feel fear; i feel–loved.

LOVE: And well you should, for that is who i am. And there is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear . . .

WIS: . . . because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. And is not God Love, my Soc?

SOC: Yes, so you’ve said. That much i apprehend, though i don’t comprehend it.

WIS: And is not Christ God?

SOC: Yes. So, Christ is–well, her?

WIS: Yes, in a way. She is part of who He is, as am i.

SOC: But, i still don’t understand why i’m not dead.

LOVE: Who you were is dead, my love. You have been killed with Love.

WIS: And you no longer live, but Love lives in you. The life you live in the body, you live by faith in the Son of God, who loved you and gave Himself for you.

SOC: So, what i hear you both saying is that who i was is dead. Who i am now is alive. So, who am i?

WIS: You are Socrates4Jesus, who counts himself dead to sin but alive to Love in Christ Jesus.

LOVE: Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires, Socrates4Jesus. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to me, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness.

WIS: For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. You have been set free from sin and have become a slaves to the virtues.

SOC: A slave to you, dear Wisdom?

WIS (kissing the palm of his hand): Yes.

SOC: And also to you, too, my Love?

LOVE: I am yours, my love.

SOC: I feel as though i’ve died and gone to heaven! But what of them? (He gestures to two women standing at a distance, and shining like angels in white robes as brilliant as flashes of lightning.)

WIS: Do you not recognize them, Soc?

LOVE: And desire them, still?

SOC: Why, yes. That’s Faith, and Hope! I did not think i’d see them ever again. They are so beautiful now.

LOVE: Yes, but they are not yours, not yet. You will have them in life everlasting.

WIS: Their names are not Faith and Hope but Satisfaction and Joy. Once you have the object of your Faith, she will be transformed into Satisfaction. When you have the object of your Hope she will become Joy complete. And they will be with you every moment forever and ever.

SOC: And Muslims think they’ll have it made with a harem of virgins in their Paradise! How could anything compare to you four?

WIS: And more.

SOC: There’s more?

WIS: Yes, Justice. I have much to teach you about her, Socrates, but now it is more than you can bear.

SOC: So, i don’t have Satisfaction and Joy, not yet. That means i’m not dead, right?

WIS: True.

LOVE: For you are more alive now then you have ever been.

WIS: But not as alive as you will be.

SOC: Then what is this? A dream?

WIS: No.

SOC: Then, it’s some kind of–vision?

WIS: Call it a realization.

LOVE: A resurrection.

SOC: An awakening.

WIS: Good morning, Soc.

LOVE: Welcome to the rest of your real life.

SOC (smiling and shouting for joy): And i thought i’d never wake up from that nightmare!

WIS and LOVE (Laughing and embracing him).
 
onelife1 said:
**Love must perfect Love. **

**WIS **(**kneels down and smiles as she whispers provocatively in Socrates’ ear): And the truth shall set you free. **

my favorite parts are these???

SOC: Quickly, then. What will she ask?

WIS: Do you love her?

SOC: Is that the question, or are you asking me?

WIS: Yes.

SOC: Do i love Love? Well, i suppose i love her about as much as those people who loved the one with the Chainsaw before he cut them in half! (You know, the ones in that Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie you warned me not to watch.) But, no. I really should love Love, shouldn’t i? I mean, if i say i don’t love her, i’m done for, aren’t i?

WIS: You should say the truth, Socrates.

I Loved this
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So did i!

😃
 
Bravo, Socrates! Love and Wisdom have built themselves a dwelling - for one who longs for satisfaction and joy!
 
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