How are the people to learn chant responses?

[Cat]

I’ve mentioned this on other threads before, and I’ve decided to start my own thread in the hopes that there will be some good, practical suggestions.

I attended Easter Vigil Mass last night as I usually do–what a joy! We had about a dozen baptisms–rapture! And everyone was so happy and it was so wonderful to sing Alleluia again!

But…

Several times through the Mass, the deacon chanted, and the people were expected to chant a response (in English, BTW).

It was pathetic. Even though there was a choir, because of the architecture of our church (1970s clamshell), it is difficult to hear them. And I don’t think many of them were singing the responses, just as most people in the nave were not singing. It literally sounded like a really sick, puny, group of kitty cats trying to cough up hairballs. Not a good witness to Christ or to non-Catholics in attendance.

I love to sing and sing reasonably well, and I joyously sang all the other hymns, including a full version of Handel’s Hallelujah Chorus.

But like all the other people, I stood there like a dummy during the chant responses. I had no idea what to sing, either words or tune. Because of this, I stayed silent. I can’t sing what I don’t know.

So here’s my question–how are we who did not grow up with these chants (over half the Catholic church in the U.S. are converts, based on stats that I’ve read)–supposed to learn these chants if they’re only done a few times a year?

I would have like to have seen the chants (words and score) projected on the screen (which is seldom used in our church) so that I could read the words and music and sing out. This would help all the people in the congregation who do not read music to learn them, too.

Passing out words/music on paper would have been useless, as several times, the chants and responses happened during the “darkness” and we wouldn’t be able to read paper copy.

I honestly don’t know the answer to this. I suppose many of you will say, “They should do the chants more than a few times a year.”

Actually, our parish does quite a bit of the chanting, but it’s always the same–most people don’t seem to know the chants, so we all stand there, even those of us who love to sing. Is there some kind of rubric that forbids printing these chants and responses (either overhead or on paper) so that music readers can learn them?

I think that if it’s not done well, it shouldn’t be done at all. It’s silly for a person to stand up in front and chant (badly, BTW), and then stand there waiting while only a few people out of a thousand know what they are supposed to sing. It looks and sounds really pathetic, and I don’t think anything in the Holy Mass should be “pathetic.”

So if they’re going to do it (chant), they have to teach it. Realistically, how can that be done?

Thanks for your suggestions. Happy Easter.

 

[ProVobis]

I would have like to have seen the chants (words and score) projected on the screen (which is seldom used in our church) so that I could read the words and music and sing out. This would help all the people in the congregation who do not read music to learn them, too.

Passing out words/music on paper would have been useless, as several times, the chants and responses happened during the “darkness” and we wouldn’t be able to read paper copy.

Well, as long as you think the church needs to go high-tech with religion, why don’t we just program everything into the new IPADs and we can teach them that way?

 

[Phemie]

The responses are the same as spoken, just chanted. I haven’t heard much variation to “The Lord be with you” “And also with you” in any parish.

If we did what Musicam Sacram asked us to do back in 1967 (a document that has never been rescinded) this would not be a problem. #28 explains that this document sets out to help avoid exactly what you are complaining about, lack of familiarity with the chants. Can you see from this section that most parishes do it backwards?

From experience I know that if you have a priest who insists on chanting the dialogue (I’ve only run into one such) the congregation takes a few Sundays to ‘re-learn’ what they once knew and by the third Sunday the responses are louder and more confident.

1. The distinction between solemn, sung and read Mass, sanctioned by the Instruction of 1958 (n. 3), is retained, according to the traditional liturgical laws at present in force. However, for the sung Mass (Missa cantata), different degrees of participation are put forward here for reasons of pastoral usefulness, so that it may become easier to make the celebration of Mass more beautiful by singing, according to the capabilities of each congregation.
   These degrees are so arranged that the first may be used even by itself, but the second and third, wholly or partially, may never be used without the first. In this way the faithful will be continually led toward an ever greater participation in the singing.
   29. The following belong to the first degree:
   (a) In the entrance rites: the greeting of the priest together with the reply of the people; the prayer.
   (b) In the Liturgy of the Word: the acclamations at the Gospel.
   (c) In the Eucharistic Liturgy: the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue and the Sanctus; the final doxology of the Canon, the Lord’s Prayer with its introduction and embolism; the Pax Domini; the prayer after the Communion; the formulas of dismissal.
   30. The following belong to the second degree:
   (a) the Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei;
   (b) the Creed;
   (c) the prayer of the faithful.
   31. The following belong to the third degree:
   (a) the songs at the Entrance and Communion processions;
   (b) the songs after the Lesson or Epistle;
   (c) the Alleluia before the Gospel;
   (d) the song at the Offertory;
   (e) the readings of Sacred Scripture, unless it seems more suitable to proclaim them without singing.

 

[jilly4ski]

I guess I really haven’t seen this problem, the people that don’t chant are the same people who don’t sing generally. I haven’t had a problem learning the chants, b/c when the priest/deacon chants something the congregation usually responds with the same tune (generally) and the words are either the same as the spoken words or are repeating (So if you don’t get them the first time you have a few chances).

 

[sabriner]

Cat, do you know what the chants were? what parts of the Mass?

(Happy Easter!)

 

[Cat]

Well, as long as you think the church needs to go high-tech with religion, why don’t we just program everything into the new IPADs and we can teach them that way?

This is a good idea. Is there a reason why this hasn’t been done? It would be wonderful if the music notes (the score) could be shown at the same time, as many musicians (like me) learn better by reading music rather than listen/sing.

 

[OraLabora]

I usually attend Mass in French and my experience has been that people instinctively seem to know the chant responses in French.

Last night at the Easter Vigil at the monastery I usually attend, the choirmaster gave the faithful a brief lesson in chant responses before the Vigil. It was useful as the monks have a few small nuances.

 

[Cat]

Cat, do you know what the chants were? what parts of the Mass?

(Happy Easter!)

I’m sorry, I’m not sure I can remember most of them.

1. When the deacon was processing with the Easter candle down the aisle, he was singing something about the Light of Jesus.
2. Before the Gospel–“The Lord is with you” “and also with you.” Lift up your hearts, etc. I know that this has been done occasionally in our parish, but I still haven’t gotten it. I don’t remember things well, especially songs. Never have been able to memorize songs, melodies, etc.–I’m totally dependent on the music. And from the sound of the pitiful response last night (abotu 700 people in the congregation), I think a lot of others are just like me!
3. There was another time when the deacon sang some Alleluias, with quite a bit of cadence. No one had any idea what to sing.
4. The priest did something at the end of Mass. Again, no one had much clue.

I hope that those of you who are familiar with chant won’t use the argument that, “Well, I’ve learned it and therefore, you can, too.” That doesn’t work.

And I hope that you don’t assume that because I don’t know these chants, I’m a “modernist” Catholic who really has one foot in the Protestant world. Get this straight–when it comes to music, I have both feet in the Protestant world because that’s what I knew for 47 years–it’s part of me. Chant was never, ever EVER done in my evangelical Protestant churches–the only time I ever heard any chant was in old horror movies, so it’s a totally unfamiliar and to me, uncomfortable singing style. I feel like I need music and words to learn new songs–maybe some of you who sing by ear can’t comprehend that. Well, that’s the way it is.

What I’m tryin to say is, laughing or snorting or rolling your eyes is not really a good way to deal with my question. This is a real issue. Our congregation sounded dreadful last night on the chants. We sounded pretty good on the familiar hymns, but the chants–echh. It certainly isn’t helping me to like chants very much. It’s very ugly to hear. Help is needed there. I can see why chant is becoming less and less common in churches. It’s really not pleasant when no one knows it.

I do like ProVobis’ very practical idea of putting the commonly-used chants on IPAD so that people can “practice” when they are alone. That’s such a good idea that gives me hope that maybe we can actually learn these chants.

Are there other practical ideas? I promise I will take ideas to our liturgical director and beg her to implement the cheap ones! (or ask the priests to stop trying to use chant when no one knows what they’re doing)

How about a “chants” hymnal? Is there such a thing available, something cheap and small, about the size of one of those little Catholic prayer books, that Catholics like me could carry into the Mass and refer to? Or a selection of common chants that can be printed off from the web? Thanks.

 

[KarenElissa]

At my parish, the choir director uses her hands to show with the notes go up an down and such, so it is pretty easy to follow along. It seems to work well as everyone sings nice and loud and for the most part follows the tune. Our choir is in a convenient place for this, the front rows on the right, so everyone can see, but YMMV depending on where the choir is.

 

[kage_ar]

People will learn the way they have learned them since Chant began - by hearing.

If Chant was not some rare thing, trotted out on Easter only, it would be learned.

 

[Cat]

People will learn the way they have learned them since Chant began - by hearing.

If Chant was not some rare thing, trotted out on Easter only, it would be learned.

So what you’re saying is ask my parish to do more chant?

Thank you for the suggest. I’ll certainly suggest it to our liturgical director. Like I said, they do the “The Lord be with you” “and also with you” chant quite often, but it still sounds awful.

I wish with all my heart that I could learn songs by ear, but unless the Lord fixes my brain, it’s probably not going to happen. I can’t do the puzzles on Wheel of Fortune either. And I can’t fix anything that breaks because I can’t see what’s broken.

I really would like music (notes), please. Isn’t that possible? Is there something wrong or irreverent about wanting/needing music? Is that Protestant or something? I’m getting the distinct impression that I am asking for something that just is not possible, and I’m wondering what I’m missing here.

 

[MarkThompson]

I’m sorry, I’m not sure I can remember most of them.

1. When the deacon was processing with the Easter candle down the aisle, he was singing something about the Light of Jesus.

1. Before the Gospel–“The Lord is with you” “and also with you.” Lift up your hearts, etc. I know that this has been done occasionally in our parish, but I still haven’t gotten it. I don’t remember things well, especially songs. Never have been able to memorize songs, melodies, etc.–I’m totally dependent on the music. And from the sound of the pitiful response last night (abotu 700 people in the congregation), I think a lot of others are just like me!

1. There was another time when the deacon sang some Alleluias, with quite a bit of cadence. No one had any idea what to sing.

1. The priest did something at the end of Mass. Again, no one had much clue.

I hope that those of you who are familiar with chant won’t use the argument that, “Well, I’ve learned it and therefore, you can, too.” That doesn’t work.

To be honest, I’m a little surprised if your congregation would have trouble on things like, “The Lord be wiiiiiiith yooouuuuu / And also with yoooooouuuuuuu” or “Li - ift u-up your hea - arts / We li - ift them up to the Lo - ord.” I’ve never been to a parish (and I’m talking about run-of-the-mill middle-American parishes) where people didn’t know things like that instinctively. The same goes for chanting the Our Father in the customary American setting. Even on things like the Easter dismissal with the melismatic alleluias, which can only be done from the Easter Vigil to Pentecost, people seem to pick it up easily, even if they don’t wind up sounding quite like cloistered monks. Mostly you’re just repeating the way the priest sings it. For what it’s worth, all of the common settings are adapted from the Latin and are, as far as I know, centuries old.

Now, some things are a little harder. When the Paschal candle is brought in, it’s, “Chri - ist our li-ight / Tha - anks be to Go - od,” and I would never remember that that’s the response unless someone told me. But there the problem isn’t the chanting, it’s knowing the words.

So to answer your question, How are the people to learn chant responses?, I can say,

1. Do them often enough, and people will be accustomed to them. Particularly things like the customary setting of responses like “Lift up your hearts / We lift them up to the Lord // Let us give thanks to the Lord our God / It is right to give him thanks and praise.” (Of course, we’ll have a different set of challenges when all those texts change, but that’s another story.)
2. Especially on days, like the Easter Vigil, which have unique responses, or when you expect people to come who don’t often go to Mass, the church can print and distribute a sheet/flier that contains the order of service, responses, etc., including (if you want to dispense with hymnals) the hymns. My current parish does this for every Sunday, and it includes things like the lyrics and translations of choir motets and introits so that people can follow along and engage with the text. We also don’t have hymnals in the pews; all the hymns, psalm responses, and so on are printed in the order of service.
3. If you’re interested to learn the response chants yourself, let me know and I’ll see if I can find a source that has them in English.

 

[SMHW]

I’ve mentioned this on other threads before, and I’ve decided to start my own thread in the hopes that there will be some good, practical suggestions.

I attended Easter Vigil Mass last night as I usually do–what a joy! We had about a dozen baptisms–rapture! And everyone was so happy and it was so wonderful to sing Alleluia again!

But…

Several times through the Mass, the deacon chanted, and the people were expected to chant a response (in English, BTW).

It was pathetic.

I hear you Cat.

My parish has what I consider an especially good volunteer choir. My choir director is a professional singer and is an accomplished pianist , organist and guitar player. He knows how to sing and how to direct chant. We practice but the majority of the people in my choir still sounded terrible last night.

Chant has to stay “in key” or it falls like a rock (and sounds about like a falling rock.) It really (in my opinion) is best for male voices. But in my experience, most American men are not used to having to sing. (And popular rock music doesn’t seem to put much emphasis on staying in key so men don’t hear a lot of examples of singing in key.) Chant is simple but you do have to know which syllables of the words get held for the right number of beats. It’s been my experience that even when parishes do chant that the people count incorrectly.

I do agree that the way to learn it is to hear it. But people have to hear it sung correctly. In my opinion, it is best to learn by hearing a small schola chant. Otherwise the chant sounds muddied. When everyone knows the chants it sounds fine with large groups. Large groups are just not good for learning.

Of course that means you need scholas who know how to chant. And it certainly helps if you have priests and deacons who can chant with competency.

 

[MarkThompson]

I wish with all my heart that I could learn songs by ear, but unless the Lord fixes my brain, it’s probably not going to happen. I can’t do the puzzles on Wheel of Fortune either. And I can’t fix anything that breaks because I can’t see what’s broken.

I really would like music (notes), please. Isn’t that possible? Is there something wrong or irreverent about wanting/needing music?

ICEL has the suggested musical settings of the upcoming translations on its website here, in ordinary five-line notation (i.e., not Gregorian chant notation). A lot of them are the same as what we have now, and to the extent that they’re not, you should probably be able to figure out how to plug in the current words. I think it’s no longer password-protected, but it used to be, and if you find that it still is I’ll bet that running a Google search like icel music “currently usable password” would help you.

 

[SMHW]

To be honest, I’m a little surprised if your congregation would have trouble on things like, “The Lord be wiiiiiiith yooouuuuu / And also with yoooooouuuuuuu” or “Li - ift u-up your hea - arts / We li - ift them up to the Lo - ord.” I’ve never been to a parish (and I’m talking about run-of-the-mill middle-American parishes) where people didn’t know things like that instinctively. The same goes for chanting the Our Father in the customary American setting. Even on things like the Easter dismissal with the melismatic alleluias, which can only be done from the Easter Vigil to Pentecost, people seem to pick it up easily, even if they don’t wind up sounding quite like cloistered monks. Mostly you’re just repeating the way the priest sings it. For what it’s worth, all of the common settings are adapted from the Latin and are, as far as I know, centuries old.

Now, some things are a little harder. When the Paschal candle is brought in, it’s, “Chri - ist our li-ight / Tha - anks be to Go - od,” and I would never remember that that’s the response unless someone told me. But there the problem isn’t the chanting, it’s knowing the words.

Hah! My parish has no problem with the response to “Christ our Light!”. They chant, “Thanks be to God,” just fine. And generally they can chant, “And also with you,” and, “We lift them up to the Lord,” even though they tend to drag waaaayyyyy too much. They know the Our Father well and even the Angus Dei in Latin but they get some parts wrong when there is no one leading them.

I think the hardest one is the, “Thanks be to God, Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.” They can usually handle up to the first alleluia and then they fall apart. I know it fairly well and even I tend to lose my place if my choir director doesn’t direct the tones for the last two alleluias.

 

[MarkThompson]

I think the hardest one is the, “Thanks be to God, Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.” They can usually handle up to the first alleluia and then they fall apart. I know it fairly well and even I tend to lose my place if my choir director doesn’t direct the tones for the last two alleluias.

Actually, there are only two alleluias, not three! You can see the music for this dismissal (in the new translations) in the last three lines of this PDF.

 

[SMHW]

Actually, there are only two alleluias, not three! You can see the music for this dismissal (in the new translations) in the last three lines of this PDF.

You are right of course. That just shows you how lost I get. I can’t even count. But that’s no surprise because I’m terrible with numbers.

 

[Nick_in_MB]

To be honest, I’m a little surprised if your congregation would have trouble on things like, “The Lord be wiiiiiiith yooouuuuu / And also with yoooooouuuuuuu” or “Li - ift u-up your hea - arts / We li - ift them up to the Lo - ord.” I’ve never been to a parish (and I’m talking about run-of-the-mill middle-American parishes) where people didn’t know things like that instinctively. The same goes for chanting the Our Father in the customary American setting. Even on things like the Easter dismissal with the melismatic alleluias, which can only be done from the Easter Vigil to Pentecost, people seem to pick it up easily, even if they don’t wind up sounding quite like cloistered monks. Mostly you’re just repeating the way the priest sings it. For what it’s worth, all of the common settings are adapted from the Latin and are, as far as I know, centuries old.

Yeah, we have one priest that says those parts, and another that sings them and we respond with singing. We normally just say the Our Father, but one time our priest decided to sing it, which caught us off-guard. But we went right along with it. It sounded something like “Our Father, who art in heaven, whoooooo arrrrrrt innn heaaa - vennnn” just to catch up and follow along with the priest.

 

[kage_ar]

So what you’re saying is ask my parish to do more chant?

Thank you for the suggest. I’ll certainly suggest it to our liturgical director. Like I said, they do the “The Lord be with you” “and also with you” chant quite often, but it still sounds awful.

I wish with all my heart that I could learn songs by ear, but unless the Lord fixes my brain, it’s probably not going to happen. I can’t do the puzzles on Wheel of Fortune either. And I can’t fix anything that breaks because I can’t see what’s broken.

I really would like music (notes), please. Isn’t that possible? Is there something wrong or irreverent about wanting/needing music? Is that Protestant or something? I’m getting the distinct impression that I am asking for something that just is not possible, and I’m wondering what I’m missing here.

They are in my hymnal.

Maybe you could get on the liturgy committee and suggest the purchase of new hymnals that include chant?

 

[sabriner]

This thread is so exciting! Cat, it’s your eagerness to learn the chants that will start it blooming all over the place–individuals starting to do it on their own, and soon others will catch on.

Here are a few links with some sheet music, and with even more information:
musicasacra.com/
interletras.com/canticum/Eng/translation_index.htm
icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/GregorianChant.php

Also try searching videos on YouTube.

Having chant promoted on a pastoral level will take time. Like others said, it happens through listening and hearing it often. So it will be a gradual, but sure, change if one persists in the project. Use as often as necessary to get the congregation used to it.

I know what you mean about a congregation sounding pathetic in not knowing the chants. It’s partly not only because of lack of knowledge in chant but also in overall catechesis on the Sacrifice of the Mass.

A good, solid choir is also key. “It was pathetic. Even though there was a choir, because of the architecture of our church (1970s clamshell), it is difficult to hear them. And I don’t think many of them were singing the responses, just as most people in the nave were not singing. It literally sounded like a really sick, puny, group of kitty cats trying to cough up hairballs. Not a good witness to Christ or to non-Catholics in attendance.” Therein lies a big problem. It’s the choir’s job to lead the congregation in such things.

The suggestion to print out leaflets is good. However, my parish uses OCP and they have the Latin chants in the back of the music issues. You just have to make sure the congregation knows what to do with these leaflets/hymnals.

Continue to ask and email people on websites such as the above, and etc. You’ll find a way.

God bless you on your endeavor! Restoration of the liturgy depends on people like you as well as the “higher-ups”. Restoration of the liturgy is restoration of faith in the Real Presence, and is restoration of faith in God.

(You might also want to read the following document set forth by the USCCB on Sacred Music: usccb.org/liturgy/SingToTheLord.pdf )

I’m sorry, I’m not sure I can remember most of them.

1. When the deacon was processing with the Easter candle down the aisle, he was singing something about the Light of Jesus.
2. Before the Gospel–“The Lord is with you” “and also with you.” Lift up your hearts, etc. I know that this has been done occasionally in our parish, but I still haven’t gotten it. I don’t remember things well, especially songs. Never have been able to memorize songs, melodies, etc.–I’m totally dependent on the music. And from the sound of the pitiful response last night (abotu 700 people in the congregation), I think a lot of others are just like me!
3. There was another time when the deacon sang some Alleluias, with quite a bit of cadence. No one had any idea what to sing.
4. The priest did something at the end of Mass. Again, no one had much clue.

I hope that those of you who are familiar with chant won’t use the argument that, “Well, I’ve learned it and therefore, you can, too.” That doesn’t work.

And I hope that you don’t assume that because I don’t know these chants, I’m a “modernist” Catholic who really has one foot in the Protestant world. Get this straight–when it comes to music, I have both feet in the Protestant world because that’s what I knew for 47 years–it’s part of me. Chant was never, ever EVER done in my evangelical Protestant churches–the only time I ever heard any chant was in old horror movies, so it’s a totally unfamiliar and to me, uncomfortable singing style. I feel like I need music and words to learn new songs–maybe some of you who sing by ear can’t comprehend that. Well, that’s the way it is.

What I’m tryin to say is, laughing or snorting or rolling your eyes is not really a good way to deal with my question. This is a real issue. Our congregation sounded dreadful last night on the chants. We sounded pretty good on the familiar hymns, but the chants–echh. It certainly isn’t helping me to like chants very much. It’s very ugly to hear. Help is needed there. I can see why chant is becoming less and less common in churches. It’s really not pleasant when no one knows it.

I do like ProVobis’ very practical idea of putting the commonly-used chants on IPAD so that people can “practice” when they are alone. That’s such a good idea that gives me hope that maybe we can actually learn these chants.

Are there other practical ideas? I promise I will take ideas to our liturgical director and beg her to implement the cheap ones! (or ask the priests to stop trying to use chant when no one knows what they’re doing)

How about a “chants” hymnal? Is there such a thing available, something cheap and small, about the size of one of those little Catholic prayer books, that Catholics like me could carry into the Mass and refer to? Or a selection of common chants that can be printed off from the web? Thanks.