Hostility toward Tradition

[LegoGE1947]

My old parish had this. They would let Jesus come out of His room for a little while, then they would put Him back swiftly. Perhaps they thought that He distracted people from the raucous showmanship of the drum-bashing band.

In the old days the religious people thought that having Jesus around was such a pain that they killed Him. He came back. I suppose they now think that locking Him in a vault is the next best solution.

I am a Catholic because I worship Jesus. I am a reasonable person but I am a madman for Jesus. If anyone disrespects Jesus it wounds me greatly. I love His flesh better than my own. Perhaps it blinds me to perspective but when people prefer to be disrespectful toward Him it makes me so frustrated I don’t know what to do with myself sometimes.

This reminds me of the recent news item about the university professor in Florida that gave his students the assignment of writing the name “Jesus” on a piece of paper and then stepping on it. Then asking them how they felt. Some of the students felt so badly that the Governor of Florida heard about it and the school is in trouble for allowing such a thing to go on.

 

[JustaServant]

I am not hostile toward Tradition.
I AM hostile to what it has become.
I was also once a Republican, but I shutter at the thought at being associated with what the party has become.
I was born in 1961 and I was a kid when all the changes came. I didn’t really understand it at the time, but I saw what it did to my parents and many of their generation (WW2). Timing is everything, and in hindsight, many of the changes were not implimented in a proper way. In fact, it was a textbook example, IMHO, of how NOT to impliment change.
I was there, and I saw what happened. They were told by fellow Catholics who obviously didn’t know what they were talking about, that the Latin Mass was now “illegal” and if they went to a TLM, they were “no longer Catholic”. If they had objections they were told figuratively, if not literally to ‘sit down and shut up’.
In the early days it was just a group of blue collar Catholics who just wanted a Latin Mass, what they grew up with. They got together, rented an abandoned chapel and got an old retired priest to say the Mass for them. They were not radicals, they just wanted a Latin Mass.
Over time the old priest passed away and that little chapel was eventually taken over by a group who had other ideas about what “traditionalism” was. They were just dissenters who wanted a fight. And they got one. I won’t bore you with the details, but it wasn’t pretty.
Me? I was a young man. threw my hands in the air, and left the Church for twenty years.
When I returned, I encountered traditionalists who were far different than the blue-collar Catholics I encountered years before.
Twenty years make quite a difference.
These trads were angry, negative, radical, given over to conspiracy theories, making horrible statements about the Pope and their fellow Catholics. It was no longer just about Latin, now it was about almost every aspect of Catholic Culture they objected to.
They reminded me a lot of fundamentalists.
So, hostile? No, never. I love the TLM and wish there was one here I could attend. I attend a reverant OF. And I am sure my parents would be happy with many things that have happened since the 1970s.
But do not mistake hositlity toward “neo-traditionalists” as hostility toward Tradition.
Proverbs 27:6 says Better are the wounds of a friend, than the deceitful kisses of an enemy.
So. you trads who think we are being hard on you, we are, but not for the reasons you think.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

There is hostility to reverence. I don’t understand why. I also don’t understand how people don’t seem to even recognize the beauty of mulch of what tradition offers. Architectural styles for example. Why is it that so many modern churches have the tabernacle off in some chapel or out of the way spot? Who really thinks the “Jesus jail” is beautiful? Who really thinks its a good idea to remove the Victim from the altar?

“Jesus jail”, that’s a new one.

From one of Br.Jay’s posts.

After Vatican II, permission was given to use the monastic custom, which was to have the tabernacle on a side chapel adjacent to the main sanctuary or in a separate space for prayer. The monks have two spaces. They celebrate mass in one space and adore the Blessed Sacrament in another. They do not blend the two. They never have for almost 1800 years. Vatican II gave permission to recover this noble and ancient custom.

I am sure those monks will be happy to know that you think their “tradition” is putting Jesus in jail.

This is exactly the kind of attitude I am referring to here
Having the tabernacle in some place other than “front & center”, is actually an older tradition.

This is the problem- most people who I encounter who identify as “traditional-Catholic” have a very narrow vision of what “tradition” really is, and if you don’t fit into their little box, well, then you’re out completely!

 

[edwest2]

It’s just precious that NOW from the Pope on down, the bishops are telling Catholics that THEY have to evangelize the world. I knew this since I was 11 years old, but it was not the message priests wanted to deliver.

When have you ever heard of a “revival” style tent meeting to get the unchurched or the separated brethren back into the fold of the true Church?

I think the US Church is still in a tailspin. It really seems that the result of Vat II was that people were lead to believe that everything should be changed and that everything will be changed, right down to eliminating kneelers in church, and putting in chairs like they have at St. Peter’s. Something that was old was passed off as something new.

Changes were made that had little to no justification, with little follow-up as to the results that they produced – as if it were all an experiment.

Did the other rites in the Church throw everything overboard like the Latin Rite did?

The changes you are talking about had no connection to Vatican II whatsoever:

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=1145

Peace,
Ed

 

[LilyM]

I am not hostile towards “tradition”. My hostility kicks in when I am told that because I do not embrace every single “tradition” of old I am “less-Catholic”.

Amen! I don’t deride anyone for preferring Latin, Gregorian chant, ornate vessels and vestments or churches where every visible surface is smothered in a profusion of finely worked gold, marble or stained glass. Why then should I be derided if I say I prefer the vernacular, some (by no means all) more modern music and art and architecture that is rich and noble without necessarily being overly fussy and ornate (and a lot of things can be the latter without being the former)?

There is hostility to reverence. I don’t understand why. I also don’t understand how people don’t seem to even recognize the beauty of mulch of what tradition offers. Architectural styles for example. Why is it that so many modern churches have the tabernacle off in some chapel or out of the way spot? Who really thinks the “Jesus jail” is beautiful? Who really thinks its a good idea to remove the Victim from the altar?

This is actually an old tradition. Most of the larger churches in Europe for example have multiple side chapels as well as the main body and altar - and the Blessed Sacrament would most of the time be housed in one of these side chapels.

There is one huge advantage to this - people can adore in the Blessed Sacrament chapel even while Mass is in progress on the main altar without the Mass impinging on their private devotions or vice versa.

 

[littlenothing]

My old parish had this. They would let Jesus come out of His room for a little while, then they would put Him back swiftly. Perhaps they thought that He distracted people from the raucous showmanship of the drum-bashing band.

In the old days the religious people thought that having Jesus around was such a pain that they killed Him. He came back. I suppose they now think that locking Him in a vault is the next best solution.

I am a Catholic because I worship Jesus. I am a reasonable person but I am a madman for Jesus. If anyone disrespects Jesus it wounds me greatly. I love His flesh better than my own. Perhaps it blinds me to perspective but when people prefer to be disrespectful toward Him it makes me so frustrated I don’t know what to do with myself sometimes.

WOW! You understand! And yes, you’re so right about this just being how it always was! Everyone haws always been putting Him away. That makes me love Him even more!

 

[edwest2]

I was an altar boy during the last years of the Latin Mass and during the early years of the vernacular Mass.

The former prepared me for the latter, so I could easily adjust. I was still dressed in a cassock and surplice – that hadn’t changed.

Sometime back, Benedict XVI was talking about the changes of Vatican II having been de-railed, by those who wanted to substitute “doing something” for “participation.”

We have seen the exodus of hundreds of thousands of religious sisters, who carried the heavy burden of teaching children the meaning of their faith. We have the result of that loss, in spades.

I"m trying to find a parish where I can attend Mass, where the people/ushers are not talking before, during, and after Mass. Something has been lost when the priest has to compete with ushers standing in the back, talking about their new cars or whatever.

What I see a lot of is ushers who not only prompt the next row to go up for communion, but are shaking hands with everyone (except me of course) who passes by – as if the symbolism of our unity in the Eucharist was not enough.

Priests just have lost control of how to teach their parish congregation. If Sunday Mass is not enough, then there should be meetings on Wednesday night, at least to bolster those who want more out of the Mass. If Baptists can have Wed. night meetings, why can’t Catholics? Why? because Catholics are weary and looking for the lowest level of commitment that seems to be required of them.

Let’s be accurate about what Pope Benedict said, this year:

ncregister.com/daily-news/benedict-and-the-second-vatican-council-calming-the-storm/

ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-media-spread-misinterpretations-of-vatican-ii/

Peace,
Ed

 

[littlenothing]

Ok, so several have mentioned that the side altar idea is actually older than what we normally think of as tradition.

I have a question. Why is it that some practices, like apparently that one, RCIA, the kiss of peace, are resurrected, as it were, from earlier centuries? So, those who like guitar Masses and don’t Latin Mass so much DO like EVEN OLDER practices?

I don’t get it. Im not trying to mock, I promise. I really want to know.

And about the monks. They also take a vow of poverty and share things in common, right? That doesn’t mean we are supposed to. I think orders have traditions that may be there for a reason that we either don’t know or can’t share. Jesus, the Victim and Priests, should remain visible and center at Mass for the majority of us. We need Him to be visible to us, not put off to the side where we can ignore Him as is too often the temptation as we live in the world.

 

[Francoist]

“Jesus jail”, that’s a new one.

From one of Br.Jay’s posts.

I am sure those monks will be happy to know that you think their “tradition” is putting Jesus in jail.

This is exactly the kind of attitude I am referring to here
Having the tabernacle in some place other than “front & center”, is actually an older tradition.

This is the problem- most people who I encounter who identify as “traditional-Catholic” have a very narrow vision of what “tradition” really is, and if you don’t fit into their little box, well, then you’re out completely!

I disagree completely with that interpretation. That is not what is going on.

 

[10thCrusader]

I am not hostile toward Tradition.
I AM hostile to what it has become.
I was also once a Republican, but I shutter at the thought at being associated with what the party has become.
I was born in 1961 and I was a kid when all the changes came. I didn’t really understand it at the time, but I saw what it did to my parents and many of their generation (WW2). Timing is everything, and in hindsight, many of the changes were not implimented in a proper way. In fact, it was a textbook example, IMHO, of how NOT to impliment change.
I was there, and I saw what happened. They were told by fellow Catholics who obviously didn’t know what they were talking about, that the Latin Mass was now “illegal” and if they went to a TLM, they were “no longer Catholic”. If they had objections they were told figuratively, if not literally to ‘sit down and shut up’.
In the early days it was just a group of blue collar Catholics who just wanted a Latin Mass, what they grew up with. They got together, rented an abandoned chapel and got an old retired priest to say the Mass for them. They were not radicals, they just wanted a Latin Mass.
Over time the old priest passed away and that little chapel was eventually taken over by a group who had other ideas about what “traditionalism” was. They were just dissenters who wanted a fight. And they got one. I won’t bore you with the details, but it wasn’t pretty.
Me? I was a young man. threw my hands in the air, and left the Church for twenty years.
When I returned, I encountered traditionalists who were far different than the blue-collar Catholics I encountered years before.
Twenty years make quite a difference.
These trads were angry, negative, radical, given over to conspiracy theories, making horrible statements about the Pope and their fellow Catholics. It was no longer just about Latin, now it was about almost every aspect of Catholic Culture they objected to.
They reminded me a lot of fundamentalists.
So, hostile? No, never. I love the TLM and wish there was one here I could attend. I attend a reverant OF. And I am sure my parents would be happy with many things that have happened since the 1970s.
But do not mistake hositlity toward “neo-traditionalists” as hostility toward Tradition.
Proverbs 27:6 says Better are the wounds of a friend, than the deceitful kisses of an enemy.
So. you trads who think we are being hard on you, we are, but not for the reasons you think.

The TLM group in your area sounds quite different from the TLM parish where I attend in Seattle, and also in the TLM parish where I used to attend in Pittsburgh. Everyone was really nice, if perhaps a little quiet and reserved. I don’t think you can make such generalities about those who attend the TLM in other locations.

The things you describe almost sound like the usual round of accusations thrown around by those who are hostile to the TLM. Perhaps the TLM community in your locality is the source of those generalizations that are commonly made about the TLM communities. Where is your TLM community located? I would really like to know who is giving this sort of impression about those who attend the Latin Mass?

 

[LilyM]

Ok, so several have mentioned that the side altar idea is actually older than what we normally think of as tradition.

I have a question. Why is it that some practices, like apparently that one, RCIA, the kiss of peace, are resurrected, as it were, from earlier centuries? So, those who like guitar Masses and don’t Latin Mass so much DO like EVEN OLDER practices?

I don’t get it. Im not trying to mock, I promise. I really want to know.

And about the monks. They also take a vow of poverty and share things in common, right? That doesn’t mean we are supposed to. I think orders have traditions that may be there for a reason that we either don’t know or can’t share. Jesus, the Victim and Priests, should remain visible and center at Mass for the majority of us. We need Him to be visible to us, not put off to the side where we can ignore Him as is too often the temptation as we live in the world.

Because the age of a traditional practice has nothing to do with whether it is appropriate or helpful or resonates in a particular time and place, or for that matter with a particular person.

Jesus talked about going into the storeroom and bringing out ‘treasures both old and new’ as well as putting new wine into new wineskins rather than old ones.

So there is room, at least sometimes, for old and new (or old and older ) to both be available for those who prefer each.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Yes, I believe that many of us who may like (or have no opinion) about “guitar Masses”, all vernacular Masses, simple, more austere surroundings, vestments & sacred vessels, can and do embrace many traditions. That is the beauty of the Catholic Chruch, there are many spiritualities, each with their own charisms, that have helped to form us over the years. They had a very big influence, some more than others, and then it became “because we’ve always done it this way”. I mean, if your really think about it, isn’t that how “traditions” start anyway? (Cue Tevye! )

Ok, so several have mentioned that the side altar idea is actually older than what we normally think of as tradition.

I have a question. Why is it that some practices, like apparently that one, RCIA, the kiss of peace, are resurrected, as it were, from earlier centuries? So, those who like guitar Masses and don’t Latin Mass so much DO like EVEN OLDER practices?

I don’t get it. Im not trying to mock, I promise. I really want to know.

And about the monks. They also take a vow of poverty and share things in common, right? That doesn’t mean we are supposed to. I think orders have traditions that may be there for a reason that we either don’t know or can’t share. Jesus, the Victim and Priests, should remain visible and center at Mass for the majority of us. We need Him to be visible to us, not put off to the side where we can ignore Him as is too often the temptation as we live in the world.

 

[LightBound]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10426183&postcount=52

 

[LilyM]

Yes, I believe that many of us who may like (or have no opinion) about “guitar Masses”, all vernacular Masses, simple, more austere surroundings, vestments & sacred vessels, can and do embrace many traditions. That is the beauty of the Catholic Chruch, there are many spiritualities, each with their own charisms, that have helped to form us over the years. They had a very big influence, some more than others, and then it became “because we’ve always done it this way”. I mean, if your really think about it, isn’t that how “traditions” start anyway? (Cue Tevye! )

Haha - I often start hearing that song in my head when these debates come up

 

[ljwahn]

As far as I am concerned, Liturgical music has gone over a cliff. Our music person stands on a bench and waves her arm to the music like Mitch Miller’s sing along folks. She sings opera and is so loud it is maddening and wonders why no one sings. About the only thing traditional is when we have to sing Happy Birthday at the end of every Mass.

 

[littlenothing]

Ok, im typing on my phone so maybe I shoudnt get into what I can’t back up, but im going to anyway. The descriptions of the Mass in Revelation and some places in the old testament make sense. There’s incense, singing “holy, holy, holly”. I don’t relive traditions is something “we’ve always done” and chats the sum of it. Then I guess sinning would be,“tradition” as well. There are things that endure because they SHOULD endure. You can like something all you want, or dislike it, but that doesn’t mean it should or should not belong in the Mass.

But isn’t it worse to want to embrace change for the sake of change? Isn’t that what modernity has wrought? Some things need to change, sure, but I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater, as usual, in our rush for change, causing us to embrace and even bring back things that maybe shouldn’t be embraced or brought back. Should we bring back adults only baptism? Just because something is old or was done in the first century, to me, doesn’t define its place in Tradition.

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

I know a whole family who almost left the church because of guitar Masses. Wellenough should have been leftalone!

 

[LilyM]

Ok, im typing on my phone so maybe I shoudnt get into what I can’t back up, but im going to anyway. The descriptions of the Mass in Revelation and some places in the old testament make sense. There’s incense, singing “holy, holy, holly”. I don’t relive traditions is something “we’ve always done” and chats the sum of it. Then I guess sinning would be,“tradition” as well. There are things that endure because they SHOULD endure. You can like something all you want, or dislike it, but that doesn’t mean it should or should not belong in the Mass.

But isn’t it worse to want to embrace change for the sake of change? Isn’t that what modernity has wrought? Some things need to change, sure, but I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater, as usual, in our rush for change, causing us to embrace and even bring back things that maybe shouldn’t be embraced or brought back. Should we bring back adults only baptism? Just because something is old or was done in the first century, to me, doesn’t define its place in Tradition.

Who says modern changes are any more done for their own sake than the older ones (which were all novelties at some point) that have now become “tradition”?

I mean who is to say Pope St Gregory didn’t have exactly the same attitudes, motives and feelings in composing his chants that Marty Haugen or David Haas, whose music gets such bad press? It’s not like Gregory kept detailed journals about the process, nor is he still alive to be asked.

 

[LilyM]

I know a whole family who almost left the church because of guitar Masses. Wellenough should have been leftalone!

And I know many a convert who probably wouldn’t have entered if everything had been in Latin and the only music had been chant. Doesn’t mean they haven’t developed an appreciation for such things, just that initially they would not have found them attractive at all.

Go figure.

 

[ProVobis]

As far as I am concerned, Liturgical music has gone over a cliff. Our music person stands on a bench and waves her arm to the music like Mitch Miller’s sing along folks. She sings opera and is so loud it is maddening and wonders why no one sings. About the only thing traditional is when we have to sing Happy Birthday at the end of every Mass.

In Spanish Masses you have to clap to the beat as well. I believe that’s traditional too.