How are we saved?

[CentralFLJames]

What I’m getting at is that a Christian should not be so certain of their eternal destiny as to not be working it out with at least a measure of “fear and trembling”.

Phillipians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.



James

 

[sandusky]

By His Mercy:

We all agree on that. But I speak of the details. Imputed justification only? Any sanctification required on judgment day to avoid condemnation? Etc.

There’s no condemnation for the believer.
By His Mercy:

Of course…works are a result of God saving someone. But they’re needed on judgment day…

The believer will produce fruit because it’s God’s will that He will.
By His Mercy:

I don’t think imputation is all that’s necessary on judgment day.

I think that’s all that’s necessary.
By His Mercy:

Let me ask you about that…do you follow the Reformed teaching of justification by 1) forgiveness of sin, plus 2) the imputation of Jesus’ perfect life of obedience? That would help me understand where you’re coming from.

Yes, that’s what I said earlier, the believer is forgiven all sin, and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him when he believes.

 

[sandusky]

CentralFLJames:

At arriving at this you just invented yet another top level religion or philosophy to put forward yet another secular teaching of man. Where is this in the bible? You are not a Pope Sandusky and are a mere fallible man or woman. You have no basis or pedigree to make these categories to form false dichotomies that lead to false conclusions.

Without realizing it what you have said here is this:

1. I, Sandusky The Infallible have hereby proclaimed that I know what categories of choices we all have. These are:
   1-1) The Religion of Divine Accomplishment and
   1-2) The Religion of Human Achievement.
2. I, Sandusky the Infallible have hereby proclaimed myself exempt from a Religion of Human Achievement and dictate that God’s religion MUST be one of Divine Accomplishment since this is the only thing that conforms to my way of seeing things.

LOL.

CentralFLJames:

What you fail to consider is the very nature of God. That nature among other things is simple and indivisible and has non-created aspects which through some mystery simultaneously and perfectly encompass Love, Justice, Mercy etc. while the essence of God is The Trinity. You try to apply an limited human attribute to God called “Accomplishment” as the essence of Religion. Yet you fail to consider the most basic thing we know about God - LOVE AND RELATIONSHIPS (Trinity with each Divine Person, Trinity with Man and Man to Trinity and Man to Man). Therefor you miss the closer notion of what our real Religious choices are:

1. A Mystical Two-Way Loving Relationship that is compelled by grace and responded to by will and deed and
2. To not respond to love and to deliberately choose to alienate oneself from God.

Thus there are only two objective outcomes: 1) An Eternal Beatitude of Love with God in Heaven or 2) An Eternal estrangement from God with oneself and one’s own beliefs.

*"I, CentralFLJames the Infallible have hereby proclaimed myself exempt from…*ah, never mind, you get the picture, don’t you Pope James?

 

[sandusky]

Not at all. Just because God has accomplished our salvation, doesn’t mean that he doesn’t require things from us to access this salvation.

…and that, not out from you, that no one should boast…

 

[CentralFLJames]

LOL.

*"I, CentralFLJames the Infallible have hereby proclaimed myself exempt from…*ah, never mind, you get the picture, don’t you Pope James?

The difference SD is that I am not inventing things out of thin air like you are. I am just correcting you by summarizing what the early church has always taught from the beginning.

James

 

[Philthy]

sandusky;:

Those splits after Luther are denominations.

Oh sure…when Protestants split its not really a split - even when some of them claim - like the CC - that you can lose your salvation. But somehow its all the CC’s fault… I dont know, I sense and axe to grind. But, of course, thats just my opinion…

 

[sandusky]

The difference SD is that I am not inventing things out of thin air like you are. I am just correcting you by summarizing what the early church has always taught from the beginning.

James

Which early church would that be? The church of the apostles, or the church that thought she replaced Israel and inherited all of the promises thereof?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Which early church would that be? The church of the apostles, or the church that thought she replaced Israel and inherited all of the promises thereof?

Maybe he meant the church that Sandusky invented on CAF when he (she?) needed something to illustrate that OBVIOUSLY the Catholic church is not the church of the apostles.

If you really believe that the Catholic church is not the church Christ founded, please show me some evidence to back up that claim. If it’s true, then I think we all deserve to know.

 

[sandusky]

Maybe he meant the church that Sandusky invented on CAF when he (she?) needed something to illustrate that OBVIOUSLY the Catholic church is not the church of the apostles.

I think he means the church to which he belongs at this moment.

 

[jean8]

Well we would say that believing that Jesus is sent to make it possible for all of us to live eternally with God is an essential first step. But we would go on to say that what is really necessary is not only believing but believing so much that we enter into a true loving relationship where we want to demonstrate our love not just by acclamations and words but also by deeds. We first have to be spiritually realigned and reformed through a water baptism since this is the way God told us to begin our relationship. After baptism we are like a new being suitable for God to transform into His children. So We would also qualify what we said prior about believing and entering into a loving relationship by saying that we humans are totally ill equipped to really please God on our own. Because of that God gives us His special divine graces that we may cooperate with to progressively learn how to love God and SERVE God and spiritually grow. I would also say that our initial belief comes from a thing called faith - itself a gift of God that we normally get through The Church. So now I would explain how important the church is as our family and how we all help each other to grow in the faith and develop progressively deeper belief that touches us intellectually and spiritually at our core. I would explain the sacraments that are availble only through the Church and how they are like special channels to grace to help us deal with “being human” and to overcome our old nature that tends to want to hold us back.

I would probably say that we start off like a child learning how to walk and as we get stronger and learn how to walk and mature we are able to express our love in a more adult way and progressively please God by responding more fully to His love. I would explain the nature of grace and how it always proves itself and return a greater good to God and permits us to do good works for God and perhaps help others come to know Him too or let’s us help our spiritual family with our personal gifts. But I would caution that we mus trust in God to save us at the same time we cooperate with God and not resist his love and even on occasions take the harder path rather than the easier path since all who are baptised into Christ will be called to serve and even to suffer and prove that our faith and love is not just superficial and just “for the reward” but out of love and the intrinsic reward we get in knowing we can please such an awesome God who is higher above us than all the stars and galaxies in the night sky.

That’s enough to get people seeing the basics and asking questions…

James

james,
Acts 2:38 reads, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This was the message that Peter first gave to the Jews. verse 41 :Those who accepted the mesaage were baptized, about three thousand were added to their number that day.”
(By faith.)

Eph.2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”
Eph,1: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameness in His sight.” :
I have written a few passages that guide us to God’s truth. It is our job to find out what they mean. Ask your priest or look them up in a Commentary.

God bless,
jean8

 

[Philthy]

… good works done for the right reason will not only immediately benefit others and glorify Christ, but will receive eternal rewards (1 Cor. 3:11-15). But salvation itself is gifted (upon faith in Christ), not rewarded.

These rewards you speak of - do they influence our experience of Heaven? In other words, will the eternal happiness of those with great rewards exceed the eternal happiness of those with less?
Yes or No please.

 

[Philthy]

No. James is not talking in the context of “assurance of salvation faith.” He’s exhorting, by example, to proper behavior and good works for their own immediate benefit and to the glory of Christ who redeemed them.

Sorry, I dont get why this topic- as you explain it - is presented within a context of faith and salvation. This explanation makes no sense of much of what James says regarding works - things like, “Do you need proof ,you moron, that faith without works is useless?” That simply does not fit your spin IMO. Certainly it is true that good works glorify God but to somehow try and make that the reason James put forth his exhortation to good works simply falls flat on its face when one openly and honestly reads the entire chapter.
You never answered my question BTW. You said, in explaining James’ discussion of works, that he was basically illustrating

"

The difference between a true faith and a mere said faith (Ja. 2:14-18). Don’t lift him out of context."And I asked you, “So just to be clear, are you saying that one cannot have assurance of salvation faith apart from doing good?”

And so far you have balked. What say you?

 

[moondweller]

What I’m getting at is that a Christian should not be so certain of their eternal destiny as to not be working it out with at least a measure of “fear and trembling”.

You’re alluding to the Phil. 2:12 passage where Paul encourages the church at Philippi to katergazomai, carry through, “keep on working out” (continuous present tense) the deliverance (salvation) of the church into a state of Christian maturity, with fear and trembling.

“Fear and trembling” is an idiomatic expression for a humble frame of mind:1 Cor 2:2-5 “For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.”

2 Cor 7:15 “His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling.”

Eph 6:5 "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;"This is seen quite vividly in context since Paul previously directs his readers to Christ Himself as the epitome of humility in Phil. 2:2-8."Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not {merely} look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Unlike the first Adam, who made a frantic attempt to seize equality with God (Gen. 3:5), the Son emptied Himself by becoming a Servant and humbly accepted that role all the way to death by crucifixion, His death as our Substitute for the forgiveness of sins.

Paul, in context, was exhorting the church at Philippi to continue in that same humble frame of mind to Christian maturity. The putting aside of all personal rights and interest, like Christ, in order to insure the welfare of others.

The idiomatic expression “fear and trembling” has nothing to do with living out one’s life with the fear of losing salvation.

Paul goes on to say that in his own life whatever gains he had he now counts as loss, useless, even a hindrance, because they had to be unlearned for the sake of walking by faithhil. 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from (the principle of) law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"The contrast Paul presents here is works-righteousness (based on the principle of law) vs. faith-righteousness (based on the principle of grace), which, the latter is given (freely) by God. It’s Paul’s most concise statement of justification by faith alone.

Phil. 3:12: "Not that I have already attained it (see vs. 10), or have already become perfect (full knowledge and perfect conformity),“does not refer to his hope of attaining salvation (a gross misinterpretation), but to his practical experience of knowing Christ (His death and the power of His resurrection, vs. 10). A reference to his experiential/practical sanctification in this present life, not his salvation. He says, “…but I press on so that I may lay hold of (subjective) that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus” (objective).IOW, Paul, in this life, continuously presses forward in his experiential sanctification in view of that which is already his in Christ. A perfection which cannot be attained in our present, unredeemed, unglorified bodies (obviously some in Philippi were teaching they could, as do some today - “supersaints” and theosis”). But concerning this body he sayshil 3:20-21 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."Only then will “perfection” be experientially realized - and that too by the power and grace of God toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[moondweller]

These rewards you speak of - do they influence our experience of Heaven? In other words, will the eternal happiness of those with great rewards exceed the eternal happiness of those with less?
Yes or No please.

NO! Phil, what do you think Jesus was talking about in Matt. 20:1-16?

 

[moondweller]

So just to be clear, are you saying that one cannot have assurance of salvation faith apart from doing good? And so far you have balked. What say you?

I answered you. In context James is not teaching on assurance of salvation. Why do you insist on putting him into a context that does not exist? Good works are not an assurance of salvation. The work that Christ has DONE, however, is.

According to God’s Word, the true believer’s assurance is a vacant cross and an empty tomb:"Rom 4:22-25 Therefore it (Abraham’s faith) was also credited to him (by God) as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification."Our sins imputed to Him, His righteousness imputed to us. :extrahappy: That’s assurance, based on God’s Word.

 

[sandusky]

You’re alluding to the Phil. 2:12 passage where Paul encourages the church at Philippi to katergazomai, carry through, “keep on working out” (continuous present tense) the deliverance (salvation) of the church into a state of Christian maturity, with fear and trembling.

“Fear and trembling” is an idiomatic expression for a humble frame of mind:1 Cor 2:2-5 “For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.”

2 Cor 7:15 “His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling.”

Eph 6:5 "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;"This is seen quite vividly in context since Paul previously directs his readers to Christ Himself as the epitome of humility in Phil. 2:2-8."Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not {merely} look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Unlike the first Adam, who made a frantic attempt to seize equality with God (Gen. 3:5), the Son emptied Himself by becoming a Servant and humbly accepted that role all the way to death by crucifixion, His death as our Substitute for the forgiveness of sins.

Paul, in context, was exhorting the church at Philippi to continue in that same humble frame of mind to Christian maturity. The putting aside of all personal rights and interest, like Christ, in order to insure the welfare of others.

The idiomatic expression “fear and trembling” has nothing to do with living out one’s life with the fear of losing salvation.

Paul goes on to say that in his own life whatever gains he had he now counts as loss, useless, even a hindrance, because they had to be unlearned for the sake of walking by faithhil. 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from (the principle of) law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"The contrast Paul presents here is works-righteousness (based on the principle of law) vs. faith-righteousness (based on the principle of grace), which, the latter is given (freely) by God. It’s Paul’s most concise statement of justification by faith alone.

Phil. 3:12: "Not that I have already attained it (see vs. 10), or have already become perfect (full knowledge and perfect conformity),“does not refer to his hope of attaining salvation (a gross misinterpretation), but to his practical experience of knowing Christ (His death and the power of His resurrection, vs. 10). A reference to his experiential/practical sanctification in this present life, not his salvation. He says, “…but I press on so that I may lay hold of (subjective) that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus” (objective).IOW, Paul, in this life, continuously presses forward in his experiential sanctification in view of that which is already his in Christ. A perfection which cannot be attained in our present, unredeemed, unglorified bodies (obviously some in Philippi were teaching they could, as do some today - “supersaints” and theosis”). But concerning this body he sayshil 3:20-21 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."Only then will “perfection” be experientially realized - and that too by the power and grace of God toward us in Christ Jesus.

.
You’ve completely “nailed that down.”
.

 

[guanophore]

Well praise the Lord. Why are you here?

I think he is trying to convince us that the Catholic Church went off the rails shortly after the Apostles died.

 

[guanophore]

As I said earlier, Phil, your wording made me think of the Mt 18 parable.

The imperative is when you pray, “say…” No instruction to confess specific sins is given, but a general entreaty for forgiveness.

Well, the question is, why ask for that, if it has already been eternally given? He is teaching this prayer to believers, isn’t that, then, just a waste of breath, asking God for what they were already given? It seems to me that this would make the Lord’s Prayer just “vain repetition.”

 

[Philthy]

NO!

So there is, in reality, no significant eternal consequence. So everytime an admonition in Scripture appears in relation to eternal life and you allude to its effect on our “Heavenly rewards” it really is a meaningless, empty threat…a dodge. It means absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. In your own words there is no difference between eternal full with “heavenly rewards” and eternal life completely lacking them. So why utter statements like “It effects our heavenly reward” when, in fact, it is a meaningless statement?

Phil, what do you think Jesus was talking about in Matt. 20:1-16?

I dont think about it, Im concentrating on the above issue.

 

[Philthy]

I answered you. In context James is not teaching on assurance of salvation. Why do you insist on putting him into a context that does not exist?

I dont believe I have created the context, I believe your theology of “Salvation through faith alone” and logic creates the context.
You claim Scripture teaches salvation through faith alone.
James simply has a discussion about what constitutes faith. His discussion mentions belief alone, and he clearly establishes that belief alone does not result in salvation. He then goes on to discuss works - in the same discussion - and guess what? He condemns the very notion of faith “alone”. I dont think I am insisting on placing in a context - the context of salvation is always in play in Scripture - the question is to what degree.