Hot off the Press..A new look at homosexuality and Catholic Teaching?

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Other Eric:
We are, however, talking about an act that is a psychotic compulsion for the individual. Certainly he can’t be said to have the same use of his free will in this matter as a normal man.
If he is authentically “psychotic” then his culpability is diminished or eliminated.
Rather, looking at the psychological profile we can discern confidently that the homosexual has exchanged his own free will for the hedonism of the moment.
He can “exchange” it back if he chooses to.
In his arrogance, the homosexual has been given over to his sins and has rejected his own free will.
No, he has given in to temptations and he can, through God’s grace, return to a state of sanctifying grace.
As a result his salvation is lost and he will never see the face of God.
He will only lose it if he freely chooses that way and refuses to repent.
 
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goofyjim:
Anyone, until he dies, can turn from his sins. Even the sin of abortion can be forgiven in the confessional. I agree that the mistake of the homosexual is defining himself as such. But this is not a fixed state and therefore redemption is still possible. Let us not rule out the mercy of God. There is only one unforgivable sin that Jesus mentioned. I don’t think this one was it.
The unforgivable sin mentioned by Christ was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Again I say to you that the root cause of the homosexual condition is exactly this blasphemy. God’s mercy does not extend to those who refuse it. Thus, the homosexual’s salvation is lost to him and he will never see the face of God.
 
Other Eric:
The unforgivable sin mentioned by Christ was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Again I say to you that the root cause of the homosexual condition is exactly this blasphemy. God’s mercy does not extend to those who refuse it. Thus, the homosexual’s salvation is lost to him and he will never see the face of God.
Are you forgetting St. Paul and the Corinthians? His remarks to the homosexuals in the community were “and such were some of you”. Now if Paul himself held forth the possibility of change from this so-called condition why are you denying it to them? :banghead:
 
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fix:
If he is authentically “psychotic” then his culpability is diminished or eliminated.

He can “exchange” it back if he chooses to.

No, he has given in to temptations and he can, through God’s grace, return to a state of sanctifying grace.

He will only lose it if he freely chooses that way and refuses to repent.
Again, the Church has expressly not allowed for the diminishment of culpability in the context of homosexuality. For myself, I will submit to the Church’s authority in this matter. As for these appeals to the power and mercy of God and how through this anything can be accomplished, I grow tired of repeating myself. One could use this formula to make an argument that even Satan can be saved. The fact remains that the homosexual’s psychological condition keeps him in a state of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and he will always refuse whatever graces God has to give. His salvation is lost to him and he will never see the face of God.
 
Other Eric:
Again, the Church has expressly not allowed for the diminishment of culpability in the context of homosexuality. For myself, I will submit to the Church’s authority in this matter. As for these appeals to the power and mercy of God and how through this anything can be accomplished, I grow tired of repeating myself. One could use this formula to make an argument that even Satan can be saved. The fact remains that the homosexual’s psychological condition keeps him in a state of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and he will always refuse whatever graces God has to give. His salvation is lost to him and he will never see the face of God.
You offer no proof and even contradict Church documents. You post the documents, interpret them as you desire and then claim that as proof.
 
Other Eric:
The fact remains that the homosexual’s psychological condition keeps him in a state of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and he will always refuse whatever graces God has to give. His salvation is lost to him and he will never see the face of God.
This is completely contrary to the Catechism. You’ve adopted an extreme view which isn’t sanctioned by the Church. I very much doubt this book will retain an imprimatur (not that you can’t get one fairly easy, look at what liberal bishops have given imprimaturs to!) or stand up the scrutinty by the Holy See.
 
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fix:
You offer no proof and even contradict Church documents. You post the documents, interpret them as you desire and then claim that as proof.
I post the documents, interperet them in the light of Tradition and science and then make my argument. It seems to me your arguments consist of nothing other than unsupported denials.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
This is completely contrary to the Catechism. You’ve adopted an extreme view which isn’t sanctioned by the Church. I very much doubt this book will retain an imprimatur (not that you can’t get one fairly easy, look at what liberal bishops have given imprimaturs to!) or stand up the scrutinty by the Holy See.
This seems to be the common refrain of people who disagree with me. They constantly cite the Catechism and Church teaching but no one has yet come up with one authoritative citation. I submit this is because there is no such citation and that claims that there exists one come from the apologists of a phantom church not based on scripture, Tradition or reality.
 
Other Eric:
I post the documents, interperet them in the light of Tradition and science and then make my argument. It seems to me your arguments consist of nothing other than unsupported denials.
But you come to the wrong conclusion…entirely the opposite of the Church’s teaching. Homosexuals who are chaste/celibate can unite their sufferings as a result of their condition to the suffering of Christ and attain holiness. That’s clear from the Catechism. The sin against the Holy Spirit is a rejection of the witness that the Holy Spirit gives to Jesus, ie, the rejection of Christ and His Mercy.
 
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Lynn-D:
“Some have said ‘I was born this way.’ Some have gone so far as to say, ‘God made me this way.’ God cannot and will not create contrary to His Natural Law. God is a God of reason and He does nothing contrary to reason. Conclusion, God did not create homosexuality.” I find this statement in contradiction to all I was taught in Catholic School.
Much of what has been taught in Catholic school over the past 35 years has been out of sync with authentic Catholic teaching.
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Lynn-D:
How dare we suppose what is and is not God’s reason or even attach God’s Law to natural reason.
The author is not. He is accepting God’s divinely revealed revelation. Disordered actions are manipulation of creation by the devil. The devil cannot create.
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Lynn-D:
God gives us the means to overcome and deal with some of the difficulties of health and circumstance given us at birth.
Exactly. Jesus Christ.
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Lynn-D:
Yes, God has His reasons but man does not and can not fully understand those reasons now can he?
I sense a presumption that homosexuality is genetic and individuals are born with it. How would you know this?
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Lynn-D:
Many of us offer the pains of birth and life up in offering for those in purgatory. I do! We are not born perfect beings nor do we have intimate knowledge of what is “Natural Law”.
How do you what is a “pain” and what is a “good” if natural law is all relative? We do know what some violations of natural law are through experience. We also know through the revelation of God. Both are usually intimate experiences.
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Lynn-D:
God will give us the full explation of his mysteries when he wishes to do so. I expect not until we are in His presense.
We will know more but we will never know as much as God. Thankfully, we don’t have to wait for some critical instruction and revelation of mystery. Some has been given for our benefit. Thanks be to God.
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Lynn-D:
I must be honest and wonder why so many who profess love for God seem to look in the bible for reasons to condemn others.
Most don’t condemn others. Most condemn the sin. The Bible tells us to do the latter. And the Bible tells us to love. The 2 are in sync.
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Lynn-D:
I will await His reply to my questions that surely will begin with: WHY???
WHY do you think that?
 
Other Eric said:
The conclusion to make is simple. There is no salvation for one who faces this temptation. The act of uniting to Christ’s sacrifice and enjoying the benefits thereof is the act of being completely, free from any hint of this disorder.

The affinity for sin may or may not be mortal sin. It often is not, especially if temptation is resisted. We all face affinities or desires for certain illicit pleasures. That is, unless we are already saints and perfectly united to Christ. Thankfully, God gave us purgatory to clear up these iniquities for those of us that die imperfect.

So, in a way you are correct. There is no salvation for anyone that has the affinities for sin. But these affinities can be cleared up in the afterlife if someone has repented from all mortal sin.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
But you come to the wrong conclusion…entirely the opposite of the Church’s teaching. Homosexuals who are chaste/celibate can unite their sufferings as a result of their condition to the suffering of Christ and attain holiness. That’s clear from the Catechism. The sin against the Holy Spirit is a rejection of the witness that the Holy Spirit gives to Jesus, ie, the rejection of Christ and His Mercy.
It seems to me that the concept of a homosexual attaining holiness is little more than wishful thinking. Point out, for example, the saint who was canonized in spite of his struggle with same-sex attraction. Short of the historical revisionism now in vogue at the elite universities of the world, you will find none. After nearly two thousand years, this would be an oversight of the first order, especially knowing that murderers, thieves, traitors and other assorted vermin have made the cut.

As for the Catechism, what it says and what it does not say, I’ve restated my points in this thread ad nauseum. For your convenience, I will now summarize: the action of uniting to the Lord’s sacrifice necessarily involves an emphatically heterosexual orientation; the rejection of the graces of the Holy Spirit that constitute the sin of blasphemy against Him are necessary for the condition of homosexuality to establish itself, without the rejection of the graces, there is no homosexual condition. Thus, a homosexual is one whose salvation is lost to him and he will never see the face of God.
 
Other Eric:
It seems to me that the concept of a homosexual attaining holiness is little more than wishful thinking. Point out, for example, the saint who was canonized in spite of his struggle with same-sex attraction. Short of the historical revisionism now in vogue at the elite universities of the world, you will find none. After nearly two thousand years, this would be an oversight of the first order, especially knowing that murderers, thieves, traitors and other assorted vermin have made the cut.

As for the Catechism, what it says and what it does not say, I’ve restated my points in this thread ad nauseum. For your convenience, I will now summarize: the action of uniting to the Lord’s sacrifice necessarily involves an emphatically heterosexual orientation; the rejection of the graces of the Holy Spirit that constitute the sin of blasphemy against Him are necessary for the condition of homosexuality to establish itself, without the rejection of the graces, there is no homosexual condition. Thus, a homosexual is one whose salvation is lost to him and he will never see the face of God.
And everyone else has tried to tell you ad nauseum (what an appropriate word choice) that you are incorrect. One of the inherrent strengths of the Catholic Church is that we are not to be our own magisterium as the Protestants claim to be. To profess yourself as Catholic, you are called to conform your heart, mind, body and soul to the Teachings of the Church.
 
Other Eric:
It seems to me that the concept of a homosexual attaining holiness is little more than wishful thinking. Point out, for example, the saint who was canonized in spite of his struggle with same-sex attraction. Short of the historical revisionism now in vogue at the elite universities of the world, you will find none. After nearly two thousand years, this would be an oversight of the first order, especially knowing that murderers, thieves, traitors and other assorted vermin have made the cut.

As for the Catechism, what it says and what it does not say, I’ve restated my points in this thread ad nauseum. For your convenience, I will now summarize: the action of uniting to the Lord’s sacrifice necessarily involves an emphatically heterosexual orientation** Where do you get this idea? This might** be an argument for not allowing homosexuals to be ordain (I doubt it, though I think it’s a good idea that they not be) The action of uniting to the Lord’s Sacrifice involves offering up our struggles and sorrows, even our struggles with sin. It’s a matter of picking up our cross and following Christ ; the rejection of the graces of the Holy Spirit that constitute the sin of blasphemy against Him are necessary for the condition of homosexuality to establish itself,** BUNK! We may not know exactly what causes it (the Church knows better than to specify it herself): it may be an abusive paternal relationship or a lack of nurturing. **without the rejection of the graces, there is no homosexual condition. **This is again completely contrary to Church teaching. She doesn’t begin to try to assert in any absolute fashion why someone is homosexual, let alone assert that they are so because they have rejected Christ. Note how she calls it a struggle, a burden for them.**Thus, a homosexual is one whose salvation is lost to him and he will never see the face of God.
The last sentence may well be a heresy, unless you qualify the word “homosexual” with something like "unchaste."
 
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Orionthehunter:
And everyone else has tried to tell you ad nauseum (what an appropriate word choice) that you are incorrect. One of the inherrent strengths of the Catholic Church is that we are not to be our own magisterium as the Protestants claim to be. To profess yourself as Catholic, you are called to conform your heart, mind, body and soul to the Teachings of the Church.
Merely because something is repeated over and over again by a great multitude does not make it true. I have now asked twice for citations to this phantom teaching of the Church and I have supported my own arguments with citations from Scripture, the Church Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, the Catechism and the pronouncements of the Holy See. I have yet to see anything similar coming from those who disagree with me other than a self-satisfied assurance that they are right and I am wrong.
 
Other Eric:
Merely because something is repeated over and over again by a great multitude does not make it true. I have now asked twice for citations to this phantom teaching of the Church and I have supported my own arguments with citations from Scripture, the Church Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, the Catechism and the pronouncements of the Holy See. I have yet to see anything similar coming from those who disagree with me other than a self-satisfied assurance that they are right and I am wrong.
What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God’s liberating grace.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
 
Other Eric:
Merely because something is repeated over and over again by a great multitude does not make it true. I have now asked twice for citations to this phantom teaching of the Church and I have supported my own arguments with citations from Scripture, the Church Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, the Catechism and the pronouncements of the Holy See. I have yet to see anything similar coming from those who disagree with me other than a self-satisfied assurance that they are right and I am wrong.
In addition to many othr threads on this site regarding homosexuality, I think you can go back and read posts 6,9,12,31,35,42, and 54 for a few direct quotation from Church Teaching.
 
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fix:
What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God’s liberating grace.
vatican.va/roman_curia/c…persons_en.html
This passage about recognizing the fundamental liberty belonging to the homosexual is entirely dependant upon his conversion from the evil condition of homosexuality. Since, as the document says this requires the profound collaboration of the Holy Spirit and since I have established that the acceptance of this assistance is impossible for the homosexual, it seems to me that this buttresses my point. The homosexual has lost his salvation and will never see the face of God.
 
Other Eric:
This passage about recognizing the fundamental liberty belonging to the homosexual is entirely dependant upon his conversion from the evil condition of homosexuality. Since, as the document says this requires the profound collaboration of the Holy Spirit and since I have established that the acceptance of this assistance is impossible for the homosexual, it seems to me that this buttresses my point. The homosexual has lost his salvation and will never see the face of God.
It says the homosexual person has fundamental freedom. That is exactly my point. He is free to stop sinning. He may cooperate with God’s grace. Your speculation is not fact and certainly I have seen no proof the Church agrees with you only you attempting to conjure up a theory.
 
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Orionthehunter:
In addition to many othr threads on this site regarding homosexuality, I think you can go back and read posts 6,9,12,31,35,42, and 54 for a few direct quotation from Church Teaching.
Yes, and as you’ll note when you go back to those quotations, I’ve replied to many of them to correct the overly benign and errant interpretation of the source documents.
 
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