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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I understand your strong feelings about the weakness of emotion.
But you have not answered my question, FH. Is Love a virtue that is both a feeling and an action? In otherwords, is the virtue of Love both compassion felt and compassion expressed by words and deeds?
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
(Ephesians 4)
Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.
(1 Peter 3)
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Our discussion has led me to the conclusion that Wisdom receives the truth and Faith believes the truth.
In other words, Wisdom obtains the truth by means of reason and Divine revelation. Faith accepts the truth by means of reason, and perhaps with some supernatural assistance of which i’m unaware.
However, i don’t want to stray to far from the question at hand to which we’ve yet to come to an agreement after more than 600 posts! To wit, what is Hope?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Very well, then. If it is true that one of the greatest of virtues, whom we affectionately call Love, is both an emotion and action, then it is not impossible that Hope is also emotion in perfect harmony with action.
This is a good thing for me to figure out, for i’d have no hope of knowing i have the virtue of Hope if i have the wrong idea of who she is!
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I feel a special joy when i recite the passage of Sacred Scripture you mention, Sister. It is one i committed to memory long ago:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
(Galatians 5)
It sounds to me like you are saying neither joy nor love is an emotion. This is something i’ve never considered, and would very much like to know why you believe this.
Is your point that God cannot possibly give us emotions? Are you saying that feelings are the product of our own minds and never given by God, and therefore they cannot be virtues, because virtues are given by God?
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fhansen
Guest
Yes, compassion would always be felt and I object to the idea that Love is simply a matter of the will, which I’ve heard expressed elsewhere, as if strong feelings were inappropriate or even suspect. I’m not so sure about calling a virtue an emotion, though.I understand your strong feelings about the weakness of emotion.
But you have not answered my question, FH. Is Love a virtue that is both a feeling and an action? In otherwords, is the virtue of Love both compassion felt and compassion expressed by words and deeds?
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
(Ephesians 4)
Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.
(1 Peter 3)
F
fhansen
Guest
Well, I’ve always stressed in my posts the supernatural aspect of Faith and I can’t really conceive of it without that aspect. Hope, as well, is a gift by which I can desire and trust that God will accomplish in me the work of salvation. It’s simply placing our Hope in Him and not in this world. It’s simply doing something that I have no possible way to do on my own because we’re dealing with things I have no possible way of knowing let alone trusting in without Divine help.
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Sister_G
Guest
All that we are is given to us by God, except sin. Certainly we have feelings and emotions intermixed with the preformance of a virtue, but be sure they are not the same thing. Look at Christ as He carried His Cross. All the emotion that could have/might have/should have gone with that most incredible episode and yet His divinity jeweled with virtue carried the day, not His emotional humanity. That is not to judge and say, “O, Jesus was so emotional, look at what He did to the money changers, look at, etc”. Zeal, in fact, is the virtue of justice driven by emotion! So no, I am not divorcing the two concepts, just saying we must be cautious as to how we look at what comes first.
I guess we could say “Virtue is a preforming art!”
J
JDaniel
Guest
I think that there is more of a distinction between Love and Hope. Love is “action” in the sense of “acts” of Love, of which there are many. In fact, there are “acts” that express Love that are themselves not acts of Love but are acts derived directly from the kind of control Love has on the Will. In some sense, the Loved one is “in” the Lover, and the Lover is in union with the Loved. And, of course, there is the “emotion” of Love, which is that which makes one unable to prefer Reason in certain situations.
Hope, on the other hand, is never unreasonable. Certainly, if we Hope in God as that object towards which our moral actions tend, that bring us all the way up to Charity, we are “acting”. We are walking the walk. Now, if we lack Hope, we are neutral: no action. But, when we have Hope, and when our Faith and Knowledge are impaired - as they could be as mere humans - the emotion we feel is that of fear. The fear is whether or not we will be in God, and, whether or not He will be in us.
The concept of “Hope being an emotion in perfect harmony with action” I must admit, is intriguing, but, I think I am at least partially misunderstanding what that means. Can you give me some idea of how you mean that?
Very funny. :egyptian:
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I’m just trying to think rationally about it, hoping this will help me get closer to Hope.
My thinking is this:
a. Love is, in part, the emotion of compassion.
b. Love is in whole a virtue.
therefore
c. Love is (a) and (b). That is, she is both an emotion and a virtue.
Maybe the truth is that not that a virtue is an emotion. Maybe the truth is that a virtue (such as Love) can have emotion as an attribute.
To put it another way: Love is a virtue with feeling.
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fhansen
Guest
Well, I suppose others have figured all this stuff out a long time ago but at least it’s helped get me to explore my own feelings. No, that’s not what I wanted to say. It’s helped me to get in touch with… no, no, that’s not it either. Alright, it’s got me to think about how dumb and empty it would be if I couldn’t feel love for God-and from Him- let alone my family, etc. And though I don’t know how to explain that sense, I know it’s real and of precious value. And if at one time I still had any doubts about the reality of Love- about its’ having any sort of ultimate import or higher position than common sentimentality- His love is such that it’s been able to definitively put those doubts to rest. Love is the driving force behind Gods’ universe. But maybe that doesn’t help.
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JDaniel
Guest
Hey! FH, are you OK?Well, I suppose others have figured all this stuff out a long time ago but at least it’s helped get me to explore my own feelings. No, that’s not what I wanted to say. It’s helped me to get in touch with… no, no, that’s not it either. Alright, it’s got me to think about how dumb and empty it would be if I couldn’t feel love for God-and from Him- let alone my family, etc. And though I don’t know how to explain that sense, I know it’s real and of precious value. And if at one time I still had any doubts about the reality of Love- about its’ having any sort of ultimate import or higher position than common sentimentality- His love is such that it’s been able to definitively put those doubts to rest. Love is the driving force behind Gods’ universe. But maybe that doesn’t help.
jd
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fhansen
Guest
I probably worded my ending wrong. I meant, maybe none of what I said was of help to Socs’ cause of determining Loves’ qualities. Otherwise, yeah, I’m doing OK-I wish the economy was better and my grape crop looked a little more promising for this year and the frost would quit threatening and business associates and my kids would always do what I tell them and we’d end the war and famine and everyone would believe in God but somehow things don’t always seem to go my way.
But thanks for asking.
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Sister_G
Guest
Of all the things love brings us to, honesty is one of the the most important realities. That was beautiful FH! You are in my prayers!
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fhansen
Guest
Thank you Sister. That was meant to be humorous in part but the reality is that the times are stressful for many of us (I guess they always are in many respects) and yet the good side of it is that, if we’re willing, these times can also test us and mold us and bring us to place more fully our Hope in Him. I happen to be a hard nut-I tend to “kick at the goads” right along, often struggling with wanting things my way-but He’s been patient and kind and shown me His beauty and truth in a variety of ways and I trust He’ll end up with things His way in the end.
S
Sister_G
Guest
You are most welcome! It would be for your greatest good and His glory if everything works out the way He wants! Keep the faith! You are on the right path!
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
How could i fail to pray for you, too, FH? After all you’ve done to help me see Hope and Love and Faith and Wisdom in all their beauty, unclothed of doubt and deception, at least as far as my mind’s eye is able to undress them! At the very least i should not sin against you by failing to pray for you.
There are two other things i might give you besides. They are two words Wisdom whispered to me long ago, and of which she continues to remind me to this day, to calm my soul in times of turmoil:
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
(Romans 8:28)
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 4:6-7)
After whispering the first, she always asks me, “Does Paul say God works some things for your good?”
My answer is always, “No, he says all things.”
“And is this storm from which you are now suffering included in all things?”
“Yes,” i always admit, “even this He will work for my good.”
“And what is your good?” she never fails to ask.
“His purpose, whatever that may be,” i have to always answer.
“Then look for that purpose, no matter how dangerous the storm, keep your eyes out for it like a ship’s captain in a great gale keeps watch for a light house to bring him to safety.”
And when i am still anxious, she reminds me of the second quoted passage. As i repeat the words from memory and consider their meaning, something strange happens. It is Hope, i think, who then comes to my side and caresses my hair and calms me, and my fear and anxiety melts away like a snowball on a hot grill, and it their place is peace and joy.
Funny how Hope, the one we all agreed was the weakest of the four virtues in me, is the only one of the four in me who is capable of doing this great kindness for me. When it comes to this purpose of providing peace and joy, she is the greatest of them all! Were it no for her, and Wisdom who introduced me to her, i might have given up in despair long ago.
There are two other things i might give you besides. They are two words Wisdom whispered to me long ago, and of which she continues to remind me to this day, to calm my soul in times of turmoil:
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
(Romans 8:28)
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 4:6-7)
After whispering the first, she always asks me, “Does Paul say God works some things for your good?”
My answer is always, “No, he says all things.”
“And is this storm from which you are now suffering included in all things?”
“Yes,” i always admit, “even this He will work for my good.”
“And what is your good?” she never fails to ask.
“His purpose, whatever that may be,” i have to always answer.
“Then look for that purpose, no matter how dangerous the storm, keep your eyes out for it like a ship’s captain in a great gale keeps watch for a light house to bring him to safety.”
And when i am still anxious, she reminds me of the second quoted passage. As i repeat the words from memory and consider their meaning, something strange happens. It is Hope, i think, who then comes to my side and caresses my hair and calms me, and my fear and anxiety melts away like a snowball on a hot grill, and it their place is peace and joy.
Funny how Hope, the one we all agreed was the weakest of the four virtues in me, is the only one of the four in me who is capable of doing this great kindness for me. When it comes to this purpose of providing peace and joy, she is the greatest of them all! Were it no for her, and Wisdom who introduced me to her, i might have given up in despair long ago.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
In Fall timely fell
from my twisted tree
tortured fear Anxiety.
With a sigh did she so kindly die.
And in her grave laid i
my cries of, “Why?”
In Spring her doom was not in vain;
From earth’s womb Hope sprang with amniotic rain
twin babes–a gentle girl and boisterous boy,
one she named peace, the other joy.
For these orphans she found
a nurturing home;
In my soul love i
each as my own.
from my twisted tree
tortured fear Anxiety.
With a sigh did she so kindly die.
And in her grave laid i
my cries of, “Why?”
In Spring her doom was not in vain;
From earth’s womb Hope sprang with amniotic rain
twin babes–a gentle girl and boisterous boy,
one she named peace, the other joy.
For these orphans she found
a nurturing home;
In my soul love i
each as my own.
F
fhansen
Guest
Thank you guys and gals, sisters and brothers, you’re gonna make me get all slobbery here. :bighanky:While I have genuine concerns in my life it’s probably also true that I’m less appreciative than I ought to be- others in this world have it much worse than me-but life’s not easy for any of us, at least if we wait long enough. I appreciate and covet your prayers, especially as they relate to my placing more Hope in God. It’s funny, because I’m at a point in my faith where I don’t think I would forsake Him and I believe He wouldn’t abandon me to my own despair or doubts for long, but I’ve had my share of “dark nights” in the past few years and I understand it more and more as a test and a “stretching” of my faith in and love for Him. And no matter how things go, my hope and commitment is to be able to persevere in proclaiming the goodness and love of God-He’s shown me too much to have any right to do otherwise. In any case, this thread’s included a special group who’ve done well at being more than civil and who’ve pretty well succeeded-unusually so, I’d say-at keeping the truth as our focus and egos at bay. I’ll start keeping you all in my prayers now, too- don’t know why I didn’t think of it before. Many thanks.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
No, thank you for sharing the wisdom you’ve harvested from your experiences, FH. I personally am the better for it. May God’s peace and joy keep you close to Him.
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