How Are "SDAs" Not In Harmony With The Apostles?

[Matariel]

The RCC didn’t even exist at the time. It was the body of believers that defined the church–see Paul’s admonition in Col. 2:17b “but the body of Christ”–it was they who was to do the judging, not the outsiders who were harrassing them.

LOL, you’re kidding right? The Catholic Church was the only Church around at that time, except for heretical Gnostic and Ebionitic sects. The SDA sect didn’t exist until 1,800 years later…

 

[Matariel]

Define “exclusively.”

My point stands–there is no biblical support fopr the claim: “Non-immersion baptism is just as valid though.”

Doesn’t matter-- the Bible was never intended as the sole rule of faith. The early Church (which was the Catholic Church) used immersion, but in cases of lack of much water, or the sick or the bed-ridden, infusion (pouring was used). As a matter of fact, much early Christian art shows baptism in the form of pouring. At any rate, it is a relatively recent thing (Anabaptists, I think, started it in the early 16th century) to question the validity of infusion.

The word “baptism” comes from the Greek “baptidzo” which was created/used by the dye makers for immersing the cloth they dyed into the dye. So, the form is defined by the word itself.

Not necessarily. The word baptizein was also used to denote ritual ablutions of any form; so it need not be. Otherwise, if the word could only mean “immerse”, why did the early Christians sometimes baptize by infusion?

I would think they would know their own language.

I figured we’d clear some basic misconceptions first. Then we could move onto the more complex parts.

Then let’s.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

I don’t know if I’m alone in this category or not, but I find it more than a bit ironic that YOU QUOTE Ellen G. White in regards to NOT QUOTING Ellen G. White.

In fact you have quoted Ellen G. White in ten (10) seperate posts on this forum, that she should not be quoted.

But if you read what she says above, she is not telling anyone to ignore her counsel. She tells them to never quote her words again, UNTIL they can obey the Bible.

She says above, that when they are able to make the Bible first and foremost in their lives, THEN they "will know better how to receive some counsel from God."

And what is that counsel from God that she is talking about?

It is HER counsel as “shown” to her by God.

And just as an FYI for the non-SDAs reading this. Nothing cements her thoughts and writings more in the minds of a SDA than when she begins writing about something with the words "I was shown…".

God bless all!!!

 

[theresa_bloom]

Not even close; you have been sorely misinformed–you should ask why? Is it ignorance on their part? Or, did they do it deliberately?

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

Hello djconklin,

In the quote above (by the way Patrick is right on) Ellen White says "Here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. Yet the Word was made Flesh. The Catholic church understands and practices exaltation of that one True Body of Christ. Why can’t you see it?

 

[happilycatholic]

I don’t know if I’m alone in this category or not, but I find it more than a bit ironic that YOU QUOTE Ellen G. White in regards to NOT QUOTING Ellen G. White.

In fact you have quoted Ellen G. White in ten (10) seperate posts on this forum, that she should not be quoted.

But if you read what she says above, she is not telling anyone to ignore her counsel. She tells them to never quote her words again, UNTIL they can obey the Bible.

She says above, that when they are able to make the Bible first and foremost in their lives, THEN they "will know better how to receive some counsel from God."

And what is that counsel from God that she is talking about?

It is HER counsel as “shown” to her by God.

And just as an FYI for the non-SDAs reading this. Nothing cements her thoughts and writings more in the minds of a SDA than when she begins writing about something with the words "I was shown…".

God bless all!!!

You are right and if more people would open their eyes. Not just SDAs, but a lot of folks out there are so willing to follow anyone carrying a Bible and quoting from it.

If I were Satan and I wanted your soul, the first thing I would do is pick up a Bible and say, “follow me”. It’s easy pickens if you ask me.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Not even close; you have been sorely misinformed–you should ask why? Is it ignorance on their part? Or, did they do it deliberately?

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible.

When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God.

Here is a perfect, or at least close to perfect, example for those of you who have said that the SDAs teach a “New Gospel”. Look at what Ellen G. White stated above that you should make the Bible “your food and your meat, and your drink,”. And then look at what the The Bible actually says about what must be our food, and our meat, and our drink.

Actually this is what Jesus said:

***John 6:53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” ***

Matthew 26:27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.” 23Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. 24"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,"

Luke 22:19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

I love the Bible, but the Bible is not Jesus.

No where in the gospels can I find Jesus saying that His words are meat and food and drink. I can only find Him saying the He Himself, His flesh, is our food and drink that will give us eternal life.

If anyone can find some scriptures which say that Jesus’ words, or the scriptures of the Bible are our food and drink please post them here so I can take a look at them.

But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

***John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. ***

John 1:14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You are right and if more people would open their eyes. Not just SDAs, but a lot of folks out there are so willing to follow anyone carrying a Bible and quoting from it.

If I were Satan and I wanted your soul, the first thing I would do is pick up a Bible and say, “follow me”. It’s easy pickens if you ask me.

Hi happilycatholic,

Now just imagine all of the Non-Biblical assertions that are contained in just that one paragraph which djconklin quoted above…and then mulitply that to the 30+ books that Ellen G. White wrote, and you will understand why they cannot read an entire scripture passage in context.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God.

And to continue with the thoughts in my previous posts, and as another example to answer the OP’s original question, here is what the Apostle Paul wrote about what our food, meat, and drink is, and just how important that food and drink is for Christians.

1 Corinthians 10:14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

***1 Corinthians 11:23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.***

This is a major point where not just the SDAs, but can I safely say ALL, of protestantism is not in harmony with the Aposltes?

For those who disagree with this, please provide scriptures from the Bible that teach differently about what our food and drink is as Christians.

To make the claim that the Bible is our food, our meat, our drink, is to make the Bible an idol. Read what Paul says to the Corintians above before showing them their error and sin in how they celebrated The Lord’s Supper…“FLEE from idolatry”.

The amazing thing is that the SDAs are not alone in making the Bible an idol and assigning to it characteristics that apply only to Jesus. I would guess that if you showed that quote above to the majority of protestants and removed all references to Ellen G. White, they would agree 100% with what Ellen G. White said, in spite of the fact the majority of protestants do not like the SDA church (and believe me I know about that having dealt with many protestant denominations when I was a SDA).

The Bible points us to God with the writings inspired by God for His people, for all mankind. But to assign to the Bible the characteristics of God is idolatry as much as if someone would assign the characteristics of God to a statue of Jesus…they are both inanimate objects used to lead us to God, but they are NOT God.

When my father died, I wore a sweater of his for many months. Why? Did the sweater contain powers to bring my dad back to life? Was the sweater some supernatural presence of my dad? NO…a hundred times NO. It reminded me of him and carried my thoughts to a closeness we once shared…in my memory of him. To wear that sweater was a physical, yet symbolic way, to be wrapped in his arms once again…but it never became worship of him or of that sweater. The potential was there to slip into that disordered way of thinking…but that is not why I wore that sweater.

I wore that sweater because it helped me to remember him.

I read the Bible because it helps me remember God and to hear His voice and learn His ways.

I sit in front of a crucifix and contemplate, and even pray, and it helps me to remember God and what He did for us in becoming man and offering Himself for our sins.

But I do not worship any of those things, even though I show them preferential respect in comparison with other things that are not important.

If any of those things that help me “remember” become more important than what is being remembered…I would say that is idolatry.

And no where in the Bible that I can find, and please show me from the Bible where I’m wrong if you can, that anything other than the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is our food and drink which can give us eternal life should we choose to eat it.

It is Christ and Christ alone, crucified and risen, offered to and received by us from God Himself, which will take us into eternity into the real presence of God…just as He intended in the beginning. Just as it occurs now and just as it will be for all eternity because of Jesus…The Word made Flesh.

God bless all!!!

 

[theresa_bloom]

Define “exclusively.”

My point stands–there is no biblical support fopr the claim: “Non-immersion baptism is just as valid though.”

The word “baptism” comes from the Greek “baptidzo” which was created/used by the dye makers for immersing the cloth they dyed into the dye. So, the form is defined by the word itself.

So why don’t you immerse yourself in dye?

 

[theresa_bloom]

Define “exclusively.”

My point stands–there is no biblical support fopr the claim: “Non-immersion baptism is just as valid though.”

The word “baptism” comes from the Greek “baptidzo” which was created/used by the dye makers for immersing the cloth they dyed into the dye. So, the form is defined by the word itself.

So why don’t you immerse yourself in dye?

 

[Matariel]

So why don’t you immerse yourself in dye?

'Cause that’d be too messy.

Originally Posted by djconklin:
Define “exclusively.”

My point stands–there is no biblical support fopr the claim: “Non-immersion baptism is just as valid though.”

Doesn’t matter-- the Bible was never intended as the sole rule of faith. The early Church (which was the Catholic Church) used immersion, but in cases of lack of much water, or the sick or the bed-ridden, infusion (pouring was used). As a matter of fact, much early Christian art shows baptism in the form of pouring. At any rate, it is a relatively recent thing (Anabaptists, I think, started it in the early 16th century) to question the validity of infusion.

The word “baptism” comes from the Greek “baptidzo” which was created/used by the dye makers for immersing the cloth they dyed into the dye. So, the form is defined by the word itself.

Not necessarily. The word* baptizein *was also used to denote ritual ablutions of any form; so it need not be. Otherwise, if the word could only mean “immerse”, why did the early Christians sometimes baptize by infusion?

I would think they would know their own language.

I figured we’d clear some basic misconceptions first. Then we could move onto the more complex parts.

Then let’s.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi happilycatholic,

Now just imagine all of the Non-Biblical assertions that are contained in just that one paragraph which djconklin quoted above…and then mulitply that to the 30+ books that Ellen G. White wrote, and you will understand why they cannot read an entire scripture passage in context.

God bless all!!!
**
Hi Partick,

Before I start, let me please say: "Throw Ellen G. White over to the side, just throw her right over to the side (It is some kind of SDA ritual when talking about their prophet. I think they chant it several times to drive off evil? I could be wrong! )

You said “and then mulitply that to the 30+ books that Ellen G. White wrote”

Ellen White was one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, believed by the church to have the spiritual gift of prophecy described in the Bible. Being a Plagiarist she appeared to be a prolific author, copying and changing more than 40 books and penning over 5000 periodical articles during her ifetime. Today, there are over 100 books available, due to posthumous compilations made from the approximately 50,000 manuscript pages of her writings. The use the same techniques the Protestants do with the bible I think.
Being a Plagiarist, I actually think she was still working on “Her” first book when she died. Probably at page 2 or 3!

That is all I can add! So, now Lets pick the old lady up and brush her off. They don’t do that. I think they let her laying on the side. But I thought it would be a nice “Christian” touch if we showed some respect for their prophet who they worship rather than Jesus!
We must start out small and hopefully we can make the SDAs become Christians, if not, at least Protestants!

God Bless**

 

[djconklin]

So why don’t you immerse yourself in dye?

Christ was baptized in the river Jordan. Philip baptized the eunuch where there was “much water.”

 

[djconklin]

The Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off.

ROFL!

 

[djconklin]

I don’t know if I’m alone in this category or not, but I find it more than a bit ironic that YOU QUOTE Ellen G. White in regards to NOT QUOTING Ellen G. White.

It’s alright to quote someone; it just matters why you are quoting them.

 

[djconklin]

Being a Plagiarist she appeared to be a prolific author, copying

And then when we look at the evidence we find it ain’t so. Who’d of thunk!

I’d recommend reading an scholar in the field: Original Copy: Plagiarism and Originality in Nineteenth-Century Literature by
Robert Macfarlane.

20 years ago(!) Dr. Veltman told us what kind of study need to be done to prove, or disprove, if EGW was a plagiarist. To the best of my knowledge, I am the first and only person (on the entire planet!!! ARGH!) AND I am the first one to have submitted such work to a scholarly, refereed journal to have it published (should be out soon).

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by Marsha Adams
Proof of this comes from the SDA’s own doctrines. SDAs freely admit that nothing (with the exception of EGW) that was written after the Bible is binding. …

1/ Where do Adventists specifically state that "nothing (with the exception of Ellen G White) that was written after the Bible is binding?

We didn’t; but it sounds good and who knows how many will buy it?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

And then when we look at the evidence we find it ain’t so. Who’d of thunk!

I’d recommend reading an scholar in the field: Original Copy: Plagiarism and Originality in Nineteenth-Century Literature by
Robert Macfarlane.

20 years ago(!) Dr. Veltman told us what kind of study need to be done to prove, or disprove, if EGW was a plagiarist. To the best of my knowledge, I am the first and only person (on the entire planet!!! ARGH!) AND I am the first one to have submitted such work to a scholarly, refereed journal to have it published (should be out soon).

Hi djconklin,

I hope your article gets published!

May I ask you what journal you submitted your work to?

Thanks!

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

The article is listed in what will be published–when it comes out then I will tell you the name.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi Partick,

Before I start, let me please say: "Throw Ellen G. White over to the side, just throw her right over to the side (It is some kind of SDA ritual when talking about their prophet. I think they chant it several times to drive off evil? I could be wrong! )

You said “and then mulitply that to the 30+ books that Ellen G. White wrote”

Ellen White was one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, believed by the church to have the spiritual gift of prophecy described in the Bible. Being a Plagiarist she appeared to be a prolific author, copying and changing more than 40 books and penning over 5000 periodical articles during her ifetime. Today, there are over 100 books available, due to posthumous compilations made from the approximately 50,000 manuscript pages of her writings. The use the same techniques the Protestants do with the bible I think.
Being a Plagiarist, I actually think she was still working on “Her” first book when she died. Probably at page 2 or 3!

That is all I can add! So, now Lets pick the old lady up and brush her off. They don’t do that. I think they let her laying on the side. But I thought it would be a nice “Christian” touch if we showed some respect for their prophet who they worship rather than Jesus!
We must start out small and hopefully we can make the SDAs become Christians, if not, at least Protestants!

God Bless

Hi Realcatholicgk :tiphat:,

You make a very good point about the great number of books attributed to her which are post-humous compliations. Something I noticed when citing quotes of hers in another thread yesterday

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=302136&page=43&highlight=dare+to+protestants

There are more than a few instances where the same quote appears in different articles, different books, at different dates, many of which are after her death such as 1947, 1976, etc.

That doesn’t bother me so much since I believe most people are intelligent enough to understand the nature of the publishing business where re-compiling, re-arranging, and re-selling a definitive amount of work, keeps a publishing house in business.

And I know that here is where you and I will most likely disagree, and that’s ok…but the fact that she plagerized, copied, quoted without citing sources, or whatever label you place on what she did in her writing, does not bother me so much either. There is a case to be made regarding copyright laws in those days.

I guess the biggest issue is the honesty factor, of claiming to have visions about something and documenting those visions with someone else’s writing work.

When I was a senior in college in 1982 and this issue was coming up full force, we Theology students met with Conference presidents (since they were the ones who would hire us after graduation). The single most important question they asked us was how we felt about Mrs. White’s “borrowing” as they called it at the time (I tried to convince the police one time that I was “borrowing” the neighbor’s Triumph TR6, but they didn’t believe me).

My answer to the Conference presidents, which was my honest anser then, and the answer I still hold to this day was, that no matter what nor how much she “borrowed” you will find the message she presents in no other church.

At that time I believed she was inspired by God. I do not believe that now obviously.

But I did, and still do retain a certain level of respect for her, because right or wrong, she moved forward in her life to further the cause she believed in. She suffered much at times. And there are things that she wrote which still speak truth to my heart. I understand that is not the case with you, but it is with me.

However, the conclusion I still come to, as I did in 1982, is that the message she presented cannot be found in any other church. And it is her message which most Seventh-day Adventists believe and embrace.

And so her message must be held up to the Light of Divine revelation in order to see the holes in her message where that Light shines through.

And after much study of the Bible, and much much prayer, the conclusion I came to was that there are many holes in her message in conflict with Divine revelation. And oddly, very oddly and strangely to me, it is the teachings of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church, that pass the test of the Light of Divine revelation shining on it. And that is why I finally converted to Catholisim.

In my life it has always been about the message, not the person, and I believe it must always be about the message and not the people. And ultimately it is about the choices we make as individuals.

I pray that all SDAs who are sincerely seeking the Truth, continue to pray for God’s direction, and the openess to consider and pray about Catholic teachings. For me, it has been the greatest blessing of my life…but it was the most difficult struggle of my life…at least to this point in time.

God bless all!!!