How are we saved?

  • Thread starter Thread starter cestusdei
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
michaelp:
Good post.

This is the best summary of the Evangelical position:

The idea is that once you trust in Christ as your Lord and Savior, you do not continue in sin. Why? Because your old nature, which continually desires sin is not in control any longer. You are a new creature with new passions and desires.

It is like Luther said when someone objected to his position concering justification by faith alone saying that if it were true then everyone can do whatever they please. Luther responded, “This is true, now what pleases you.”

Christians have the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We have new pleasures, not of our own making, but of the making of the Holy Spirit. This way, we truly serve God, not out of obligation, fear of punishment, or with a sour face, but because we are drawn to his beauty, knowing that He freely gave to us a gift we did not deserve or earn in any way.

What a glorious thing salvation is!

Michael
Click to expand...
Sigh. This belief was what my former pastor taught and caused me a lot of unnecessary pain. If I am not mistaken you are saying that if a person is saved, then he or she should not want to sin. The problem was and is, I want to sin. For example when someone starts gossiping, it takes an extreme act of will on my part to not listen. I am not always succesful.

So how do Protestants know that they are saved? Is it just a feeling? If a person asks forgiveness of their sins, and accepts Jesus into their hearts, and then say commits adultry, were they not saved to begin with? So how does a Protestant know that his being saved took? I’m not being flippant with the last question-I just couldn’t think of any other way to word it.
 
I think the problem with some protestant people, is that they only take part of the way we are saved, and use this as the total and main belief, They use the idea of Jesus on the cross. And i can see where this is comeing from, Jesus saved us by dying on the cross, but what they do not understand is that, that was just the beginning. If you could just accept and be saved then why would we bother being here on earth, why aren’t we with God allready. No God wants us to carry on with what Jesus did for us. Jesus did not save us when he was on the cross, he gave us the chance of saving ourselves.
 
I believe that we are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ - BUT - I believe that our “works” or “good deeds” are the evidence of our salvation.
 
We are saved by recognizing we need a Savior. This can only be down by admitting we all have broken Gods law and that we remain in sin. If we were to die in this state we would be sentenced to hell by God our Ultimate Judge. BUT praise be to God Jesus is our payment for our sins so that we can be set free from the gates of hell. We must repent of our sins and recieve Christ into our hearts as our Lord and Savior. We are saved by His Blood. Thank you Jesus. 👍 God Bless
 
Where does the phrase “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” occur in the Bible? Chapter and verse. Must be exact phrasing. Not to be controversial, oh never!, but I find the Protestant view and language to be inadequate.
 
40.png
cestusdei:
Mike,
So you can say the sinners prayer, but if you then sin you were never really saved? This is why the assurance of salvation thing breaks down. There is no real assurance since anyone can backslide. The only alternative is how I phrased it on option 7. I have met baptists who would actually agree with it.
Click to expand...
Hi, number 7 is pretty bad, glad you say it’s a joke. I like your sense of humor.

I disagree with your statement about assurance breaking down if one sins. It only breaks down if one believes that one is responsible for his salvation. If one understands, as the scriptures say, that salvation is of God, He certainly can assure it.

I understand that you are an ex-protestant who is now a priest? What area of protestantism were you in? Calvinism seems likely, but I am only guessing. Arminianism doesn’t seem likely as what you are subscribing to now is somewhat Pelagian and akin to Arminianism. Just curious.

But assurance can only break down if salvation is of the sinner.

He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him.
 
40.png
Jay74:
We can’t earn salvation, as clearly pointed out in Ephesians. However, while works are the fruits of faith. Works can’t save you, but without works you clearly lack the needed faith.

It’s like writing a check without money in the bank–you can say you have an adequate balance and your debt is paid, but if you didn’t bother making any deposits (works) then your check isn’t really worth much.

Catholics on this site, correctly, do not like being misrepresented by non-catholics. Please, lets not misrepresent our non-catholic christian brethren either. They love Jesus too–some of them lead me to Him.

Blessings to all.
Click to expand...
Jay you contradict your self, and you almost have the point…
first lets go over the equation for Salvation:
Grace = Chirst’s death on the Cross for the sins of all Mankind

Faith = The Choice to accept that Grace

Works = The expression of that Faith, or that choice we made.

Grace + Faith + Works = Salvation…no one element is less important than the other. if you take out any one of the variables, you will not have salvation. you try to make works as a lesser act than Faith. It is not, they are ALL equally required.

your contradiction is this…

in one breath you say that

Jay says:
“We can’t earn salvation, as clearly pointed out in Ephesians. However, while works are the fruits of faith. Works can’t save you, but without works you clearly lack the needed faith.”

Salvations MUST be earned. Grace is the only thing that is Free and Guaranteed. I hope you see the logic in this. Everthing else is word play.

my point is that no ONE element ALONE can save you. you have to have ALL three variable to equal Salvation. Since Two of the variables, Faith and Works, depend upon Man, who is FALLIBLE, there can be no gaurantee of Salvation.

when i see some prots and catholics debate this, half the time i see them saying the same things in different words, and usually they miss the vital points that i mentioned above…

Peace of the Lord be with you!.
 
The problem with this thread (both in causing the struggles to even answer the poll and the disagreements that follow) is that, in this context, the meaning of “saved” is unclear.

We are justified (declared rightous before God) because Christ paid the price for our sins. But Christ died for all. That justification alone does not “save”.

We come to know of this justification, and know the Father, thorugh the faith which the Spirit freely gives to us. Why does the Spirit give us faith? Not because we decide to take it in response to an alter call, but rather because of God’s grace (undeserved love), God wants us to have it.

Once we have this free gift and know that we are reconciled to the Father, we are saved. Only then will the good works come. They will be an inevitable product of God’s love in us. We certainly will do them, but they will not save us.
 
40.png
RonWI:
We are justified (declared rightous before God) because Christ paid the price for our sins. But Christ died for all. That justification alone does not “save”.
Click to expand...
Please tell me, how do you know “Christ died for all.”?
 
40.png
sonseeker:
Please tell me, how do you know “Christ died for all.”?
Click to expand...
1 Timothy 2:

5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

I might add in support of my previous post more from 1 Timothy 2:

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
 
RonWI said:
1 Timothy 2:

5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

I might add in support of my previous post more from 1 Timothy 2:

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Click to expand...

If He died for all men, why aren’t all men saved?
 
40.png
sonseeker:
If He died for all men, why aren’t all men saved?
Click to expand...
Acts 13:

46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 7:

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One.
 
I voted we were saved through what Christ did, baptism is in obediance of what we are commanded, all the others come automatically, in Chist we are literally in love and in time the nature of Christ will shine through, though we must continually work out our salvation, overcome obstacles and fight against the flesh, which is weak.
 
I voted for Faith Alone, because it was obviously the “wrong” answer. I didn’t take time to think about it… I just want my vote to spite whoever created this heavily biased quiz. Come on… if someone continues to live in sin, doesn’t attend church, and never prays, who could say that they have faith?
 
40.png
Mike61:
I attended a fundamentalist Baptist church for several years and they actually believed once saved always saved, no matter what sins you committed. Even if you turned your back on God.

I remember once they did skit. They simulated that an entire family … were damned to hell except for the sucidal girl because she accepted Christ as her saviour in a sunday school class when she was a little girl but never went to church since.
Click to expand...
It is rarely wise to form one’s understanding of a church’s doctrine upon anecdotal stories or the personally held beliefs of some of its members (even the pastor). Given the beliefs of some “Catholics,” one could form the opinion the the Church supported abortion. When I hear someone state some off-the-wall belief of the Catholic church, I try to instruct him. If that fails, I ask him where that doctrine is taucht in the CCC.

When I want to know what some other church believes, I try to find it in the official writings of that church.
 
I voted, rather arbitrarily, for 1,2,3,& 6.(I feel that[whining] I should always have the option of 'other’w/essay attached).
#7 is a parody of evangelical belief.(I 😉 knew that as soon as I read it).
However, I have all kinds of objections to the other answers, too. (I am a very picky person…).
  1. Knock, knock, hello in there!?: You left out the Resurrection. It is part of the package! Otherwise: yup, that’s right.
    2.Baptism. This was a badly worded option. Methodists believe that baptism does indeed impart actual grace. We do not, however, believe that it saves    , per se    ; it does however make us a part of the church(no small thing!!), & it certainly smooths the Christian path no end, by predisposing us to further graces. So, yes:baptism.(which of you is hiding me when my :eek: fundamentalist Baptist family members start :banghead: me???)
    3:yup: .DUH!!! Like, obviously! (In :yup: anybody’s theology).
    4.& 5. Very tempting…But, good works & the virtues flow** from**, rather than leading **to **salvation.
    6.By grace alone.(Really the:thumbsup: definitive answer).
  2. See note, above…
 
We are saved when Jesus says we are at our judgement! There is nothing we can do to save ourselves, we can only provide merrit for Jesus to judge favorably upon us. Jesus can pick and choose who He wants to save based on any criteria he chooses. He even went to paradise to preach before he went to heaven after His death on the cross for our sins.
 
You left off an option:

“In accordance with Scripture alone: by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the greater glory of God alone”.
 
40.png
michaelp:
I don’t think this this option is fair.

“By faith alone. I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. Then I can sin all I want and it won’t matter. I don’t have to do any works of love or pray or anything. I can do what I want.”

It shows a great lack of understanding of the Evangelical postition.

Remember, when presenting the postition of another, do it in such a way that they would listen to it and say, “That is exactly what we believe.” Otherwise, it is the very definition of a straw man.

I am looking for an honest answer. Do all Catholics really believe that this is a fair discription of the Evangelical postition of how a person is saved?

Michael
Click to expand...
Hi Michael:tiphat:

I don’t believe that’s representative of all non-catholic soteriology - I agree with you. As a Catholic I did select all 6 without hesitation, though. I am so righteous! 😛 The entire poll is, of course, impossible to answer unless you are a Catholic or a **traditional **adherent to OSAS. The reason for this is because we all use the term “salvation” differently. Some limit it to eternal salvation only while Catholics (and Scripture) embrace temporal salvation as well. We(Protestants and Catholics) frequently have separate concepts behind identical terms and it leads to disharmony and impossibe - to - answer polls.
For example, would you be surprised that I, as a Catholic, could believe in OSAS?! Well the answer is simple - in my concept of OSAS, the “once saved” part, for me, is after the final judgement. If you hold this view, that your complete salvation does not occur until after this life, then I don’t see a problem with it. It basically becomes nothing more than saying once you’ve been accepted into heaven you are there forever. Probably a stupid example…

Phil

How have you been? I hope well. I have missed our dialogue and was afraid that you had disappeared along with Katholicos, Pax, et al, but alas you all hang in the "noncatholic religions section only. I have been over in “Apologetics” for a while…
 
40.png
cestusdei:
You can choose more then one answer. Hint: the top 6 encompass what the Catholic Church teaches.
Click to expand...

Are we talking about justification, or about sanctification ?​

:hmmm:

IIRC, the CC sees a distinction between the two, whereas not all specifically Protestant theologies would do so.

“Salvation through works” looks like outright Pelagianism 😦 :bigyikes: :eek: :tsktsk: - if we can be saved by works, salvation is no more by grace: and we might as well tear up Romans & Galatians, and a lot of St. Augustine as well. ##
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top