Horrible experience at Messianic Jewish cong.

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frankpetrucci83

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Quite awhile ago I rebuked one of my former friends for discouraging another person to go to a Catholic Church. I promised him that I would go to the Messianic Jewish service he always brags about if he went to a Catholic Mass.
This person in the past had been completely anti-catholic. However, I answered all of his challenges with facts and maybe even some inspirations from the Holy Spirit. (all the apologists on here know the routine) So his position went from anti-catholic to neutral about catholics to there is something wrong but i can’t put my finger on it, yet i will no longer say anything bad about the catholic church.
So anyway, I took him to confession and later to a catholic mass and all went well. He was looking for stuff to nitpick about but didn’t really find anything. So now it was time to fulfill my promise. I had seen a news article about a messianic jewish rabbi preaching in a Catholic Church, so i figured “how bad can it be”.
So I go to this place along with my wife. During the 2-hour service they did not read the bible one time. People got offended that we did not take communion but other than that everything was fine, that is, until the guest speakers showed up. They were advertising a new translation of the bible they were making and began insulting other bible translations, with one of them being catholic.
The exact criticism was that instead of translating something into a single word it would sometimes use “or” to suggest two possible words. My wife thought it was ridiculous and walked out at that point and I had to follow her. A lady attempted to stop us and told me to be open minded- I then told her how her religion formed and she wasn’t too happy. She began making wild claims like “there were 3 popes at the same time once etc”
I refuted all of her arguments before someone came and made her leave. I went outside, but after the service my friend insisted that I return. The person he was with accused me of being prideful because I felt it necessary to stand up for what was true.
I patiently told him that by arguing with an entire group of people set against me, I am not personally gaining anything. I then told him it wasn’t me they were offending, but God, and that is why I would have to speak up if anyone said anything. So I got back inside, and of all people, it was the pastor who got into it with me. I asked him who formed the bible and he said “who cares who put the bible together”.
I then told him that Paul, under inspiration of the holy spirit, quoted the septuagent translation of scripture. I also told him that Jews and Gentiles are both invited to Salvation through Jesus. He actually objected to this and used scholars as his authority. I said that the Roman Catholic Church has its own scholars, to which he replied I was brainwashed.
I then informed him that he was really the one that was brainwashed, I went home and checked my info just in case, and it turns out that i wasn’t brainwashed. I contacted my friend and pointed out errors to him that I did not bring up with the pastor. For example, they claimed all the gospel writers were Jewish even though it seems that St. Luke wasn’t.
Even if he was, it isn’t really essential to anything, so I don’t want people arguing about that. So next time I hung out with my friend, he acted as a troublemaker by betraying secrets I told him to another friend. I decided to no longer be friends with this person. I have actually dropped quite a few friends because of moral reasons like this. Any thoughts?
 
You cannot win against the Jewish version of sola scriptura. Might as well go to Seventh Day Adventist services. If pastor is made to appear wrong, he loses his congregation and his income. That is a double threat.
 
When you ask, “Any thoughts?” are you talking about the situation between you and the former friend or are you speaking about the situation concerning apologetics and the Messianic Jewish Cong?
 
The difference between that group and Catholics, is that Catholics can invite people to question and research history. I am sorry to hear about your experience, but it does remind me of how it is so important to discern which arguments will be profitable for the faith, and which will be lost on deaf ears. 😦
 
sometimes, defending the faith is a good enough reason by itself, it would be just like someone mocking Christ while he was on earth and you sticking up for Him by saying “you are mocking the true God!”

When I ask any thoughts I am not looking for anything specific…maybe someone had similiar experiences and can offer insight.

as far as the apologetic implications…messianic jews aren’t technically denominational, every congregation can believe something totally different, I went in there with an open mind, as long as they weren’t anti-catholic, which of course they were
 
po18guy said:
You cannot win against the Jewish version of sola scriptura. Might as well go to Seventh Day Adventist services. If pastor is made to appear wrong, he loses his congregation and his income. That is a double threat.
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I’m guessing “you cannot win” is a euphemism for calling these people either ignorant or malicious, b/c the truth certainly wins out over lies/heresy
 
yes, and it was legit, technically, there is nothing essentially heretical about being a messianic jew…I am assuming the rabbi who spoke in the catholic church did so to help transition Jews into the Catholic faith (which was their original purpose) and did not represent a congregation that preaches contrary to catholic doctrine, it is possible to be both Catholic and a Messianic Jew, since a Messianic Jew is not a denomination, however this also opens up the door for independent Messianic Jew congregations to basically do whatever they want
 
what puzzles me is that at the service I attended, no one there seemed to be in the process of converting from Judaism to Christianity, the pastor wasn’t Hebrew…to me personally, it made no sense
 
frankpetrucci83 said:
So now it was time to fulfill my promise. I had seen a news article about a messianic jewish rabbi preaching in a Catholic Church, so i figured “how bad can it be”. So I go to this place along with my wife. During the 2-hour service they did not read the bible one time. People got offended that we did not take communion but other than that everything was fine, that is, until the guest speakers showed up. .
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So, wait. You went to hear a “Messainic Jewish Rabbi” in a Roman Catholic Church where you were confronted by the Pastor would would, of course, be a priest?

If that’s what happened you write a letter to the Bishop. I never write letters to Bishops, but about this, I would.

When you leave and are stopped you simply keep moving and say, “I’m so sorry, my wife is feeling quite ill and I am talking her home.” You never stop moving. I’m sure this would not have been a lie.

I would get as far from these people as possible and just take up bowling if you want to make some friends. Get involved in your own parish. Just let go of all of it.
 
Irish_Polock said:
This took place in a Catholic church? :eek:
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No…from what I read.
…Quote: I had seen a news article about a messianic jewish rabbi preaching in a Catholic Church, so i figured “how bad can it be”.
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Messianic? I find it very hard to believe that a rabbi from the messianic congregation was preaching in the Catholic church, very hard to believe. I don’t know what news article you read this out of but it diffidently isn’t true…

There are many Catholics who are of Jewish descent from yearrrrrs ago and they are called Hebrew Catholics and they (also) have a website - and approved by the church because of cultural identification but they don’t act separately from the church. However, and I think, some of them perhaps have been approached (perhaps) by the Messianic congregation - and I don’t know this for sure but it wouldn’t surprise me. While I was going through my genealogy, and I wanted to know a little bit about our family’s background, I had to contact some people that were still living in the district of Brno - Moravia. I’ll tell you, it was like pulling teeth from a kid - there was South side Brno, which most of the records were record (death, marriage, birth…etc) within the Catholic church, even though you might have been Jewish, I was a little surprised but that’s who kept the records and you had to contact the area church. We still have family members who are alive, however, they didn’t travel through Czechoslovakia - as I found them elsewhere. Some have split into different directions - from the Arab territories. Most of the problems that I found was because we had changed from being Jewish to the Christian religion as some of the families were being so very cautious, and they are even more cautious from the Messianics.

What I like, is the fact of the history that I can find out but what I don’t like is that there is still that deep sentiment of anger and hatred - for someone who is beginning to do the research, I have found a lot of walls - brick walls sometimes on both ends. In all, I have come to know my own faith - and sometimes, and you might even see from this point of view, also, you really have to come to know the belief of what the Catholic church teaches. Again, read or find, search some of the Catholic base websites - or even take a class at your church - for women and those for men/or for both but find some way to either connect back and forget about what you had gone through - I really feel for your situation. The best advice is to join a group that you can talk thing out with - get other people’s opinions about viewing another congregation - or if anyone has gone, or even if they recommend it. I know that you must be searching out, but I told someone on another thread, and by experience, know the direction that you’re heading/have the tools - education/friends/loved one’s who will be their to support you and your wife because whatever you seek out - the direction should be a positive one for you both as a couple, and to strengthen your faith as a couple.

It is difficult for some, as with myself even, to hear from members who have been Catholics and that have joined some of these hate filled groups - it’s almost forcing or even numbing individuals into a corner, personally I have been through the same situation you had to face - no one gets anything out of those experiences and certainty they aren’t leading you to the correct place, spiritually.
 
Julia_Mae said:
So, wait. You went to hear a “Messainic Jewish Rabbi” in a Roman Catholic Church where you were confronted by the Pastor would would, of course, be a priest?

If that’s what happened you write a letter to the Bishop. I never write letters to Bishops, but about this, I would.

When you leave and are stopped you simply keep moving and say, “I’m so sorry, my wife is feeling quite ill and I am talking her home.” You never stop moving. I’m sure this would not have been a lie.

I would get as far from these people as possible and just take up bowling if you want to make some friends. Get involved in your own parish. Just let go of all of it.
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you may of not fully read or understood what I wrote…my experience did not happen in a catholic church, i had only went to the messianic service b/c i had read an article about a rabbi preaching in a church
 
here is what the news article says…same as link…The rabbi of the Kyiv Messianic Jewish community, Borys Hrysenko, on the invitation of Bishop Stanislav Shyrokorodiuk, preached at an evening service at St. Alexander’s Cathedral of the Roman Catholic Church in Kyiv on March 20, 2011. The unique service was held during Lent and coincided with the first day of the Biblical Jewish feast of Purim. Approximately 1,000 people were present at the service, reports our RISU correspondent, Yulia Dolmatova.

The dialogue between the Roman Catholics and Messianic Jews was started recently, when representatives of the Kyiv Messianic Jewish community participated in the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity in St. Alexander’s Cathedral on January 25, 2011. The decision to cooperate was made by both parties.

The rabbi stated: “We accept the invitation of the bishop and the senior priest as God’s blessing. We see the work of the Lord in our Catholic brethren who pray and try to make God’s prophecies about the renewal of the Body of Christ come to life not in the distant future but now.”

The sermon of Borys Hrysenko was based on Jeremiah 31:31, which says that God will make the New Testament with the House of Israel and the House of Judah and will never reject the people of Israel. According to the rabbi, “the Christian world is preparing to remember the suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross, and we must pray for His saving grace to be opened to the perishing sheep of the House of Israel as well.”

The rabbi also told about the feast of Purim and compared Queen Esther, through whom God saved His people, with today’s church. At the end of his sermon, the rabbi blessed all those present.

The moderator of the movement “Home Church” of the Kyiv and Zhytomyr Diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, Fr. Oleh Sartakov, shared his impressions of the sermon: “It is very important that this event took place: Christians were able to communicate without prejudice, face to face. Rabbi Hrysenko shared his feelings, his faith, the faith of the Jews who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Starting with the first converted Jews and up until today, many representatives of the Jewish community as well as representatives of other nations have joined the Christian Church. We must reject the stereotype that the Jewish nation carries a greater guilt than that of other people.”
 
frankpetrucci83 said:
I’m guessing “you cannot win” is a euphemism for calling these people either ignorant or malicious, b/c the truth certainly wins out over lies/heresy
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Not at all! It is just that, on their home turf, they have the home field advantage and it is very difficult to address a single issue when there are several others who disagree on numerous matters of faith. We cannot destroy a brick wall all at once, but only brick by brick. And, so it is with apologetics. Those who do it for a living highly recommend addressing single issues at a time.
 
welp, as long as I don’t fall into heresy during an apologetic defense, I consider it a win…even saying “I don’t know” to a question you really don’t know shows humility and provides an opportunity to return with the correct answer…it isn’t converting the other person that determines a “win” but rather following God’s Will, as long as you stick up for the truth and faithfully represent Christ, there is no way to lose
 
frankpetrucci83 said:
here is what the news article says…same as link…The rabbi of the Kyiv Messianic Jewish community, Borys Hrysenko, on the invitation of Bishop Stanislav Shyrokorodiuk, preached at an evening service at St. Alexander’s Cathedral of the Roman Catholic Church in Kyiv on March 20, 2011. The unique service was held during Lent and coincided with the first day of the Biblical Jewish feast of Purim. Approximately 1,000 people were present at the service, reports our RISU correspondent, Yulia Dolmatova.

The dialogue between the Roman Catholics and Messianic Jews was started recently, when representatives of the Kyiv Messianic Jewish community participated in the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity in St. Alexander’s Cathedral on January 25, 2011. The decision to cooperate was made by both parties.

The rabbi stated: “We accept the invitation of the bishop and the senior priest as God’s blessing. We see the work of the Lord in our Catholic brethren who pray and try to make God’s prophecies about the renewal of the Body of Christ come to life not in the distant future but now.”

The sermon of Borys Hrysenko was based on Jeremiah 31:31, which says that God will make the New Testament with the House of Israel and the House of Judah and will never reject the people of Israel. According to the rabbi, “the Christian world is preparing to remember the suffering of Jesus Christ on the cross, and we must pray for His saving grace to be opened to the perishing sheep of the House of Israel as well.”

The rabbi also told about the feast of Purim and compared Queen Esther, through whom God saved His people, with today’s church. At the end of his sermon, the rabbi blessed all those present.

The moderator of the movement “Home Church” of the Kyiv and Zhytomyr Diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, Fr. Oleh Sartakov, shared his impressions of the sermon: “It is very important that this event took place: Christians were able to communicate without prejudice, face to face. Rabbi Hrysenko shared his feelings, his faith, the faith of the Jews who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Starting with the first converted Jews and up until today, many representatives of the Jewish community as well as representatives of other nations have joined the Christian Church. We must reject the stereotype that the Jewish nation carries a greater guilt than that of other people.”
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Well this is a first?..I was thinking, at first read, that this was outside the norms - usually I think you have to get permission to have someone come in and preach from another congregation, how I thought - this is a big step for the Messianics. Still, I think, even with the ties between the two religions and also the call for unity, I would try to find out a little more about any congregation, before venturing.

Another article that I searched in connection with yours:

[The Difficult Path of Unity between Jews and Christians
Sant 'Anastasia, Rome, 19/2/2010

by P. Carlo Colonna sj
Let us ask the Father for the spirit of wisdom and revelation](http://www.catholicsforisrael.com/en/articles/israel-and-the-church/152)
 
frankpetrucci83 said:
welp, as long as I don’t fall into heresy during an apologetic defense, I consider it a win…even saying “I don’t know” to a question you really don’t know shows humility and provides an opportunity to return with the correct answer…it isn’t converting the other person that determines a “win” but rather following God’s Will, as long as you stick up for the truth and faithfully represent Christ, there is no way to lose
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Very true…if others can actually keep that thought in their mind.
 
Ummm… It’s true about there being three Popes at one time, though, isn’t it? Or rather, three individuals all claiming to be the Pope (obviously, only one was the true one0.
 
paperwight66 said:
Ummm… It’s true about there being three Popes at one time, though, isn’t it? Or rather, three individuals all claiming to be the Pope (obviously, only one was the true one0.
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she may have been talking about the antipopes or the pope of the coptic church, who knows, Pope is a slang term, what we are really meaning to say is the Bishop of Rome that occupies the chair of St. Peter…I am really depressed at the lack of intelligence demonstrated by people sometimes…I just don’t get it, it is really disturbing, how can people be shown the most obvious facts and still cling onto complete nonsense, I will never understand it, and not sure if i want to
 
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