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valueperson
Guest
Goodness gracious, Detales. 
uch:
uch:
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valueperson
Guest
Anyway, from the responses I’ve gotten thus far, I get a sense of collective ambivalence about the Fall.
The most interesting thing so far is that nobody has expressed the opinion that Adam should not have sinned.
The most interesting thing so far is that nobody has expressed the opinion that Adam should not have sinned.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
how can we regret that which we didn’t do?
who wouldn’t wish for an eden free of sin, and evil?
who doesn’t want the presence of G-d?
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valueperson
Guest
Many people in this forum, that’s who. There is talk of the felix culpa and the greatness of the sacrifice made possible by the Fall.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
well, i had a snappy reply when i just realized i dont know.
my desire for comfort says that i should be happy in an eternal eden
my desire to serve says that i should be happy that G-d is glorified in our fault.
my comfort, vs. G-ds glory hmmmmmm…
no contest, one sacrifices for those He loves, how could i do any less for the only one i love?
i vote felix culpa.
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Detales
Guest
In retrospect I often regret an inaction that would have proven the better course. Maybe I’m alone in this?
Eden in the Biblical sense may have been wonderful, if literally true. There seems to be some question about that among the non-pious. In any case, in our present state, we soeem to continually and pro actively decide even making such an Eden as we might with what’s at hand.
God is Present, want or not. One’s perception of that fact in terms of degree might actuall bear on experienceing Earth as some degree of Eden, at least in terms of relationship with God.
And back to the OP, what I would like to see in that world is an experiential agreement on a basis for a Univesal understanding of relationship with God and the unity of action that would stem from that. It has to be, regardless of the claims made for it, something more fundamental than the Church as it stands. I say that becuse there is no disagreement in the world that gravity works or that electricity functions in certain ways, or that mathematical formulas are useful in solving problems or predicting outcomes to a high degree of certainty. There *is *disagreement as to the Church and its history and its understanding of God. Somehow an Edenic world would have a practical resolution of that disparity that would be more fundamentally satisfying than “But we are right” or “you must belive.”.
Eden in the Biblical sense may have been wonderful, if literally true. There seems to be some question about that among the non-pious. In any case, in our present state, we soeem to continually and pro actively decide even making such an Eden as we might with what’s at hand.
God is Present, want or not. One’s perception of that fact in terms of degree might actuall bear on experienceing Earth as some degree of Eden, at least in terms of relationship with God.
And back to the OP, what I would like to see in that world is an experiential agreement on a basis for a Univesal understanding of relationship with God and the unity of action that would stem from that. It has to be, regardless of the claims made for it, something more fundamental than the Church as it stands. I say that becuse there is no disagreement in the world that gravity works or that electricity functions in certain ways, or that mathematical formulas are useful in solving problems or predicting outcomes to a high degree of certainty. There *is *disagreement as to the Church and its history and its understanding of God. Somehow an Edenic world would have a practical resolution of that disparity that would be more fundamentally satisfying than “But we are right” or “you must belive.”.
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Eucharisted
Guest
Adam is the head of mankind. He represents all mankind. Hence, every time we sin, we participate in Adam’s disobedience against God - in other words, every time we sin, we disobey God. So we can’t simply say, “Oh, if only Adam hadn’t sinned!” because it is our fault as well, for we sin as well.
I do not regret Adam’s fall. I love Adam, so I forgive him for what he did. And I ask God to forgive me for every sin I commit. He can forgive me - His Mercy is infinite. That is what the story of the fall of man shows: God forgave Adam and He brought a greater good out of his sin, that is, He brought out of evil a good both greater than the evil done and greater than the good which we would have inherited had Adam not sinned: the redemption of mankind.
The graces which Christ won for us by His death on the Cross are far greater than the graces which Adam had before his fall: for Adam had immortality, no suffering, and original justice, but we, because of Christ, have eternal life, a participation in the redemptive sufferings of Christ, and every gift of God’s Mercy.
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cpayne
Guest
Adam should not have sinned.
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cpayne
Guest
Neither should we.
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valueperson
Guest
Now that’s a thoughtful response. Thanks.
Do you think that for God to have made us capable of sin means that He wanted us to sin, in order for us to grow and be more able to recognize Him?
More generally, do think that God desires us to sin?
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JimG
Guest
I don’t. It is as though a master programmer was able to build a robot which was not only sentient but capable of independent thought, action, and free will. Now, you would like the robot to follow the instruction manual for its own operation, but it now has independence, and it may or may not follow the instructions. This operating system is so well designed that the robot is able even to love its creator. Or to reject him. That’s a terrible risk, but one worth taking.
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valueperson
Guest
Yeah, that’s valid. Thank you.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
no, G-d doesn’t desire us to sin.
he desires us to freely choose Him. to serve and love Him.
for that to be possible, we must have free will, to be able to reject him, to act contrary to him
otherwise he may as well have created robots
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Highwayhound
Guest
What you are telling me is that I have a cross to bear. This I do gladly and with a tip of the hat :tiphat: .
This carrying of a cross is also a very Catholic idea. If one can accept their cross gladly and with love of God the burden of that cross goes away.
JDaniel sums matters up nicely.
I have long accepted the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
God bless
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valueperson
Guest
I still am quite struck by this forum’s ambivalence about sin. The sum of the responses so far seems to be:
“Bad is sometimes good, ultimately, in a way, sort of.”
“Bad is sometimes good, ultimately, in a way, sort of.”
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Highwayhound
Guest
Only expressing my opinion here and it is one which fully recognizes sin. Sin does not have to overwhelm a person’s thoughts. Recognizing sin for what it is I have chosen to look down a different path. If I were to constantly focus my attention down the path of sin then no time or energy would be spent following God’s path of light and truth. Even if I did not travel the sinful path, but only pondered it I would still be making no progress along God’s path of truth and light.
Thus, I devote my energies to God’s path leaving the other path far back behind me.As I see matters people are generally in one of 3 places in their walk with God.
- Fear of God - do things right so He does not strike with the lightning bolts.
- Doing right because it is right - a more comfortable spot.
- Recognizing God’s love in life - here people realize they love God, but that love of God is only possible because God loves us first.
Much more could be typed, but I do dread long posts:dts:
The point being by seeking holiness (and we are all called to be holy saints) and by thinking about virtuous living I have not much time to ponder the other. In other words I am preparing my field for rain.
God bless
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JDaniel
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JDaniel
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JDaniel
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
bad is not sometimes good, but bad, when it happens, can be the impetus for outcomes that are ultimately good.
it seems you were expecting a different reaction, what did you have in mind that our reaction would be?
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