How a married gay Catholic couple live their faith

[Sy_Noe]

I’m happy to discuss it, and would like to pose a question for your consideration.

If your nephew was holding a ceremony to celebrate a murder he’d just committed, would you feel obligated to attend just because of his familial relationship?

By murder in this context, I’m going to assume you mean a crime. Something illegal. SSM is legal under the law in the US.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

By murder in this context, I’m going to assume you mean a crime. Something illegal. SSM is legal under the law in the US.

Sy Noe, I admire you for your perseverance in this discussion. As you know, I live in San Francisco. Situations like this happen quite frequently. And gay and lesbian couples are active in their local parish churches. It’s normal. No one thinks twice about it. We have priests who are actively out and quite active in LGBT issues. I think one poster said that perhaps the priest wanted to make a point of what he hoped would change within the church. From the friends and colleagues I know personally, that would most likely be the case.

On the other hand, a family wedding is a family wedding. Perhaps he’ll be honored to perform a baptism in the near future.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Sy Noe, I admire you for your perseverance in this discussion. As you know, I live in San Francisco. Situations like this happen quite frequently. And gay and lesbian couples are active in their local parish churches. It’s normal. No one thinks twice about it. We have priests who are actively out and quite active in LGBT issues. I think one poster said that perhaps the priest wanted to make a point of what he hoped would change within the church. From the friends and colleagues I know personally, that would most likely be the case.

On the other hand, a family wedding is a family wedding. Perhaps he’ll be honored to perform a baptism in the near future.

If I may ask, since I see you are Anglican, are you referring to Anglican priests, Roman Catholic priests, or both? I’m not naive enough to assume there aren’t some actively gay and/or pro-gay-lifestyle RC priests especially in the San Francisco area, but I just wanted to get an idea what percentage you estimate…

 

[ComplineSanFran]

If I may ask, since I see you are Anglican, are you referring to Anglican priests, Roman Catholic priests, or both? I’m not naive enough to assume there aren’t some actively gay and/or pro-gay-lifestyle RC priests especially in the San Francisco area, but I just wanted to get an idea what percentage you estimate…

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring in the post to RC priests. However, in my Diocese (Episcopal), there are many, MANY gay clergy. Some are married, some in relationships, and some are celibate. Since it became legal, weddings are happening in churches all throughout the country, performed by clergy. We have a new liturgy, just approved by the National Church, for such weddings.

I have not been to a Roman Catholic wedding in a church (gay or lesbian). I have been to a wedding outside the sanctuary performed by an RC priest.

Number of gay priests in this area? I am taking a guess here, but I would say at least 50%. Now, I am not as familiar with ‘imported’ priests, those coming in from Asia and Africa to help with shortages, so that may change the numbers. But those who are predominately Anglo, Spanish, or from the Philippines, work in parishes and/or schools, yes, 50% at least. Of that group, I don’t know how many are active sexually.

 

[zz912]

Sy Noe, I admire you for your perseverance in this discussion. As you know, I live in San Francisco. Situations like this happen quite frequently. And gay and lesbian couples are active in their local parish churches. It’s normal. No one thinks twice about it. We have priests who are actively out and quite active in LGBT issues. I think one poster said that perhaps the priest wanted to make a point of what he hoped would change within the church. From the friends and colleagues I know personally, that would most likely be the case.

On the other hand, a family wedding is a family wedding. Perhaps he’ll be honored to perform a baptism in the near future.

There will be no children created from this sham attempt at marriage.

 

[zz912]

Yes but some churches allow more leeway in being able to disagree.

What other moral issues should be left up to individuals to decide?

 

[zz912]

I would suggest two actions:

1. We pray for all parties involved and the parishioners in Fr Ron’s parish.
2. We express our disappointment in his “publicly expressed view” by emailing his Bishop who can admonish and counsel Fr Ron.** The Bishop may already be aware and onto it.**

Please bear in mind upon re-reading the article that some of the comments attributed to Fr Ron were made in private to his nephew and partner who chose to publicise it.

The bishop’s spokesperson was quoted in the article, and related the bishop’s initial response to the matter. So the bishop is aware.

Hopefully he will act appropriately and protect his flock from such error.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

By murder in this context, I’m going to assume you mean a crime. Something illegal. SSM is legal under the law in the US.

Actually, no, I didn’t just mean “some crime.” I meant a gravely immoral act. What is legal is not always moral, and what is moral is not always legal. I didn’t give two thoughts about the legality of the action, I’m discussing whether or not it is moral.

 

[marymary1975]

In the light of Pope Francis “who am I to judge” comment, I think there is this new emphasis on another facet of what impels people to seek marriage or commitment. Even though the union is between two intrinsically incompatible parties, the desire to commit to a permanently binding union with another, itself is a human good. This isn’t just a baseless idea because it’s been developing in the field of criminal law ethics as well over the last some decades, which is stirring a lot of people up. It’s a major factor in the abolition of death sentences.

I wonder.if people.with this view are aware that Pipe.Francis fiercely fought against gay marriage in.Argentina, and in fact the reason why he didn’t.get along.with christina.Kirschnerwas because of his outspoken opposition to gay marriage

 

[Cider]

The majority of those with advanced degrees and living in the Western Industrialized countries do not look upon LGBTQ humans as disordered. Priests are generally well educated, many having post grad degrees. Have you ever witnessed a priest refuse to offer the Eucharist to a person that is gay? I was not specifically speaking of gay marriage, but of supporting loved ones who are in a loving and long term monogamous relationship and happen to be gay, not straight. What I thought when I read the OP is that this couple is lucky to have such a loving family. I would never advocate for the Church to perform marriage ceremonies for gay couples since it is still forbidden, however; I see no harm, much less scandal, in attending the civil ceremony or other religious marriage celebration for those that are in love and wish to let it be known that they are in a lifetime relationship.

Yes, I understand that my stance is not that of many traditionalists, so be it.

Traditionalist has nothing to do with it. Your opinion is heterodox and not consistent with Catholic teaching.

 

[Michael1978]

Sy Noe, I admire you for your perseverance in this discussion. As you know, I live in San Francisco. Situations like this happen quite frequently. And gay and lesbian couples are active in their local parish churches. It’s normal. No one thinks twice about it. We have priests who are actively out and quite active in LGBT issues. I think one poster said that perhaps the priest wanted to make a point of what he hoped would change within the church. From the friends and colleagues I know personally, that would most likely be the case.

On the other hand, a family wedding is a family wedding. Perhaps he’ll be honored to perform a baptism in the near future.

Hopefully Archbishop Cordileone will be made aware of these errant priests and discipline them accordingly. These priests are actively leading their flock to grave and mortal sin. You seem to have a lot of information on what occurs in Catholic Churches in your area even though you’re not Catholic. There are several non-Catholic Churches within blocks of my church --Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, etc., and I have no idea what occurs within those churches because I am Catholic and I attend Mass at my parish.

 

[1neophyte]

What other moral issues should be left up to individuals to decide?

I am not yet 40 years old, and in my lifetime I have seen an instance where someone who committed suicide was denied a Catholic funeral, and a couple other instances in the same diocese where people who have committed suicide not only had funeral masses, but the celebrants of these masses stated in their homilies that it was perfectly reasonable to believe that the deceased was in Heaven.

That’s a pretty massive leap within a couple of decades, coming from a 2,000 year old Church. Does that mean that the Church thinks suicide is now morally permissible? No, it means that the Church recognizes that God’s mercy is greater than any immorality we can come up with.

I asked in the first page of this thread if anyone had an answer as to why a priest publicly grieving over the fact that he couldn’t preside over a same sex “wedding” is still at a parish, and why an archbishop would have “no comment” over a priest’s clear public violation and opposition to basic Church teaching. I’m still waiting for an answer.

Could the answer be that the archbishop is unwilling to bring the hammer down because he is aware of God’s infinite mercy towards not only the openly sinful, but also the foolish? There seems to be a faction of the Church that is scandalized by the notion of God’s mercy, as if His mercy is supposed to be a reflection of our own. Where Jesus would say, “forgive them, Father, they know not what they do,” these people would say, “too bad for them, Father, they should have known better.”

In a previous post, I brought up the Samaritan woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, and the “good” thief on the cross next to Jesus as examples of instances where Jesus proved that His mercy and forgiveness PRECEDES our repentance. I’ll say it again. The mercy and forgiveness of God PRECEDES our repentance. Those who wanted to contend with this fact pointed out that Jesus didn’t leave them in their sin, that they repented and didn’t sin anymore.

First of all, where in scripture does it say that they didn’t sin again for the rest of their lives? More relevantly, who here leaves the confessional after receiving absolution and SINCERELY believes it will be their final confession, because they will no longer sin for their remainder of life on earth? Of COURSE we strive to live according to God’s law, and of COURSE when we fail it’s not “okay” or “acceptable”. But to live by the illusion of our own goodness is not only utter foolishness but also dangerous because …

…Second of all, the objectors also use the Samaritan woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, and the “good” thief on the cross next to Jesus as examples of those who were converted after their encounter with Jesus. But the fact is, the only way people involved in same sex “marriages” or priests approving of such marriages are going to be converted is by an ENCOUNTER WITH JESUS. And the way one can possibly have an encounter with Jesus in the year 2015 is through the Church. How in the WORLD can we expect anyone to be converted if instead of providing an encounter with Jesus, the “Church” only offers name calling, nasty condemnations, and ridiculous imaginary lines drawn dividing those who are worthy and unworthy of mercy.

Let’s let go of our illusions that our intentions make us worthy of anything. The love and mercy of God cannot be comprehended. If you think you comprehend it and that it applies to you because of your faithfulness and resolve to not sin, and doesn’t apply to someone else who is ignorant of the fact that they are sinning, fall on your knees and beg for repentance. Because we’re all ignorant, and we’re all sinning, every single day.

 

[Sy_Noe]

There will be no children created from this sham attempt at marriage.

So if Fr Victor’s nephew and his husband adopt an unbaptized child, the Catholic Church refuses to allow Fr Victor to baptize his or her grandnephew or grandniece too?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I am not yet 40 years old, and in my lifetime I have seen an instance where someone who committed suicide was denied a Catholic funeral, and a couple other instances in the same diocese where people who have committed suicide not only had funeral masses, but the celebrants of these masses stated in their homilies that it was perfectly reasonable to believe that the deceased was in Heaven.

That’s a pretty massive leap within a couple of decades, coming from a 2,000 year old Church. Does that mean that the Church thinks suicide is now morally permissible? No, it means that the Church recognizes that God’s mercy is greater than any immorality we can come up with.

I asked in the first page of this thread if anyone had an answer as to why a priest publicly grieving over the fact that he couldn’t preside over a same sex “wedding” is still at a parish, and why an archbishop would have “no comment” over a priest’s clear public violation and opposition to basic Church teaching. I’m still waiting for an answer.

Could the answer be that the archbishop is unwilling to bring the hammer down because he is aware of God’s infinite mercy towards not only the openly sinful, but also the foolish? There seems to be a faction of the Church that is scandalized by the notion of God’s mercy, as if His mercy is supposed to be a reflection of our own. Where Jesus would say, “forgive them, Father, they know not what they do,” these people would say, “too bad for them, Father, they should have known better.”

In a previous post, I brought up the Samaritan woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, and the “good” thief on the cross next to Jesus as examples of instances where Jesus proved that His mercy and forgiveness PRECEDES our repentance. I’ll say it again. The mercy and forgiveness of God PRECEDES our repentance. Those who wanted to contend with this fact pointed out that Jesus didn’t leave them in their sin, that they repented and didn’t sin anymore.

First of all, where in scripture does it say that they didn’t sin again for the rest of their lives? More relevantly, who here leaves the confessional after receiving absolution and SINCERELY believes it will be their final confession, because they will no longer sin for their remainder of life on earth? Of COURSE we strive to live according to God’s law, and of COURSE when we fail it’s not “okay” or “acceptable”. But to live by the illusion of our own goodness is not only utter foolishness but also dangerous because …

…Second of all, the objectors also use the Samaritan woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, and the “good” thief on the cross next to Jesus as examples of those who were converted after their encounter with Jesus. But the fact is, the only way people involved in same sex “marriages” or priests approving of such marriages are going to be converted is by an ENCOUNTER WITH JESUS. And the way one can possibly have an encounter with Jesus in the year 2015 is through the Church. How in the WORLD can we expect anyone to be converted if instead of providing an encounter with Jesus, the “Church” only offers name calling, nasty condemnations, and ridiculous imaginary lines drawn dividing those who are worthy and unworthy of mercy.

Let’s let go of our illusions that our intentions make us worthy of anything. The love and mercy of God cannot be comprehended. If you think you comprehend it and that it applies to you because of your faithfulness and resolve to not sin, and doesn’t apply to someone else who is ignorant of the fact that they are sinning, fall on your knees and beg for repentance. Because we’re all ignorant, and we’re all sinning, every single day.

You seem to be implying that it is merciful to attend these “weddings” and congratulate the people, or act as though there is nothing wrong with what they’re doing. That’s not mercy, that’s apathy. Christ did forgive them woman, that is true, but that forgiveness carried with it an absolute declaration of reform. She was forgiven, and from then on had to reform her life.

In this instance, it is quite clear that these people have no desire to reform their lives. Quite the opposite, they are making a declaration that the intend to continue to live a lie which directly opposes God. God is all merciful, that is true; but mercy is only given to those willing to repent and recognize their error. God will not force his mercy on anyone.

As Catholics, we are required to admonish the sinner and instruct the ignorant. That is the exact opposite of what this priest is doing.

As for your argument about suicide, the grave immorality of the act has not changed. What has changed is our understanding of the human brain, and the discovery that many people who commit suicide do not have the rational mind to actually choose it in a way that would be required for it to be a sin. In these cases, we cannot know, and it is left to God. “Gay marriage,” on the other hand, is something that is chosen. It is an act of the will. You could argue about whether or not someone has a choice when it comes to sexual inclinations, but whether they do or not, they decision to engage in the farce that is “gay marriage” is always and in every way a decision of the will, and carries with it moral implications. We should certainly pray that God will be merciful on these people, and on everyone, but there is a big difference between someone who suffers from psychological issues and someone who wants to publicly declare their dedication to immorality.

 

[zz912]

So if Fr Victor’s nephew and his husband adopt an unbaptized child, the Catholic Church refuses to allow Fr Victor to baptize his or her grandnephew or grandniece too?

Fr. Victor’s nephew can’t and doesn’t have a husband.

And no, the baptism should be refused for such a child because the parent/guardian is explicitly denying they will raise the child Catholic. Baptism of children is based on the faith of the parents of the child. Since that faith is explicitly lacking in your hypothetical, it would be improper to baptize the child.

 

[Cider]

It’s the sin of presumption to rely only on Gods mercy. It’s not like this priest or these Catholics do not know church teaching. But they chose to flout it and now you are trying to justify it with the presumption of mercy, without contrition I might add.

 

[zz912]

In a previous post, I brought up the Samaritan woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, and the “good” thief on the cross next to Jesus as examples of instances where Jesus proved that His mercy and forgiveness PRECEDES our repentance. I’ll say it again. The mercy and forgiveness of God PRECEDES our repentance. Those who wanted to contend with this fact pointed out that Jesus didn’t leave them in their sin, that they repented and didn’t sin anymore.

The Good Thief confessed his sin to Jesus before Jesus proclaimed his salvation.

The woman at the well admitted she had no husband and admitted her sin in their conversation. It doesn’t note in scripture when Jesus forgave her sins.

The same holds true for the woman caught in adultery. Jesus withholds punishment from her, which is His mercy, but it doesn’t note her sins being forgiven. He merely says to go and sin no more.

 

[1neophyte]

You seem to be implying that it is merciful to attend these “weddings” and congratulate the people, or act as though there is nothing wrong with what they’re doing. That’s not mercy, that’s apathy.

.

I didn’t imply any such thing, or anything even distantly resembling that. I’m sorry you either didn’t read or didn’t comprehend what I wrote.

 

[marymary1975]

So if Fr Victor’s nephew and his husband adopt an unbaptized child, the Catholic Church refuses to allow Fr Victor to baptize his or her grandnephew or grandniece too?

The teaching of the church is that to baptize the child the priest needs a reasonable expectation that the child will.be brought up within the Catholic.Faith. the difficulty here is that a child with two actively homosexual parents within an invalid marriage in reality is not going to be brought within the Catholic faith. If this couple would agree to live chats lives and not.together teaching the child that homosexuality is sinful.and.that is why they are living.in.chastity, then there is a reasonable.expectation, but usually that is not the case.

Now this particular.priest seems to be in straight opposition to the teachings of the church so he probably doesn’t care about what the church h actually says.

 

[1neophyte]

We should certainly pray that God will be merciful on these people, and on everyone, but there is a big difference between someone who suffers from psychological issues…

You’re saying those who experience same sex attraction don’t have psychological issues? Are you joking?