How are we saved?

[By_His_Mercy]

Hi Sandusky, and up-front thanks for the dialog!

There’s no condemnation for the believer.

Yes, but how. Does one go through Rom 2:5-10 and have to “pass”? Or maybe only the reprobate go through that and all fail?
Is imputation enough? Or do we have to show change in our own bodies (“I was hungry and you fed Me”). The RCC teaches that inherent change is necessary. That aligns with the sheep and goats, Gal 6:7-9, 1 Cor 11:32, John 5:28-29, etc. I don’t think these passages speak of imputed works, but works God did in our own bodies.

The believer will produce fruit because it’s God’s will that He will.

But are they needed to avoid the condemnation along with the world? Are they needed to be moved over with the sheep? Are they needed to be separated as in John 5:28-29?

John 5:28-29

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Are these imputed deeds or real deeds done in our own bodies? Remember, the CCC teaches that the works are gifts (CCC 2007-2011)…it says they’re not “strict merit”…these are derivative merits since God gave them. That’s all…

I think that’s all that’s necessary.

But my problem is that the details of the judgment doesn’t include that. We’re to be saved if have faith and hold fast (e.g., 1 Cor 15:1-4) but that doesn’t explain how we’ll be saved. If heaven requires holiness, God can make us holy (and forgive the shortcomings) to get us in. That can be part of the “how” we’re saved.

Yes, that’s what I said earlier, the believer is forgiven all sin, and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him when he believes.

Yes, I’ve seen this as far back as Calvin, then here on the American side with theologians like Hodge and Berkof (their Systematic Theologies). But I just never bought into that. I think that when we fall short (sin) and are forgiven, we should be considered as if we never sinned…isn’t that what forgiveness is? Why have this other imputation? I believe in the first (although we disagree on when sins are forgiven) but I never understood the need for the second part. Why can’t sin be forgiven to make us righteous, and God’s workmanship in us later be the “visible tag” that identifies us for separation at the judgment?

Look at what Calvin does with Rom 8…

John Calvin wrote in his Institutes: (III. xi. 23)

You see that our righteousness is not in ourselves, but in Christ; that the only way in which we become possessed of it is by being made partakers with Christ, since with Him we possess all riches. There is nothing repugnant to this in what he elsewhere says: “God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us” (Romans 8:3, 4). Here the only fulfillment to which he refers is that which we obtain by imputation.

But look at Rom 8:3-4 (Calvin left out v. 4b!! - the underlined part)

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

So Calvin omits the underlined part, and says the “only fulfillment” of the righteousness of the law is obtained by imputation…not fulfillment by walking according to the Spirit (which immediately follows in the text).

This really has bothered me over the years.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment (unto condemnation), but has passed out of death (in Adam) into life” (in Christ).

But this doesn’t explain how we avoid the condemnation…it’s just the “what” (not condemned), but not how that’s done. Does God change us so we’ll “pass” Rom 2:5-10? John 5:28-29? Or are these works imputed to us? Or are we imputed righteousness and these works don’t have to be there?

I agree with Paul:Rom 8:1 “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Yes, but Paul has “run-on” thoughts (I’ve translated a lot of Paul…sentences can go on forever…and even if not, his thoughts do…they can get resolved/completed several verses later.)

Here, one could go with the KJV (majority text…what the Church basically had until this past century…)

Rom 8:1 (KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Perhaps this is why believers won’t be condemned…they are changed by the Spirit and “pass” that way.

For instance,
Gal 6:7-9
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

A condition God will have to do in our own bodies!

But back to Rom 8…vv. 1-4 this time…

Rom 8:1-4
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

So verse 4 might explain the “how” we’re not condemned.

The true believer is no longer in Adam but is now “in Christ” (resurrected). That’s what it means to “pass out of death and into life.” Christ Himself is the believer’s life. The true believer is now seen as to having died with Him (“unto sin,” “once for all”) and raised to new life in Him (Rom. 6). The true believer is now and forever identified “in Christ,” the “Last Adam,” the “Second Man.”

Yes, and we’re reconciled if we hold fast (Col 1:22-23), we’re saved if we hold fast (1 Cor 15:1-4), we’re in Christ’s household if we hold fast (Heb 3:6) and we’re partakers of Christ if we hold fast (Heb 3:14). So if there’s details given, I always include them. Of course salvation is a gift, so God will have to ensure those He is saving will hold fast. But they’re in Scripture…so I always fold them in also!

Salvation and the assurance of it is based on Divine revelation, not left to man’s speculation and teachings based on unbelief in God’s Word.

Yes, we’re saved if we hold fast! Straight from Scripture!

 

[By_His_Mercy]

I believe in salvation by grace through faith…

Yes, but there’s election and calling. Yes, faith is given, as well as sanctification. So one could also say “through faith and sanctification”.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

"According to Divine revelation God judicially forgives the believer of all sins through the cross of Christ (Col. 2:13-14) to the end that He is just when He saves the sinner BY GRACE through FAITH (in Christ).John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Yes, and also through sanctification.

Rom 6:22
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."The Matt. 25 judgment is one of separation (sheep from goats, believers from unbelievers), not salvation. Nor is it the final judgment which is the judgment of the “dead.” A judgment which has nothing to do with those made alive in Christ; those who do not come into judgment/condemnation but have “passed out of death into LIFE.”

Yes, we’re spiritually alive. But that’s present tense. Also in Scripture: We’re reconciled if we hold fast (Col 1:22-23), we’re saved if we hold fast (1 Cor 15:1-4), we’re in Christ’s household if we hold fast (Heb 3:6) and we’re partakers of Christ if we hold fast (Heb 3:14).

All of this is true at the same time. We have life (present tense) and if we hold fast we’re reconciled, saved, etc. (the future). These can stand true at the same time.

We can be given life again…

1 Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

And the Lord disciplines us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32). If we were justifed once-for-all, this wouldn’t make sense. The work God does in us (sanctification) is needed so we won’t be condemned along with the world (final justification).

 

[moondweller]

So there is, in reality, no significant eternal consequence.

Eternal consequence? As meaning the more rewards one accrues the greater “happiness” (your word) he’ll experience in heaven? Concluding that one’s joy in heaven is directly related to the “rewards” one will receive? That when Paul says in 1 Cor. 3:14 "If any man’s work which he has built on it (the foundation laid, which is Christ) remains, he will receive a reward,"you interpret “reward” there as being given greater happiness in heaven than the one who receives less reward (1 Cor. 3:15)?

If so, then I think your problem is allowing the distorted values of this cosmos (fallen world system) to affect your interpretation of Scripture and especially in respect to heavenly things. First of all, Scripture provides no detail on those rewards. Secondly, you might be deluded by the the false idea that the more one has the “happier” one will be. Many in this world cling to that philosophy even though it flies in the face of reality. How many have achieved great “reward” here on earth only to find their lives, and the lives of their family in utter ruin? Jesus Himself said:Luke 9:25 "For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?"The believer’s eternal joy is directly related to his relationship with Christ, knowing God and being known by Him; which is eternal LIFE:John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."Salvation has to do with LIFE. As Jesus said, the passing “out of death into life.” All true believers enter into this “life” through faith in Jesus Christ. One believer is not given more “life” in Christ than another. This life (eternal) is given by grace (unmerited, divine favor). It’s gifted, not rewarded (Rom. 6:23). All the redeemed in Christ, regardless of future “rewards,” will experience the same heavenly joy of life in Christ Jesus because that life is gifted solely by God’s GRACE. It has nothing to do with “rewards,” but all to do with the riches of His grace:2 Cor 8:9 “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.”

So everytime an admonition in Scripture appears in relation to eternal life and you allude to its effect on our “Heavenly rewards” it really is a meaningless, empty threat…a dodge.

I don’t interpret admonishments in Scripture to holy living during our stay on earth as having any relation to eternal life (i.e., gaining it or losing it). Holy living (or lack of), by sheer cause and effect, will certainly affect the Christian worker’s reward. That’s why Paul says in respect to the work of the ministry committed to him by Christ:1 Cor 9:23-27 “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but {only} one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then {do it} to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified” (Gr. adokimos, meaning here “unapproved.”)Paul does not have salvation in mind here, but reward of service (see v. 17). Salvation and eternal life are gifted (Gr. dorean; meaning, “for nothing,” “without cause”), not rewarded (caused).

It means absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. In your own words there is no difference between eternal full with “heavenly rewards” and eternal life completely lacking them.

Well, I hope you can see I see a vast difference between the gift of “eternal life” through faith in Christ and heavenly rewards through service.

So why utter statements like “It effects our heavenly reward” when, in fact, it is a meaningless statement?

Well, if you’re quoting me I’ll have to know the context.

I dont think about it, Im concentrating on the above issue.

I asked you because I think it pertains directly to the issue.

the context of salvation is always in play in Scripture - the question is to what degree.

No it isn’t. This is the reason you often fail to interpret Scripture according to its context. Every admonition to holy living or good works you interpret as a condition of salvation. That’s what happens when you refuse to accept divine GRACE as the means of salvation and eternal LIFE as a divine gift.

 

[fhansen]

You’re alluding to the Phil. 2:12 passage where Paul encourages the church at Philippi to katergazomai, carry through, “keep on working out” (continuous present tense) the deliverance (salvation) of the church into a state of Christian maturity, with fear and trembling.

MD, you’ve got more pat answers than a JW! And, as with them, there are scripture verses that can be employed to back up just about any theology. So a person has to eventually decide for themselves where the voice of truth and integrity is coming from.

If you prefer to read Phil 2 as “keep on working out your salvation with humility”, I’ll say, Exactly; humility is what’s lacking in the Reformed attitude towards God and salvation-even if I suspect the verse has been watered down a bit in that translation.

And I’m sure you’ll have an answer for other verses that don’t fit your theology quite so well but those other verses aren’t lacking in the bible -which is precisely why Catholics know that Scripture alone-without an appointed authority to interpret it- simply cannot serve as ones’ source of truth about Gods’ plan for mankind.

But I’ll play the game for now even though it may well be an exercise in futility. It’s not easy being freed from heresy but on the other hand I’m convinced that if a person continues to seek, they’ll end up concluding that there can’t be any Christian church other than the Catholic one. These have probably already been discussed but I’m not going back to look now:

**See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off". Rom. 11:22

“I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me”. 1 Cor. 4:4

“He who endures to the end will be saved”. Matt 10:23

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?**

But also the parable of the farmer sowing seed in Matt 13 as well as the talents and the ten virgins in Matt 25 all depict grace given, grace received, and grace rejected. ,

Man knows intuitively that his response- what he does- counts-that he should be rewarded for doing what’s right and punished for not. But he’s always trying to escape the punishment part while evading doing what’s right. And Reformed theology jumped in and took the opportunity to fill that wayward desire in man by condemning the teachings of the CC instead of her abuses. So now we have “churches” that maintain ridiculous notions such as that Jesus didn’t really mean it when He said, Be perfect as He is perfect, holy as He is holy. And that‘s why the Reformed position is dangerous-it gives people an “escape clause” from needing to achieve the very perfection God is striving for in us.

The CC can’t be likened to a Pharisee-clean on the outside and filthy on the inside. In fact, she’s the opposite. She’s soiled her garments at times, like we all have, by not heeding her own message but on the inside, where her heart and soul lie, Gods’ seen to it that the message has been kept as pristine as when she first received in from the Lord centuries ago.

Heaven and sin are inherently incompatible-they’re mutually exclusive. We don’t enter heaven-we can’t experience it-until sin is removed from us- simply because sin is our attachment to ungodly things. So God can’t be mocked. Those to whom sinned is merely non-imputed will not enter heaven. Gods’ purpose is to restore man to the heights from which he’s fallen-not just pretend that he’s been restored. It’s not just our beings He wants united with Him-it’s our wills with His will-and that very idea makes no sense unless our wills are free to ignore His.

 

[Philthy]

Eternal consequence? As meaning the more rewards one accrues the greater “happiness” (your word) he’ll experience in heaven?

I dont know MD, I dont use the term. You’re the one who refers to it as if it means something - at least partially - related to what we experience as a reward here on earth. If it doesnt have any relationship to what reward means in our earthly life, it means nothing to me.

Concluding that one’s joy in heaven is directly related to the “rewards” one will receive?

Im asking you what you mean when you use it and why its mentioned in Scripture. And ISTM that you havent a clue other than to insist it has nothing to do with Salvation.

you interpret “reward” there as being given greater happiness in heaven than the one who receives less reward (1 Cor. 3:15)?

I am asking what *you *mean when you use it in the context of good works and heaven. I dont think it should be that difficult for you to respond.

First of all, Scripture provides no detail on those rewards.

Uhh, is this your way of saying you have no idea what you mean when you use the term??? It sure sounds like it.

Secondly, you might be deluded by the the false idea that the more one has the “happier” one will be.

Now you are mixing worldly pleasure with the doing good which yields heavenly reward. That is not an analogy that is worth exploring.
It would appear that while you have plenty of criticism to offer you have no idea what the effect or purpose of heavenly rewards are nor why they would ever be mentioned in Scripture. Is there a Scriptural reason why you would assume that they are not at least reflected by our limited notion of reward that we experience here on earth??

Salvation has to do with LIFE. … It’s gifted, not rewarded (Rom. 6:23). All the redeemed in Christ, regardless of future “rewards,” will experience the same heavenly joy of life in Christ Jesus because that life is gifted solely by God’s GRACE. It has nothing to do with “rewards,” but all to do with the riches of His grace:

Assuming this is true it is simply bewildering why Christ would separate the sheep and the goats according to their good deeds on the day of judgement when, in fact, those deeds are irrelevent.
Beyond bewildering actually - its ridiculous. Somehow they are important in time and eternity.

don’t interpret admonishments in Scripture to holy living during our stay on earth as having any relation to eternal life (i.e., gaining it or losing it). Holy living (or lack of), by sheer cause and effect, will certainly affect the Christian worker’s reward.

MD - please - dont refer to heavenly rewards if you have no idea what they are and no idea whether they are important. Honestly - what is the point of using the term if you cant explain what you mean when you use it. Furthermore Paul clearly talks about running the race to win an IMPERISHABLE wreath - that is something that does not apply to earthly goods, but implies something eternal. You can deny it all you wish, but its plain to see.

Well, I hope you can see I see a vast difference between the gift of “eternal life” through faith in Christ and heavenly rewards through service.

I’d be hoping if I were you as well because your explanations havent really gone very far. Heavenly rewards through service remains completely untouched by you except for your insistence that it is quantitavely and qualitatively different than salvation and our experience of eternal life. Yet why is it in Scripture?

Well, if you’re quoting me I’ll have to know the context.

Choose your own context and tell what a heavenly reward is in that context - you haven’t done that once. Why is it so difficult?

This is the reason you often fail to interpret Scripture according to its context. Every admonition to holy living or good works you interpret as a condition of salvation. That’s what happens when you refuse to accept divine GRACE as the means of salvation and eternal LIFE as a divine gift.

Not at all - I havent been discussing good works as a condition for salvation. It is you who has projected the issue into the discussion. Its really the only thing you wish to discuss with Catholics AFAICT. I simply asked whether they affect our experience of salvation in an analogous way to rewards affecting our earthly experience, and if not, what is the point of using the term. The fact remains that you havent the slightest clue what Paul, Christ or any other NT author means when he refers to heavenly rewards and how they might affect the gift of salvation. Yet you have unjustifiably separated any aspect of salvation from the reality of heavenly reward. And you have done this when Christ clearly spoke of an eternal event -judgement - and when Paul implied an eternal event as well - our “impershible wreath” - and when James referred to the faith that lacks works and rhetorically asks - “will such a faith save you?” You may wish to ignore it, but salvation is in view in each of those discussions.

 

[sandusky]

Hi Sandusky, and up-front thanks for the dialog!

Yes, but how. Does one go through Rom 2:5-10 and have to “pass”? Or maybe only the reprobate go through that and all fail?
Is imputation enough? Or do we have to show change in our own bodies (“I was hungry and you fed Me”). The RCC teaches that inherent change is necessary. That aligns with the sheep and goats, Gal 6:7-9, 1 Cor 11:32, John 5:28-29, etc. I don’t think these passages speak of imputed works, but works God did in our own bodies.

But are they needed to avoid the condemnation along with the world? Are they needed to be moved over with the sheep? Are they needed to be separated as in John 5:28-29?

John 5:28-29

28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Are these imputed deeds or real deeds done in our own bodies? Remember, the CCC teaches that the works are gifts (CCC 2007-2011)…it says they’re not “strict merit”…these are derivative merits since God gave them. That’s all…

But my problem is that the details of the judgment doesn’t include that. We’re to be saved if have faith and hold fast (e.g., 1 Cor 15:1-4) but that doesn’t explain how we’ll be saved. If heaven requires holiness, God can make us holy (and forgive the shortcomings) to get us in. That can be part of the “how” we’re saved.

Yes, I’ve seen this as far back as Calvin, then here on the American side with theologians like Hodge and Berkof (their Systematic Theologies). But I just never bought into that. I think that when we fall short (sin) and are forgiven, we should be considered as if we never sinned…isn’t that what forgiveness is? Why have this other imputation? I believe in the first (although we disagree on when sins are forgiven) but I never understood the need for the second part. Why can’t sin be forgiven to make us righteous, and God’s workmanship in us later be the “visible tag” that identifies us for separation at the judgment?

Look at what Calvin does with Rom 8…

John Calvin wrote in his Institutes: (III. xi. 23)

But look at Rom 8:3-4 (Calvin left out v. 4b!! - the underlined part)

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

So Calvin omits the underlined part, and says the “only fulfillment” of the righteousness of the law is obtained by imputation…not fulfillment by walking according to the Spirit (which immediately follows in the text).

This really has bothered me over the years.

ISTM that you, as a recent revert, have explored both sides of the issue and decided that the Catholic position of justification by faith + works, is the correct position.

I wish you well in that.

As far as Calvin leaving out Rom 8:4b, you might want to look at his commentary on Romans. He goes into the flesh, and the believer’s release from the guilt and penalty of the law on the basis of faith in Christ.

His commentaries are online, and should be no problem to find with a quick google.

 

[moondweller]

Yes, we’re spiritually alive. But that’s present tense. Also in Scripture: We’re reconciled if we hold fast (Col 1:22-23), we’re saved if we hold fast (1 Cor 15:1-4), we’re in Christ’s household if we hold fast (Heb 3:6) and we’re partakers of Christ if we hold fast (Heb 3:14).

Holding fast is a manifestation of reconciliation and salvation of those who are truly partakers of Christ and of His household - not a condition.

 

[moondweller]

I dont know MD, I dont use the term. You’re the one who refers to it as if it means something - at least partially - related to what we experience as a reward here on earth. If it doesnt have any relationship to what reward means in our earthly life, it means nothing to me.

Im asking you what you mean when you use it and why its mentioned in Scripture. And ISTM that you havent a clue other than to insist it has nothing to do with Salvation.

I am asking what *you *mean when you use it in the context of good works and heaven. I dont think it should be that difficult for you to respond.

Uhh, is this your way of saying you have no idea what you mean when you use the term??? It sure sounds like it.

Now you are mixing worldly pleasure with the doing good which yields heavenly reward. That is not an analogy that is worth exploring.
It would appear that while you have plenty of criticism to offer you have no idea what the effect or purpose of heavenly rewards are nor why they would ever be mentioned in Scripture. Is there a Scriptural reason why you would assume that they are not at least reflected by our limited notion of reward that we experience here on earth??

Assuming this is true it is simply bewildering why Christ would separate the sheep and the goats according to their good deeds on the day of judgement when, in fact, those deeds are irrelevent.
Beyond bewildering actually - its ridiculous. Somehow they are important in time and eternity.

MD - please - dont refer to heavenly rewards if you have no idea what they are and no idea whether they are important. Honestly - what is the point of using the term if you cant explain what you mean when you use it. Furthermore Paul clearly talks about running the race to win an IMPERISHABLE wreath - that is something that does not apply to earthly goods, but implies something eternal. You can deny it all you wish, but its plain to see.

I’d be hoping if I were you as well because your explanations havent really gone very far. Heavenly rewards through service remains completely untouched by you except for your insistence that it is quantitavely and qualitatively different than salvation and our experience of eternal life. Yet why is it in Scripture?

Choose your own context and tell what a heavenly reward is in that context - you haven’t done that once. Why is it so difficult?

Not at all - I havent been discussing good works as a condition for salvation. It is you who has projected the issue into the discussion. Its really the only thing you wish to discuss with Catholics AFAICT. I simply asked whether they affect our experience of salvation in an analogous way to rewards affecting our earthly experience, and if not, what is the point of using the term. The fact remains that you havent the slightest clue what Paul, Christ or any other NT author means when he refers to heavenly rewards and how they might affect the gift of salvation. Yet you have unjustifiably separated any aspect of salvation from the reality of heavenly reward. And you have done this when Christ clearly spoke of an eternal event -judgement - and when Paul implied an eternal event as well - our “impershible wreath” - and when James referred to the faith that lacks works and rhetorically asks - “will such a faith save you?” You may wish to ignore it, but salvation is in view in each of those discussions.

OK, Phil.

 

[Philthy]

OK, Phil.

 

[Philthy]

Holding fast is a manifestation of reconciliation and salvation of those who are truly partakers of Christ and of His household - not a condition.

The lack of this manifestation is not, however, an indication that one is* not* reconciled and saved. Therefore both the saved and the unsaved can manifest or not manifest such behavior.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

Holding fast is a manifestation of reconciliation and salvation of those who are truly partakers of Christ and of His household - not a condition.

The “if” denotes a condition. It will ultimately manifest itself in those that God is saving (salvation is all a gift). But it’s a condition also. Both are true at the same time.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

ISTM that you, as a recent revert, have explored both sides of the issue and decided that the Catholic position of justification by faith + works, is the correct position.

I wish you well in that.

Thanks! I can tell you love the Scriptures also. I look forward to future dialog. Also, let me add it’s not faith plus works of the flesh…it’s faith with God’s workmanship…unto good works prepared beforehand (you know the ref!). But at the sheep and goats, John 5:28-29, etc. the Christians will be identified and separated by God’s workmanship. E.g., the 1 Cor 11:32 thing…

As far as Calvin leaving out Rom 8:4b, you might want to look at his commentary on Romans. He goes into the flesh, and the believer’s release from the guilt and penalty of the law on the basis of faith in Christ.[/qtuoe]
Yes, I’ve read a lot of his Institutes…I’ve got it full of post-it notes with my issues…that was just one. I’ve seen this teaching trace through Hodge, Berkof, and recent Systematic Theologies like Wayne Grudem…so it’s definately in some evangelical churches too…not just mainline Reformed.

His commentaries are online, and should be no problem to find with a quick google.

Yes…I think I have them on CD-ROM also. Whew…so much data!

God bless you!
-BHM

 

[By_His_Mercy]

The lack of this manifestation is not, however, an indication that one is* not* reconciled and saved. Therefore both the saved and the unsaved can manifest or not manifest such behavior.

But it says we’re reconciled if we hold fast (Col 1:22-23), we’re saved if we hold fast (1 Cor 15:1-4). So why say if this “holding fast” is lacking, it doesn’t indicate one is reconciled and/or saved? It’s a conditional word…“if”. True, sometimes the unsaved don’t show it…we all have grumpy days. But then the Lord disciplines us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32)…which means that His workmanship in us after we convert (i.e., sanctification) is needed so that we won’t be condemned along with the world. So we do have to be in inherent shape (not just imputed shape). Non-believers don’t get such discipline.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

His commentaries are online, and should be no problem to find with a quick google.

Btw, I checked Calvin’s commentaries for 1 Cor 11:32…here’s what’s there…[underlining mine].

Calvin’s Commentaries - Commentary on 1 Cor 11:32

When he says — that we may not be condemned with the world, he intimates two things. The first is, that the children of this world, while they sleep on quietly and securely in their delights, — “Are quite confident, and not concerning themselves as to the judgment of God, sleep on in their pleasures and delights.” are fattened up, like hogs, for the day of slaughter (Jeremiah 12:3.) For though the Lord sometimes invites the wicked, also, to repentance by his chastisements, yet he often passes them over as strangers, — “It often happens that he overlooks them as strangers.” and allows them to rush on with impunity, until they have filled up the measure of their final condemnation. (Genesis 15:16.) This privilege, therefore, belongs to believers exclusively — that by punishments they are called back from destruction. The second thing is this — that chastisements are necessary remedies for believers, for otherwise they, too, would rush on to everlasting destruction, — “They would fall, as well as others, into everlasting destruction.” were they not restrained by temporal punishment.

So if once-for-all justification was true, one might ask why it needs to be supplemented to avoid eternal condemnation. I think justification has legal aspects (sins forgiven based on Jesus’ atonement) and sanctification…God’s workmanship in us (all gifts).

2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

Rom 6:21-23 (the free gift includes sanctification and the outcome…eternal life)

21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It all seems to fit together.

God bless you!

 

[sandusky]

Btw, I checked Calvin’s commentaries for 1 Cor 11:32…here’s what’s there…[underlining mine].

So if once-for-all justification was true, one might ask why it needs to be supplemented to avoid eternal condemnation.

One might ask that, and many have, and have run around in circles concerning that. Nevertheless, the important thing is that God does not allow the elect to be destroyed.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

One might ask that, and many have, and have run around in circles concerning that. Nevertheless, the important thing is that God does not allow the elect to be destroyed.

Yes, I believe we all believe that. The elect will persevere. But Protestants make God’s workmanship in the believer (sanctification) separate from justification. They say sanctification doesn’t keep one from being condemned…justification does. But I think here we see that justification includes sanctification…so I think the Catholic side is right. I think all of the “we must cooperate” stuff at Trent was dealing with retaining our free will (many thought Luther meant we had no free will)…not pelagianism or semipelagianism, both of which were condemned by the RCC long ago.

God bless you,

 

[eva6206213]

just learning from here!

 

[Philthy]

But it says we’re reconciled if we hold fast (Col 1:22-23), we’re saved if we hold fast (1 Cor 15:1-4). So why say if this “holding fast” is lacking, it doesn’t indicate one is reconciled and/or saved? It’s a conditional word…“if”. True, sometimes the unsaved don’t show it…we all have grumpy days. But then the Lord disciplines us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world (1 Cor 11:32)…which means that His workmanship in us after we convert (i.e., sanctification) is needed so that we won’t be condemned along with the world. So we do have to be in inherent shape (not just imputed shape). Non-believers don’t get such discipline.

Oh I agree totally-I was playing the devils advocate.
My original comment was intended to add understanding to MDs claim that “good works are a manifestation” of salvation, but not a condition of it. Such claims appear to make good sense until one presses the issue a little by exploring such questions as,
“Are good works, then, how you recognize someone as saved?” and,
“If one lacks such works is that an indication of a lack of salvation?”
And the answer from the OSAS adherent in each case is an emphatic…“No!” That response simply leaves us confused as to how good works are a “manifestation of salvation” when - in the context of OSAS theology - the unsaved can also manifest good works; and the saved can fail to manifest good works.
So why all the talk in Scripture about good works - especially in James? OSASers try to view his entire point of “A man is justified by works …” into “A man is shown to be saved by works…” when, in fact, they dont actually beleive a man is shown to be righteous by good works because, as I pointed out above, both the saved and unsaved can do good works, and both the saved and unsaved can fail to do them.

I have been enjoying your posts - keep up the “good work”!

 

[happymommy]

We are saved by believing that Jesus Christ is the Savior and asking Him into your heart to be your guide through this life and into the next. It’s really quite simple when you think about it. But you have to really believe He is your salvation. Not just believe He exisisted. You have to believe he died for you sins, confess those sins and make Him the biggest part of your life.