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Hot off the Press..A new look at homosexuality and Catholic Teaching?
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jdavidparrott
Guest
The timing on this is perfect. Thanks for the link. 
We are having a problem here in my diocese on this very topic that involves the bishop no less 
We are having a problem here in my diocese on this very topic that involves the bishop no less
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Lynn-D
Guest
Although not a homosexual I do often wonder why if a choice one would not choose a life in tune with family and church rather than one that seems to invite difficulty?
That said I do find myself in disagreement with a quote in the book:
"Some have said ‘I was born this way.’ Some have gone so far as to say, ‘God made me this way.’ God cannot and will not create contrary to His Natural Law. God is a God of reason and He does nothing contrary to reason. Conclusion, God did not create homosexuality."
I find this statement in contradiction to all I was taught in Catholic School. How dare we suppose what is and is not God’s reason or even attach God’s Law to natural reason. God gives us the means to overcome and deal with some of the difficulties of health and circumstance given us at birth. Yes, God has His reasons but man does not and can not fully understand those reasons now can he?
Many of us offer the pains of birth and life up in offering for those in purgatory. I do! We are not born perfect beings nor do we have intimate knowledge of what is “Natural Law”. God will give us the full explation of his mysteries when he wishes to do so. I expect not until we are in His presense.
I must be honest and wonder why so many who profess love for God seem to look in the bible for reasons to condemn others.
I will await His reply to my questions that surely will begin with: WHY???
Lynn=D
That said I do find myself in disagreement with a quote in the book:
"Some have said ‘I was born this way.’ Some have gone so far as to say, ‘God made me this way.’ God cannot and will not create contrary to His Natural Law. God is a God of reason and He does nothing contrary to reason. Conclusion, God did not create homosexuality."
I find this statement in contradiction to all I was taught in Catholic School. How dare we suppose what is and is not God’s reason or even attach God’s Law to natural reason. God gives us the means to overcome and deal with some of the difficulties of health and circumstance given us at birth. Yes, God has His reasons but man does not and can not fully understand those reasons now can he?
Many of us offer the pains of birth and life up in offering for those in purgatory. I do! We are not born perfect beings nor do we have intimate knowledge of what is “Natural Law”. God will give us the full explation of his mysteries when he wishes to do so. I expect not until we are in His presense.
I must be honest and wonder why so many who profess love for God seem to look in the bible for reasons to condemn others.
I will await His reply to my questions that surely will begin with: WHY???
Lynn=D
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cardenio
Guest
I don’t know this guy, but he’s from my diocese. On the right side of the except page, I see Get Off My Honor. Both my brothers are Eagle Scouts: this book comes highly recommended.
I’ve always compared homosexuality to ADHD - it’s harder to do what’s right, but you still have to do what’s right. But, having no experience of my own, I’m not sure which of us is correct here. Probably him; I just invented my analogy sometime last year because it seemed right; I hadn’t done any research.
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Other_Eric
Guest
If one cannot both have same-sex attractions and be chaste, does this not make heterosexuality the necessary prerequisite for Salvation? If I read this correctly, the individual who experiences same-sex attractions lives in a constant state of sin even if these temptations are never acted upon. This turns every reception of the Eucharist by such a person into a damnable blasphemy and each absolution in the confessional into a spiritually irrelevant ritual. It also turns Courage, the Church’s own approved ministry to those with same-sex attractions and which does not require orientation conversion, into one of the biggest frauds ever perpetrated upon the faithful. The Hierarchy herself would be guilty of, or at least complicit in, the sin of scandal.
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felra
Guest
Other Eric:
Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life. As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God’s personal call to them, they will be able to celebrate the Sacrament of Penance more faithfully and receive the Lord’s grace so freely offered there in order to convert their lives more fully to his Way.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...faith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
This is what the Church has authoritatively stated:
- What, then, are homosexual persons to do who seek to follow the Lord? Fundamentally, they are called to enact the will of God in their life by joining whatever sufferings and difficulties they experience in virtue of their condition to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross. That Cross, for the believer, is a fruitful sacrifice since from that death come life and redemption. While any call to carry the cross or to understand a Christian’s suffering in this way will predictably be met with bitter ridicule by some, it should be remembered that this is the way to eternal life for all who follow Christ.
Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life. As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God’s personal call to them, they will be able to celebrate the Sacrament of Penance more faithfully and receive the Lord’s grace so freely offered there in order to convert their lives more fully to his Way.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...faith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi felra!
None of what you quote answers the central question raised by this book:
The homosexual may be called to chastity, but it appears that this book argues that he cannot follow this calling until he no longer experiences same-sex attraction. Moreover, let’s face it, there is no licit sacrifice involved in the homosexual condition any more than I make a sacrifice by choosing not to go out and commit mass murder. Any struggle encountered by such an individual regarding his own sexuality is merely a product of his own pathologically narcissistic victim mentality. Anyone who has read NARTH’s studies cannot deny this.
The conclusion to make is simple. There is no salvation for one who faces this temptation. The act of uniting to Christ’s sacrifice and enjoying the benefits thereof is the act of being completely, free from any hint of this disorder.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Other Eric:
So if a person who suffers from SSA has any temptation crossing his or her mind, they’re damned?
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YinYangMom
Guest
Since when is ‘disordered’ = ‘evil’?
The Catholic Church does not toss that word around lightly and in what I’ve read in the CCC regarding homosexuality the word ‘evil’ is usually associated with the act not the inclination toward.
The Catholic Church does not toss that word around lightly and in what I’ve read in the CCC regarding homosexuality the word ‘evil’ is usually associated with the act not the inclination toward.
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adopted_heir
Guest
Wow! I have to heartily disagree with Eric (I think). Namely because temptation itself is never a sin, only giving in to the temptation. After all, we know from Scripture that our Lord Jesus was tempted, yet did not sin. The random thoughts that pop into your head are not damning, but entertaining impure or evil thoughts instead of turning your mind somewhere more appropriate is a sin. The same with the homosexual inclination: the feeling itself isn’t immoral, but it becomes immoral when one panders to it, entertains it, or acts upon it.
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Other_Eric
Guest
adopted heir said:
Hi adopted heir!
You make the mistake of simply equating same-sex attraction to a temptation.
Dr. Cameron of the Family Research Institute has discovered that this condition by the individual and thatchosen
Dr. Cameron identifies this condition as one that does not simply exist in a vacuum. Rather, it comes about because of an initial rejection of society and, by extension God. This void is filled instead with a laser-like focus on self. In this, Dr. Cameron is supported by none other than St. Paul:
We therefore see that the temptation is itself merely a symptom of a much deeper, more serious issue. The presence of this temptation indicates an ongoing rejection of God in favor of self. It is hard to come up with a more perfect example of obstinacy in sin (a sin against the Holy Spirit) than this.
Moreover the temptation in this regard is sinful even if not acted upon. :
It is also important point out that homosexuality is not simply interchangeable with even heterosexual lust of the basest variety. As St. Thomas Aquinas points out:
Homosexuality is a mental and spiritual disorder of the most serious gravity. The Code of Cannon Law recognizes this:
It is this canon under which annulment tribunals discontinue the attempted opposite-sex marriage of one who is found to have any tendency towards homosexuality, even if not predominant.
It is also important to understand that one of the fundamental reasons that a man who experiences same-sex attraction will never be appropriate for the priesthood is that his condition renders him unable to offer the sacrifice of the Mass in persona Christi as a man. So, we see that the condition corrupts his very gender. Because constant Church teaching has only allowed for two genders, male and female, and because the homosexual can be demonstrated not to be a real man we begin to see that the condition also corrupts his humanity to a degree at which redemption becomes impossible.
It is not a mistake that the Church has canonized all manner of vermin into heaven save for those who struggled with this temptation. The homosexual seeks salvation in vain. The first step on the path to Christ is indisputably, a heterosexual orientation.
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Flopfoot
Guest
This is what the CCC says.
**2357 **Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
**2359 **Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
**2357 **Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
**2359 **Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
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Other_Eric
Guest
Homosexuals may be called to chastity, but anyone who has read the statistics compiled by NARTH will have to acknowledge that this is a virtue that they will never be capable of as long as they remain subject to unnatural temptations of the flesh.
It is not enough to both have same-sex attractions and to be chaste, since the two contradict each other. In this it is like trying to come up with a whitish shade of black. In the end you have a gray mess.
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Flopfoot
Guest
Um? Heterosexuals are also called to be chaste, and for all but those in married life, this means no sex at all, just like for homosexuals. Also, just like homosexuals, heterosexual people have desires to do something that is wrong for them at that time which some of them give in to.
I think the main reason for the statistic is that there are a greater proportion of homosexuals who aren’t Catholic (or some other religion which promotes chastity) since they feel like they don’t have a place in those churches. Hence they see nothing wrong with it.
Just like single people in the Church, I believe that homosexuals can resist temptations, and manage to live a chaste life, if they really want to do what God wants of them. Are we to believe that the Holy Spirit can’t enter a homosexual person to give them fortitude and courage?
EDIT - I never thought that I’d be defending homosexuals one day… I was always quite against them (epsecially the way that they make fun of the Church in their ‘Mardi Gras’, which I still believe is wrong). Oh well, if the church teaches that they’re called to chastity then that’s what I’m gonna teach.
I think the main reason for the statistic is that there are a greater proportion of homosexuals who aren’t Catholic (or some other religion which promotes chastity) since they feel like they don’t have a place in those churches. Hence they see nothing wrong with it.
Just like single people in the Church, I believe that homosexuals can resist temptations, and manage to live a chaste life, if they really want to do what God wants of them. Are we to believe that the Holy Spirit can’t enter a homosexual person to give them fortitude and courage?
EDIT - I never thought that I’d be defending homosexuals one day… I was always quite against them (epsecially the way that they make fun of the Church in their ‘Mardi Gras’, which I still believe is wrong). Oh well, if the church teaches that they’re called to chastity then that’s what I’m gonna teach.
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Other_Eric
Guest
The decision of a heterosexually-oriented man or women not to have sex is of an entirely different order then this hypothetical notion that a homosexual could do the same. In the former case, the heterosexual is sacrificing the good of a family for the sake of following Christ. It is a sacrifice that constitutes a genuine penance. In the later case, the homosexual only gives up that which is an intrinsic evil. As I said before, the “harsh” nature of this supposed sacrifice is entirely an illusory product of his diseased mentality. The heterosexual desires family and intimacy, the homosexual desires only sexual gratification. This is the distinction that must be understood before shallow comparisons between heterosexuals and homosexuals can be made.
This is a bit of a moot point as the statistics demonstrate that the homosexual is incapable of chastity. This is an intrinsic component of his psychology. Further, as the scandals in the priesthood demonstrate, simply being a member of a religion that teaches chastity does not prevent the disorder from manifesting itself in a destructive fashion.
Of course the Holy Spirit is capable of entering a homosexual and granting him strength and courage but it is important to understand that He must be invited. The Spirit will not short circuit the free will of the homosexual to remain that way. The individual in question has made his decision and we can look at the rampant sexual assault, rampant psychosis, violence and sheer irrational anger of the gay community as a preview of the society of Hell as the individual progressively loses more and more of his own humanity.
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Riley259
Guest
They can via grace and motivation. A prime example is David Morrision, the author of Beyond Gay. He, along with other earnest members of the group Courage, have been successful at resisting same-sexual temptations. Just like with pornography addiction, although difficult, it is possible to remain chaste.
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fix
Guest
God has an ordaining will and a permitting will. He does not ordain things contrary to the natural moral law. He may permit it, because of things like our fallen nature, but He does not ordain it.The inclination toward SSA is objectively disordered because it is not ordered toward good.
As for knowing the natural law we can see from the CCC:
1958 The natural law is *immutable *and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies
1960 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known "by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error."12 The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.
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fix
Guest
Disordered intends a thing is not ordered toward good.
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BlindSheep
Guest
Other Eric is promoting heresy. Rome has spoken; homosexuals can be chaste, and it is not their impulses but rather their actions which are sins. Mortal sin has to be deliberate; other Eric’s insistence that SSA is deliberate has no basis in science or church teaching. It is my impression that this self-proclaimed “lapsed Catholic” is seeking to rationalize his own distaste for people who suffer from SSA; he dehumanizes them, tells untruths about them (it is possible for them to be chaste, I think we all know examples of people who disprove his assertion), and mocks their struggle against sin. Such an attitude is unworthy of a Christian, and the Church rightly denounces it.
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fix
Guest
This is an interesting point and needs to be carefully dissected.
As far as I am aware the Church has not said She knows the etiology of SSA and does not claim to be an expert in science.
The CC says the genesis of it is largely unexplained. I can’t see how the work quoted by Cameron is in conflict with this teaching?
Here is some of what he wrote:
We would argue that these same mechanisms also account for most of those who take up smoking, drug abuse, or other common ‘bad habits. familyresearchinst.org/FRR_02_07.html
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