Hopefully philosophical question about the Fall

  • Thread starter Thread starter valueperson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
V

valueperson

Guest
I really did try to find another forum for this, and would appreciate suggestions about that.

Do you regret the Fall? Do you wish it had not happened, that there had been no original sin? If so, you’re presumably wishing for something, for a real world of today. In your wish, what’s in that world? What goes on there?
 
In a way, I don’t regret it. It wouldn’t have set in motion the epic tale of Mankind or given us the ability to display our love for God by turning to Him and away from evil.
 
God has brought about a great and glorious Redemption by dealing with humanity’s fall. This I don’t regret. What I do regret is the great good we would have had without the fall, but now will never and can never know. All we can know is the good we have now, not the good we might have had if things had been otherwise.

C.S. Lewis wrote a novel about this: Perelandra. It’s about a world (Venus) without the fall, and is quite good.
 
I’ve read that C.S. Lewis trilogy; it’s great.

If one can speculate about a future, though, one can speculate about an alternate present.

So, no need to know. Just speculate.
 
What’s done is done. I can deal with the world as it is. I see beauty in this hellhole I call “Home.” :love:

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
 
Equites Christi:

Thanks also for your response.

Does it not imply, though, that under certain (unique, extraordinary) circumstances, sin is necessary? Does it not also imply that people suffer for the sake of a story, for the sake of a display?
 
I don’t regret it. It’s called felix culpa, the happy fault. Redeemed man is greater than unfallen man would have been. 😃
 
In Adam, we have all fallen. Every sin we commit, we partake of the sin of Adam. Therefore, we must not blame Adam alone but ourselves. But God foreknew man would fall, so He used the opportunity to redeem us. As one saint said: “O happy fault!”
 
Sillara: thanks also for your response.

Is original sin the only felix cupla? Or is any sin that makes man greater also a felix culpa?
 
Eucharisted: Thanks also for your response, but I must admit it confuses me completely. Do you, personally, regret Adam’s fall, or do you not?
 
Blade And Blood: Thanks also for your response.

I realize I’m being dense, but I don’t see the irony. :confused:

With this sort of question, too, it seems to me that “What’s done is done” is what we doctors call a “cop-out.”
 
Obviously God, knowing everything, foresaw the fall, But he created mankind anyway, with free will, knowing that they would sin, and knowing that he would send his son as a redeemer to make things right. Nobody can read the mind of God. Maybe he also foresaw that the gift of free will and the ability to freely choose to love Him, was worth it.

Also we have to consider that even had Adam and Eve never sinned, any of their descendants could have (and probably would have) sinned, up to and including us.
 
No regrets about the fall mainly because I had no opportunity to be invovled with the event. No amount of pondering on it will change matters. Yet there are many present day situation which I can aid or assist by my efforts.

Also, my ability to pray and worship is not diminished by the fall. It would be interesting to see how worship would be if there had been no fall.

God bless
 
I really did try to find another forum for this, and would appreciate suggestions about that.

Do you regret the Fall? Do you wish it had not happened, that there had been no original sin? If so, you’re presumably wishing for something, for a real world of today. In your wish, what’s in that world? What goes on there?
Adam, before the Fall, represents that which anyone would have some regret not being like. Nevertheless, subsequently, something better came about: the Sacrifice.

Imagine, God sent His only Son to become man, then He gives up His earthly life through an excruciating process of torture and death, for what purpose? For what purpose? Simply to show us how much He loves us!

That is what we Catholics are constantly reminded of when we celebrate our Mass.

jd
 
Blade And Blood: Thanks also for your response.

I realize I’m being dense, but I don’t see the irony. :confused:

With this sort of question, too, it seems to me that “What’s done is done” is what we doctors call a “cop-out.”
Well, what can I do about this alleged “Fall.” If I had the ability to go back in Time, I would not change a thing for the sake of others. People are still capable of being happy in this world.

Ironically Yours. ❤️
 
No regrets about the fall mainly because I had no opportunity to be invovled with the event.
Yet, redeemed or not, the original sin is your sin, by definition. There is no more Catholic an idea than that. If it wasn’t your sin, you would not have needed to be baptized until you sinned consciously.
 
Yet, redeemed or not, the original sin is your sin, by definition. There is no more Catholic an idea than that. If it wasn’t your sin, you would not have needed to be baptized until you sinned consciously.
What can we suppose you to mean by the above?

When Christ died, he took (with Him) the burden of original sin from off our backs. The effects of it are still with us, but, not the sin itself. Baptism is how we go to Him, acknowledge these things, and thank Him for what He did.

Are you conducting a deposition?

jd
 
Am I conducting a deposition? Not consciously.

My understanding of Catholic tradition is that baptism should be done during infancy, primarily in order to ensure salvation for the baby in the event of early death. Baptism may be an act of worship for those capable of worship, but that seems to be secondary to absolution from original sin. (In Catholicism, anyway.)

I bring the topic up in response to HighwayHound’s assertion that the Fall is, essentially, none of his concern because he wasn’t there.

Just a spur off the main track of whether or not the Fall is, in retrospect, cause for regret.
 
Am I conducting a deposition? Not consciously.

My understanding of Catholic tradition is that baptism should be done during infancy, primarily in order to ensure salvation for the baby in the event of early death. Baptism may be an act of worship for those capable of worship, but that seems to be secondary to absolution from original sin. (In Catholicism, anyway.)

I bring the topic up in response to HighwayHound’s assertion that the Fall is, essentially, none of his concern because he wasn’t there.

Just a spur off the main track of whether or not the Fall is, in retrospect, cause for regret.
OK, because, I hate depositions!🙂

Baptism is not so much an act of worship. It is more an initiation. It is a right of passage into the corpus of Christ. A right of passage into union with Him. As this, it may be somewhat secondary to the sacrifice. The sacrifice is much more than just absolution from original sin. The sacrifice involves the entire theology and etiology of God’s unique relationship with mankind.

For HighwayHound, the Fall is no longer consequential, except in so far as now we must die and shed our earthly skin and bones, suffer pain, suffer ignorance, suffer guilt, suffer temptations, and so on. Christ’s sacrifice made the Fall inconsequential for him.

jd
 
I don’t think “The Fall” is cause for regret in any way. Contrarywise for its accepted interpretation. I don’t think you will like why I think that, but here it is, since this is the philosophy forum:

It is pretty clear, that is to say I’ve accepted the notion, that The Fall and Genesis in general is more likely an allegory than a modern day documentary type account. This fits for me with the general phenomenon of folks loving stories and needing to have some accounting of things.

Across cultures, all allegedly descended from one couple, there are many of these accountings, and they are too diverse to really comply with one original event that happened in a particular way. I won’t go into all of why I think this is so, I am simply proposing that the account we take as Biblical truth is truth, but in the alegorical, teaching, or psychological sense as distinct from a purely historical account.

At any rate, my take on the Fall is that it actually describes the ascent of the aspect of Consciousness called awarenes to the level of the ability to self-observe. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the stereoscopic ability of human awarness, i.e., the ability to include one’s *self *as an object of one’s own subjective awareness.

The Fall, if it is to be properly attributed in my opinion, is the forgettery of original awareness by means of the overlaying of duality, ie “good and evil.” This idea is predicated on the fact that humans are, either by Grace, practice, prayer, contemplation, meditation, and even trauma, capable of experiencing a different form of awareness than is used for getting to the corner drug store and back without breaking a leg.

This other aspect or form of awarenes is devoid of any sense of personal self or content. It is simply “being,” and might be likened to the carrier wave of an electrical signal. The carrier wave is impersonal and free of content other than self awarenes, the signal is content and is equivalent to personal experience in the 3-D world. Having imperical experience of the “carrier wave” without its overlay of personal associations is profoundly significant with respect to understanding the nature of our ordinary state of awareness and its relative importance.

All I can say is that I know from my own individual experience and from both literature (ancient, including St Augustine, through modern,) and from friends who have similar experience, that that state of awarenes exists and is not a personal hallucination. I cannot begin to go into the profundity of Meaning and Value associated with that seemingly un-Catholic state. Suffice it to say that experiencing it constituted a discontinuity from ordinary interpretations in my life that was of irrevocablly immense significance and proportion.

This experience bears with it huge implications as to the nature of religion and redemption as well. Let us say that I know God IS, and can easily state that Jesus is the One and Only Son of God. Yet I have a radically* different understanding now of the meaning and significance of those statements than I did when I was a devout, studious, well catechized, proselytizing Catholic of the garden variety. I also have an entirely different understanding of His words and parables that hugely simplyfies matters to the point of bypassing the vast majority of argumentation I see on these fora** and is also why I reference Mark 4:33,34 in my signature.

So, what I am saying here, is that it is a wonderful intellectual excercise to speculate and argue about Biblical meanings and dogmas therefrom derived.*** It is another matter to have such an experieince as what some have had and bang their heads for years against ecclesiastical walls of incomprehension in an effort to discover a significant cognative accounting of any consistency regarding it. I finally had to go outside the Church to find it. Thank God I did. At least now Catholicism has again some meaning for me. I’m just embarrased for us as a faith that I had to go elsewhere to find out what happened to me.

I also now understand why it was said that religion is the opiate of the people. In the sense that hidebound pious “knowing” precludes investigation and learning in terms of self-knowledge, this appears to be true. No wonder they say in the East “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.” It isn’t about murder; it is about destroying our own limited preconceptions that we accept as a necessary part of growing up.
Code:
*It might be instructive to look up the etymology of that word.

**I* love *Occam's razor!

***In 1969 a barber and another man shot each other to death in the All Nations Barber Shop in Fresno CA, in a dispute over the "true meaning" of certain passages of the Bible. *San Jose News*, May 5, 1969
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top