Hot off the Press..A new look at homosexuality and Catholic Teaching?

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It says the homosexual person has fundamental freedom. That is exactly my point. He is free to stop sinning. He may cooperate with God’s grace. Your speculation is not fact and certainly I have seen no proof the Church agrees with you only you attempting to conjure up a theory.
Well, you may obfuscate all you wish. That does not change the fact that the homosexuals freedom remains dependant upon his conversion from evil, which means fully-functioning heterosexuality. If still homosexual then he has lost his salvation and will never see the face of God.
 
Other Eric:
Yes, and as you’ll note when you go back to those quotations, I’ve replied to many of them to correct the overly benign and errant interpretation of the source documents.
What you’ve done is analogous to taking a map of Maine and insisting that it’s a map of Texas.
 
Other Eric:
Yes, and as you’ll note when you go back to those quotations, I’ve replied to many of them to correct the overly benign and errant interpretation of the source documents.
Let’s just say that I don’t think anyone here thinks your “magisterium of one” parsing and reinterpreting has any merits.
 
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Orionthehunter:
Let’s just say that I don’t think anyone here thinks your “magisterium of one” parsing and reinterpreting has any merits.
I’m not overly concerned with whatever popularity I might gain from being a member on this board. I know what the truth is and I stand with the Church in proclaiming it.
 
Other Eric:
Merely because something is repeated over and over again by a great multitude does not make it true. I have now asked twice for citations to this phantom teaching of the Church and I have supported my own arguments with citations from Scripture, the Church Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, the Catechism and the pronouncements of the Holy See. I have yet to see anything similar coming from those who disagree with me other than a self-satisfied assurance that they are right and I am wrong.
Merely because something is repeated over and over again by one person also does not make it true.:banghead:

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God.”
 
JKirkLVNV said:

We must remember that an apologist, though trained to answer questions regarding the faith, is not authoritative. We musn’t abdicate our responsibility as Christians to critically examine the writings of those who claim to know better than us. Let’s go through Ms. Arnold’s response:

Michelle Arnold said:
[T]
he Church teaches that although homosexual orientation is not necessarily chosen or desired and although it is not sinful in and of itself . . .

Nowhere does the Church teach that the orientation isn’t chosen. The definitive English version of the Catechism removed the language that said it was. This implies that the condition is chosen and that it therefore meets all three prongs for mortal sin even before it is acted upon.
Michelle Arnold:
. . . it is a grave disorder of human sexuality because it involves the temptation to sexual activity with a person of one’s own sex when God created human beings to be heterosexual (**CCC **2358). Actually acting upon a homosexual orientation by engaging in homosexual activity is grave matter (**CCC **2357). When done in combination with full knowledge and full and free consent of the will, it becomes a mortal sin (**CCC 1857, **1859).
That the homosexual condition is a grave disorder is one thing that we can agree upon. However, limiting the sinful character to the act is too benign an interpretation of Catholic teaching. I will not make exceptions to the character of mortal sin for the homosexual to excuse his own choice to be that way.

Michelle Arnold said:
[T]
he Church does not require homosexually-oriented people to seek . . . re-orientation to heterosexuality. All that the Church requires is that those people who struggle with homosexual temptations do not commit homosexual acts.

This is a perverse interpretation of Church teaching. In no other context does the Church excuse a man from doing what is right and ordering his mind and personal nature to conform with the ultimate truth because it is difficult. The Church requires the full assent of the will and the mind to the natural order instituted by the Creator. This means an unreserved heterosexuality. To say otherwise is just an attempt to lower the bar for the homosexual in the interests of “diversity.”
Michelle Arnold:
Homosexuals are called to the same chastity required of heterosexual single people.
Let’s not equate the hypothetical abstinence of a homosexual to a similar lifestyle as lived by a heterosexual. The heterosexual, in choosing to remain single, gives up the good of the companionship of a wife and family for the good of God. The homosexual attempting to do the same makes no such sacrifice. If the abstinence of the homosexual is carried out for his entire life (however improbably) then he stands before God empty-handed.
Michelle Arnold:
For men and women with homosexual orientations who are interested in learning how to live chastely, I recommend the Catholic apostolate Courage.
To advise anyone towards Courage is dubious counsel. It is an organization that encourages same-sex attracted men and women to form personal and intimate relations with each other under the guise of doing so without acting out sexually. It makes a mockery out of avoiding the near occasion of sin. The organization’s founder, Father John Harvey, is one of those individuals who simply does not take the sexual scandal of the Church seriously and is willing to make excuses for homosexuals who wish to be ordained in defiance of the Church’s rule promulgated by John XXIII

That 2 out of 3 recommended reading materials she refers to are written by David Morrison is another cause for concern. The man openly admits to experiencing what he refers to as “a degree of same-sex attraction” and still chooses to live with his “former” same-sex partner. He has dissented from the Church in the matter over Terri Schiavo and he pretends to act as a “godfather” to a young, impressionable child. This man is not an appropriate ambassador for the Church and its teachings.

As can be seen, all of the interpretations made and recommendations given are questionable at best.
 
Other Eric:
We must remember that an apologist, though trained to answer questions regarding the faith, is not authoritative. We musn’t abdicate our responsibility as Christians to critically examine the writings of those who claim to know better than us. Let’s go through Ms. Arnold’s response:
Nowhere does the Church teach that the orientation isn’t chosen. The definitive English version of the Catechism removed the language that said it was. This implies that the condition is chosen and that it therefore meets all three prongs for mortal sin even before it is acted upon.That the homosexual condition is a grave disorder is one thing that we can agree upon. However, limiting the sinful character to the act is too benign an interpretation of Catholic teaching. I will not make exceptions to the character of mortal sin for the homosexual to excuse his own choice to be that way.This is a perverse interpretation of Church teaching. In no other context does the Church excuse a man from doing what is right and ordering his mind and personal nature to conform with the ultimate truth because it is difficult. The Church requires the full assent of the will and the mind to the natural order instituted by the Creator. This means an unreserved heterosexuality. To say otherwise is just an attempt to lower the bar for the homosexual in the interests of "diversity."Let’s not equate the hypothetical abstinence of a homosexual to a similar lifestyle as lived by a heterosexual. The heterosexual, in choosing to remain single, gives up the good of the companionship of a wife and family for the good of God. The homosexual attempting to do the same makes no such sacrifice. If the abstinence of the homosexual is carried out for his entire life (however improbably) then he stands before God empty-handed.To advise anyone towards Courage is dubious counsel. It is an organization that encourages same-sex attracted men and women to form personal and intimate relations with each other under the guise of doing so without acting out sexually. It makes a mockery out of avoiding the near occasion of sin. The organization’s founder, Father John Harvey, is one of those individuals who simply does not take the sexual scandal of the Church seriously and is willing to make excuses for homosexuals who wish to be ordained in defiance of the Church’s rule promulgated by John XXIII

That 2 out of 3 recommended reading materials she refers to are written by David Morrison is another cause for concern. The man openly admits to experiencing what he refers to as “a degree of same-sex attraction” and still chooses to live with his “former” same-sex partner. He has dissented from the Church in the matter over Terri Schiavo and he pretends to act as a “godfather” to a young, impressionable child. This man is not an appropriate ambassador for the Church and its teachings.

As can be seen, all of the interpretations made and recommendations given are questionable at best.

The late, great Pope John Paul II, gave his word of support to the group Courage. Are you questioning his loyalty to Catholic teaching? Should all men who haven’t gotten married yet have to live by themselves for fear of accusations that they are in a sexual relationship? And if someone chose David to be a godfather it is because they trust him to be a good standin someday. Yours is not to judge their situation.
 
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goofyjim:
The late, great Pope John Paul II, gave his word of support to the group Courage. Are you questioning his loyalty to Catholic teaching? Should all men who haven’t gotten married yet have to live by themselves for fear of accusations that they are in a sexual relationship? And if someone chose David to be a godfather it is because they trust him to be a good standin someday. Yours is not to judge their situation.
I think that in John Paul’s case it may be reasonable to ask whether or not he realized the gravity of the homosexual condition for what it is. This would explain his slow response to the sexual scandal in the Church and his decision to protect Cardinal Law from a criminal indictment. In any event, I see no reason why this should not be afforded the same level of authority as any number of erroneous, personal opinions espoused by the popes.

Further, I see no reason why it would be out of line to question the judgment of parents who allow the child entrusted by God to their protection the association of questionable people. Would we have the same disagreement if the man in question was a convicted pedophile? I think not.
 
Other Eric:
Nowhere does the Church teach that the orientation isn’t chosen. The definitive English version of the Catechism removed the language that said it was.
Please read my response more carefully, Eric. I said that the orientation is *“not necessarily chosen or desired.” *That word “necessarily” is an important qualifier. Certainly, it is possible that someone could choose to experiment with homosexual activity, become addicted to it, and develop an orientation, much like an alcoholic can become an alcoholic in a similar manner. But there is a difference between acknowledging a theoretical possibility and emphasizing that for the vast majority of homosexuals, such a theoretical possibility does not match their experience. The second edition of the Catechism, to which you refer states:
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial (CCC 2358, 2nd edition).
I submit that this language implies that the orientation is, as I said originally, “not necessarily chosen or desired.”

Other Eric said:
[L]
imiting the sinful character to the act is too benign an interpretation of Catholic teaching. I will not make exceptions to the character of mortal sin for the homosexual to excuse his own choice to be that way. This is a perverse interpretation of Church teaching. In no other context does the Church excuse a man from doing what is right and ordering his mind and personal nature to conform with the ultimate truth because it is difficult. The Church requires the full assent of the will and the mind to the natural order instituted by the Creator. This means an unreserved heterosexuality. To say otherwise is just an attempt to lower the bar for the homosexual in the interests of “diversity.”

It is a matter of Catholic moral theology that there is a difference between feelings and the will. Because of concupiscence, which the Church specifically states is not “in itself an offense” (CCC 2515, 2nd edition), a man often does not choose the desire or inclination toward sin (any sin). He may be assaulted by it through the desires of the flesh, but does not sin unless he gives consent of the will to it. That is why a homosexual orientation is not necessarily sinful. It is a particular objective disorder that inclines a man to desire homosexual activity, but if he does not commit that activity then he is not guilty of that sin.

Analogously, let’s say that a person is tempted to lying or stealing. If he resists the temptation to lie or to steal, could we justly say that person has sinned? Should we call that person a liar or a thief? In like manner, a person who resists homosexual temptations may be inclined to be tempted by homosexual desire, but he has not committed sin (and really shouldn’t be called a homosexual, but that is another argument for another day).
Other Eric:
To advise anyone towards Courage is dubious counsel. It is an organization that encourages same-sex attracted men and women to form personal and intimate relations with each other under the guise of doing so without acting out sexually. It makes a mockery out of avoiding the near occasion of sin.
Setting aside the personal accusations against the individuals you named since I do not have the time to research the accusations or the means to contact those individuals to ask for their side of the story, I’ll just focus on your concern about Courage. Courage has been endorsed by the Pontifical Council for the Family. Alfonso Cardinal Lopez Trujillo stated:
This Pontifical Council for the Family supports the organization called Courage which was founded by Father John Harvey, OSFS, for helping homosexual persons to live in accordance with the laws of God and the teaching of his Church.
If the organization is endorsed by a Vatican pontifical council, then I believe it to be safe to recommend the organization to men and women struggling with same-sex attraction.
 
Notice:

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.
 
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