How are we saved?

[Nita]

Thanks for the post fhansen. An informative comparison between the Catholic and Protestant positions. Especially liked the Scripture passages you used to illumine the Catholic position.

Nita

 

[guanophore]

Define “faith.” Please don’t quote the Heb. 11:1 passage. What is the content of the Catholic “faith” that saves?

Content?

I can speak to the quality of it, not sure if that is different. The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith. We are saved for works of righteousness that God has created from the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them. So saving faith is a faith that works, it is a faith that produces fruits that befit repentance, it is an obedient faith, that makes Him Lord and Master of life.

As far as “content” were you asking about belief in the atoning propitiatory sacrifice of His blood?

 

[moondweller]

I am not comfortable with the way you summarized Catholic belief in terms of sin being the focus.

It is the main focus of Catholicism: (1) It’s what your sacrament of reconciliation/penance/forgiveness is concerned with; (2) you teach that the sacrifice of the Eucharist is expiatory; (3) and your “state of grace” is ruined by one mortal sin.

But the objective focus is on Christ as our savior.

Is it? Is He? You believe you have yet to “be saved.”

We try to emulate Him as best we can while assuming through faith that **He will give us every good grace necessary for our salvation/b].**Then He’s not truly your “Savior” (through whom you’ve been saved from your sins), but He’s your “provider,” of “graces” (undefined) through which you hope to merit eternal life.

But let me also say, that a focus on sin (and its avoidance) is not too teribly wrong either since to have a formed conscience about sin implies having a fundamental faith and belief in God.

Not really. In the Biblical sense belief in God is to be understood in the Abrahamic context (i.e., God’s promise, Rom. 4:16).Gen 15:5-6 "And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Then he believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord God) reckoned it (his belief in Him) to him as righteousness.The context here is not Abraham’s believing in God’s existence, but what God promised him he believed. In the same way, the belief by which God saves (forgives sins, redeems, justifies, reconciles, sanctifies and will glorify) the believer, is belief not in the mere existence of Christ and that He was crucified, buried and rose on the third day, but what God has SAID (in His written Word) that He accomplished through Him. This side of the cross it’s believing in what He has DONE on behalf of sinful mankind through the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, and that by believing He has promised eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; 6:40; 17:3; 1 Jn. 5:9-13).

This, Catholicism, with it sacramental system, has not believed. But through its sacraments is still seeking forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and the “hope” to have eternal life.

You only quoted a small bit of Heb 9:26. But that is too glossy and gives the false impression that there is universal salvation for ALL when we know that is not true. Salvation is only so many MAY BE saved - those who take advantage of the call and cooperate with God’s grace.

The context of Heb. 9:26 states nothing about cooperating with God’s grace. You’re imposing that Catholic notion into the text. It does state, however, that unlike the yearly Day of Atonement prescribed in the Law of Moses, which had no power to “put away sin” once for all, Christ in fact did “once for all” “by the sacrifice of Himself.” A one time, “it is finished,” sacrifice which put away sin once for all (time). It’s true that neither this verse, nor its context, teaches “universalism;” the idea that through the sacrifice of Christ all men are saved. But the gospel (good news) message to be believed is that through Christ’s “once for all” (time) sacrifice sin is forever put away, and it’s those who believe the glorious message (like Abraham) are the ones who eternally benefit by His sacrificial work. And for this reason the Apostles proclaimed forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14; 1 Jn. 2:1) through faith in Christ, i.e., believing what God has DONE through the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Israel’s Messiah.

Catholics of course believe this to be true at face value. But what we don’t believe is your wrong interpretation that because Christ died everyone (or at least those that say the magic words “I believe”) is free to sin without penalty.

I made no such interpretation. You don’t believe the message of that verse, that Christ has “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” If you did you would rejoice in that truth and discard your sacrament of “penance/reconciliation/forgiveness,” as well as your doctrine of “mortal” sins.

I agree, believers are never “free to sin” (see Rom. 6:1-2), and certainly not without natural, cause and effect consequences in this life. But all who have truly believed in Christ (what He accomplished through His sacrificial death for them) have died with Christ “unto” (to) sin, once for all (Rom. 6:8,10; Col. 3:3), and are now “freed from sin” (being now “in Christ”) and its eternal consequence (Rom. 6:7,18,22). But this you don’t believe. Unlike Abraham, you don’t believe what God has promised (Rom. 4:16).

Christ did not die to put an end to law. He did not die so we could all just continue having fun in sin without paying any mind to our consciences. Only a scrupulously minded person could interpret this verse as a free-ticket to sin.

His death did put an end to “the Law” with its ministry of death and condemnation = the Decalogue (2 Cor 3:6-9; Rom. 10:4). Unlike the “natural” man (1 Cor. 2:14), the “spiritual” man (1 Cor. 2:12, 15-16) understands that he has not been given a “free ticket to sin;” but what he does understand is all that he has been freely given through faith in Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 2:12): salvation (Eph. 2:8); justification (Rom. 3:24); eternal life (Rom. 6:23). He fully understands it’s free because Christ Himself paid the price for these, in full.

 

[runandsew]

It is the main focus of Catholicism: (1) It’s what your sacrament of reconciliation/penance/forgiveness is concerned with; (2) you teach that the sacrifice of the Eucharist is expiatory; (3) and your “state of grace” is ruined by one mortal sin.Is it? Is He? You believe you have yet to "be saved."Then He’s not truly your “Savior” (through whom you’ve been saved from your sins), but He’s your “provider,” of “graces” (undefined) through which you hope to merit eternal life.Not really. In the Biblical sense belief in God is to be understood in the Abrahamic context (i.e., God’s promise, Rom. 4:16).Gen 15:5-6 "And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Then he believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord God) reckoned it (his belief in Him) to him as righteousness.The context here is not Abraham’s believing in God’s existence, but what God promised him he believed. In the same way, the belief by which God saves (forgives sins, redeems, justifies, reconciles, sanctifies and will glorify) the believer, is belief not in the mere existence of Christ and that He was crucified, buried and rose on the third day, but what God has SAID (in His written Word) that He accomplished through Him. This side of the cross it’s believing in what He has DONE on behalf of sinful mankind through the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, and that by believing He has promised eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; 6:40; 17:3; 1 Jn. 5:9-13).

This, Catholicism, with it sacramental system, has not believed. But through its sacraments is still seeking forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and the “hope” to have eternal life.The context of Heb. 9:26 states nothing about cooperating with God’s grace. You’re imposing that Catholic notion into the text. It does state, however, that unlike the yearly Day of Atonement prescribed in the Law of Moses, which had no power to “put away sin” once for all, Christ in fact did “once for all” “by the sacrifice of Himself.” A one time, “it is finished,” sacrifice which put away sin once for all (time). It’s true that neither this verse, nor its context, teaches “universalism;” the idea that through the sacrifice of Christ all men are saved. But the gospel (good news) message to be believed is that through Christ’s “once for all” (time) sacrifice sin is forever put away, and it’s those who believe the glorious message (like Abraham) are the ones who eternally benefit by His sacrificial work. And for this reason the Apostles proclaimed forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14; 1 Jn. 2:1) through faith in Christ, i.e., believing what God has DONE through the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Israel’s Messiah.I made no such interpretation. You don’t believe the message of that verse, that Christ has “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” If you did you would rejoice in that truth and discard your sacrament of “penance/reconciliation/forgiveness,” as well as your doctrine of “mortal” sins.

I agree, believers are never “free to sin” (see Rom. 6:1-2), and certainly not without natural, cause and effect consequences in this life. But all who have truly believed in Christ (what He accomplished through His sacrificial death for them) have died with Christ “unto” (to) sin, once for all (Rom. 6:8,10; Col. 3:3), and are now “freed from sin” (being now “in Christ”) and its eternal consequence (Rom. 6:7,18,22). But this you don’t believe. Unlike Abraham, you don’t believe what God has promised (Rom. 4:16).His death did put an end to “the Law” with its ministry of death and condemnation = the Decalogue (2 Cor 3:6-9; Rom. 10:4). Unlike the “natural” man (1 Cor. 2:14), the “spiritual” man (1 Cor. 2:12, 15-16) understands that he has not been given a “free ticket to sin;” but what he does understand is all that he has been freely given through faith in Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 2:12): salvation (Eph. 2:8); justification (Rom. 3:24); eternal life (Rom. 6:23). He fully understands it’s free because Christ Himself paid the price for these, in full.

Wow, you really should read the entire bible, especially focusing on the New Testament instead of memorizing certain passages which when taken out of context can be used to prove many errant theological views.

 

[mesl4]

I’d like to say that I don’t understand why many Protestants think the way they do about salvation but I can’t because I used to think that way too. The differences are of a serious nature because one side says that we can’t be perfect enough to please God while the other side says we must be “perfect as He is perfect” in order to please Him-and enter heaven. They both claim that we’re saved by grace-grace which we cooperate with either by responding with faith or by responding with faith along with other dispositions and actions which would be expected of a being who’s in the process of genuine transformation-provided he’s given the time to accomplish this.

From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. From Luke 12:48

Protestants claim that Jesus fulfilled the Law so that we didn’t have to. Catholics claim that Jesus fulfilled the Law so that we could too because, after all, that’s what we were designed to do to begin with.

**“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Gal 6:7-8

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?.. 1Cor 6:9**

Protestant theology believes that God’s grace gives us a “free pass”, so to speak, into heaven while Catholics believe that His grace helps us to become worthy of heaven.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matt 5:17

Protestants believe we can’t fulfill the Law. Catholics believe we can’t fulfill the Law without grace-won on the cross by our Savior Jesus Christ. In fact we believe that we’re held to an even higher standard than before. Jesus says we can’t even have anger or lust in our hearts, let alone act on these impulses.

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. Rom 7:14-15
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! Romans 7:24-25

The New covenant is where the Law is “put in our hearts and written on our minds”, where we’ll no longer struggle to consciously observe the written law but instead observe it by the Spirit.

The Law was a teacher that couldn’t produce holiness in us. It only served to show us what we were not –by being a standard we couldn’t live up to by our on efforts. But this doesn’t prove the Law to be wrong-it proves us to be wrong-it proves us to be lacking in love. St Paul wasn’t rejecting the Law when he addressed it in Galatians and elsewhere-he was battling legalismlove

makes us worthy. When the time was ripe in human history, Jesus came to show us the truth-the truth that Adam and Eve had rejected. We need God in order to “have life and have it more abundantly”. Only God can elevate man to the lofty position he was designed for. But only man can admit to that and turn back to God to allow Him to accomplish the work that man can’t do on his own. We don’t become anything of value unless our own will is part of the process.

"This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections."
– Saint Augustine

Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:10

Love and sin are mutually exclusive-when we love, we don’t sin or break the law. And God is satisfied with nothing less than for love to be perfected in us.

That all sounds pretty much the way I’ve been taught as a Protestant. THere must be a lot of variations in Protestant beliefs. It sounds like as a Catholic, you have to be perfect or you won’t go to Heaven? As a Protestant, our will to be perfect leads us to try, but though we fail, Christ makes up the difference as we turn to him. Is that different from your beliefs?

Also, a big difference is that Catholics don’t see the “rites” or Sacraments as works, and we do - as I think Central Flames pointed out. They surely seem like works to gain salvation to me. Do you believe if someone doesn’t partake of all 7 sacraments they are not going to heaven? How is it any different than the ceremonial works of the OT? (washing/purification before meals, animal sacrifice, circumcision, and I don’t know what else). For Protestants, once we have faith, we are led to change but that leads us to actions written on our heart (fruits of the Holy Spirit). The sacraments are not things that we’d know about w/out being told so they’re not written on our hearts, right? THe Bible also says we ill be judged by how we live our lives. More blessing to those who lived more righteously, more punishment to those who did not. So, if someone preforms all the sacraments, but does not love, are they going to Heaven? We’d say no. There is no faith w/out love. Nothing means anything w/out love. God is love. KNowing Jesus leads us to love HIm and love others.

 

[mesl4]

This side of the cross it’s believing in what He has DONE on behalf of sinful mankind through the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, and that by believing He has promised eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; 6:40; 17:3; 1 Jn. 5:9-13).
, Christ in fact did “once for all” “by the sacrifice of Himself.” A one time, “it is finished,” sacrifice which put away sin once for all (time). It’s true that neither this verse, nor its context, teaches “universalism;” the idea that through the sacrifice of Christ all men are saved. But the gospel (good news) message to be believed is that through Christ’s “once for all” (time) sacrifice sin is forever put away, and it’s those who believe the glorious message (like Abraham) are the ones who eternally benefit by His sacrificial work. And for this reason the Apostles proclaimed forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14; 1 Jn. 2:1) through faith in Christ, i.e., believing what God has DONE through the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Israel’s Messiah.I made no such interpretation. You don’t believe the message of that verse, that Christ has “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” If you did you would rejoice in that truth and discard your sacrament of “penance/reconciliation/forgiveness,” as well as your doctrine of “mortal” sins.

I agree, believers are never “free to sin” (see Rom. 6:1-2), and certainly not without natural, cause and effect consequences in this life. But all who have truly believed in Christ (what He accomplished through His sacrificial death for them) have died with Christ “unto” (to) sin, once for all (Rom. 6:8,10; Col. 3:3), and are now “freed from sin” (being now “in Christ”) and its eternal consequence (Rom. 6:7,18,22). But this you don’t believe. Unlike Abraham, you don’t believe what God has promised (Rom. 4:16).His death did put an end to “the Law” with its ministry of death and condemnation = the Decalogue (2 Cor 3:6-9; Rom. 10:4). Unlike the “natural” man (1 Cor. 2:14), the “spiritual” man (1 Cor. 2:12, 15-16) understands that he has not been given a “free ticket to sin;” but what he does understand is all that he has been freely given through faith in Christ Jesus (1 Cor. 2:12): salvation (Eph. 2:8); justification (Rom. 3:24); eternal life (Rom. 6:23). He fully understands it’s free because Christ Himself paid the price for these, in full.

So what do you believe is the fate of those who do believe Christ died for our sin, but don’t care, and keep on sinning? THe Bible says there is no sacrifice left for them and they will not be saved. It seems to be only by our belief carried out by actions that we are saved. He died for everyone’s opportunity, but not everyone follows through w/the needed response.

 

[moondweller]

I’d like to say that I don’t understand why many Protestants think the way they do about salvation but I can’t because I used to think that way too.

First of all you show that you’ve never really understood the “Protestant,” Biblical view.

The differences are of a serious nature because one side says that we can’t be perfect enough to please God

An educated Protestant understands that God never did require perfection from Adam’s fallen race. Such righteousness had to be divinely provided (gifted) through another Adam, the Theanthopic Man, Jesus Christ, the “Second Man,” the “Last Adam” (see Rom. 5:12-21; Phil 3:9; 1 Cor. 15:45-47)

They both claim that we’re saved by grace-grace which we cooperate with

An educated Protestant doesn’t accept the unbiblical doctrine of a “cooperative grace.” He understands salvation to be a one time, divine act of sovereign GRACE at the time of true faith in Jesus Christ: “For by grace (singular, unmerited, divine favor) you have been saved (a completed, divine act of GRACE) through FAITH…”

Protestants claim that Jesus fulfilled the Law so that we didn’t have to.

An educated Protestant understands that Gentiles were never under the covenant of Law and that God never expected any man, Jew or Gentile (save the Theanthopic Man), to fulfill it. Jesus, the Second Man, the Last Adam, born a Jew, born under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5), did fulfill it.

Protestant theology believes that God’s grace gives us a “free pass”, so to speak, into heaven

An educated Protestant understands that the blood of Christ redeemed him from the slave market of sin: Greek:agorazo (Rev. 5:9; 14:4), meaning to purchase from the slave market of sin;
ekagorazo (Gal… 3:13: 4:5), meaning to purchase out of, never to return;

lutroo (Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:18), meaning to loose and set free. An educated Protestant understands that Christ’s shed blood PAID the price for our redemption, in full. It is because of this redemption that the educated Protestant knows (epiginosko) heaven is freely his, in which he has his citizenship and from where he awaits His Savior to transform his humble body into conformity with the body of His resurrected glory (Phil. 3:20-21).

An educated Protestant knows he cannot earn his way into heaven, but he has been “justified as a gift through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24).

Protestants believe we can’t fulfill the Law.

An educated Protestant knows the Law ended with Christ (Rom. 10:4) and men are called into a right relationship with God (justified) under the New Covenant, which is based on “better promises,” and which was inaugurated through Christ’s shed blood 2000 years ago.

Love and sin are mutually exclusive-when we love, we don’t sin or break the law. And God is satisfied with nothing less than for love to be perfected in us.

An educated Protestant understands that God is satisfied with nothing less than faith in what He has promised freely through the Person and sacrificial work of the Son incarnate.Heb 10:9-10 “…then He said, “Behold I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”

Heb 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

 

[moondweller]

Wow, you really should read the entire bible, especially focusing on the New Testament instead of memorizing certain passages which when taken out of context can be used to prove many errant theological views.

Wow, I have read the entire Bible. You should really know that the gospel (good news concerning Christ) now preached to us by the Apostles is not in the entire Bible. But is a message based on the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. You see, Someone greater than Moses has come.

 

[Philthy]

mesl4;:

There must be a lot of variations in Protestant beliefs.

Yes there are many. Why wouldnt there be? They are based upon the various ways of interpreting Scripture…

It sounds like as a Catholic, you have to be perfect or you won’t go to Heaven?

No, not in the sense you mean it. We believe most die in an imperfect state (unconfessed sins, attachment to self, attachments to the world - etc etc) but that Christs work on the cross purges us of our selfishness and prepares us to be in Heaven.

As a Protestant, our will to be perfect leads us to try, but though we fail, Christ makes up the difference as we turn to him. Is that different from your beliefs?

Its only different in that Protestants have not developed any terminology to represent their ideas in this regard. They only vaguely reference ideas like “Christ makes up the difference”. Do you have any idea exactly how “Christ makes up the difference” for a Christian who dies not having confessed all their sins or having not forgiven others theirs? Are your ideas biblical or traditional?

Also, a big difference is that Catholics don’t see the “rites” or Sacraments as works, and we do - as I think Central Flames pointed out. They surely seem like works to gain salvation to me.

They are avenues of grace instituted by Christ. Is confessing your sins a work? Is getting Baptized? Is Marriage? The Lords Supper? You say they are works - I say they are acts of faith.

Do you believe if someone doesn’t partake of all 7 sacraments they are not going to heaven?

Nope.

How is it any different than the ceremonial works of the OT? (washing/purification before meals, animal sacrifice, circumcision, and I don’t know what else).

They are different because they convey grace through the power of the Holy Spirit.

For Protestants, once we have faith, we are led to change but that leads us to actions written on our heart (fruits of the Holy Spirit). The sacraments are not things that we’d know about w/out being told so they’re not written on our hearts, right?

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say “written on our heart” in relation to the fruits of the holy spirit.

THe Bible also says we ill be judged by how we live our lives. More blessing to those who lived more righteously, more punishment to those who did not.

Amen sister! You wont see any uniformity among Protestants on this belief of yours, but Catholics embrace it.

So, if someone preforms all the sacraments, but does not love, are they going to Heaven? We’d say no.

Catholics agree! “If you have all the faith in the world so as to move mountains, but have not love then you are nothing…”
Sacraments enable you to live the life God calls each of us to live.

There is no faith w/out love. Nothing means anything w/out love. God is love. KNowing Jesus leads us to love HIm and love others.

This is very Catholic of you to say. You seem less Protestant with each comment…

 

[moondweller]

So what do you believe is the fate of those who do believe Christ died for our sin, but don’t care, and keep on sinning? THe Bible says there is no sacrifice left for them and they will not be saved. It seems to be only by our belief carried out by actions that we are saved. He died for everyone’s opportunity, but not everyone follows through w/the needed response.

There are those who have heard, have the knowledge of the message that Christ died for our sins, but have not believe in Him. Some churches are full of them. These have never been saved.

It seems to be only by our belief carried out by actions that we are saved.

Don’t be deceived in thinking knowledge equals belief. And careful that you don’t preach a salvation based on works.

That Hebrew passage refers to Jews who had the knowledge of Christ and His sacrificial work, but desired to go back to sacrifices under the Law (which Christ fulfilled). That passage was written as a warning to them. They had knowledge but had not truly believed.

He died for everyone’s opportunity, but not everyone follows through w/the needed response

He didn’t die for “opportunity.” He died for our redemption and the “needed response” is true faith in what He DID. Christ is building His church (made up of believers), not a religion.

In that passage those who “go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth” are unbelievers. And the perpetual sin is to trample under foot the Son of God, and regard as unclean (consider as common) the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified (only through knowledge, not salvation), and have insulted the Spirit of grace through unbelief (Heb. 10:26-29).

How many so-called “Christians” are doing that today?

 

[Philthy]

mesl4 -

Like I said, not all Protestants would agree with your theology. Moondweller certainly isnt one to shy away from “correcting” others.
moondweller;:

There are those who have heard, have the knowledge of the message that Christ died for our sins, but have not believe in Him. Some churches are full of them. These have never been saved.

Interesting, but you didnt answer the question you chose to respond to: “So what do you believe is the fate of those who do believe Christ died for our sin, but don’t care, and keep on sinning?”

Don’t be deceived in thinking knowledge equals belief. And careful that you don’t preach a salvation based on works.

Be careful? Why -does it jeopardize anyone’s salvation? Or do you just not like people interpreting Scripture differently than you do?

That Hebrew passage refers to Jews who had the knowledge of Christ and His sacrificial work, but desired to go back to sacrifices under the Law (which Christ fulfilled). That passage was written as a warning to them. They had knowledge but had not truly believed.

This is one interpretation not stated in Scripture. IMHO MD seems to rely on this “Paul is preaching to unbelievers” in order to justify much of his theology which simply cannot hold together without rejecting large portions of the NT as applying to Christians. It is a theme which is repeated often.

 

[fhansen]

First of all you show that you’ve never really understood the “Protestant,” Biblical view.

Of course I was making some generalizations about Reformed theology and shouldn’t be lumping them all together but that brings up another point-which particular Protestant brand of theology should one be educated in-since they’re often different? On the other hand, most of them pretty well adhere to the “justification by faith alone” doctrine which leads to many of their common errors.

A semi-educated Catholic like me knows that faith is a gift of grace which can be resisted. He also knows that we can’t stand before God in heaven clothed in filthy rags covered by the blood of Jesus-God wants much more for us than that. We don’t earn our way into heaven-we are made worthy of standing in Gods’ presence. Sanctification comes prior to that rather than at some vague time in the future or not at all. Jesus’ atonement makes this possible.

 

[mesl4]

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/f.htm

This seems like a pretty good summary from the catechism link above:
"They must be convinced that the first vocation of the Christian is to follow Jesus: "He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."39

2233 Becoming a disciple of Jesus means accepting the invitation to belong to God’s family, to live in conformity with His way of life: “For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”(40) "

I guess Catholics would believe that knowing what “His way of life” or “the will of my Father” is, is through the Magesterium, Tradition, and Scripture, which the catechism also says.

 

[mesl4]

Yes, that is a difference. Catholics believe that we all inherit original sin and that original sin, by itself, excludes a person from entry into heaven. The normal way by which a person is cleansed of original sin is through baptism, which is why we baptize infants (of course, even then faith is still involved, but it is the faith of the parents, not of the infant).

So Christ’s sacrifice didn’t cover original sin? Does baptism cover original and our personal sin?

 

[moondweller]

Interesting, but you didnt answer the question you chose to respond to: “So what do you believe is the fate of those who do believe Christ died for our sin, but don’t care, and keep on sinning?”

True belief and “don’t care” have no more in common than light has with darkness or belief with unbelief. Those who truly believe are of the Light, the “don’t cares” are of the darkness. They have nothing to do with the Light.

Be careful? Why -does it jeopardize anyone’s salvation? Or do you just not like people interpreting Scripture differently than you do?

Titus 2:1 “But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.”

 

[mesl4]

Amen sister! You wont see any uniformity among Protestants on this belief of yours, but Catholics embrace it.

Really? We’ve had several sermons at my Baptist church on this type of stuff. It’s kind of a non-traditional Baptist church though.

This is very Catholic of you to say. You seem less Protestant with each comment…

Ha! That’s funny!

 

[guanophore]

---

It is the main focus of Catholicism:

Such a statement reveals a gross ignorance of the Catholic faith. On the contrary, the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our faith. It is the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross, given out of love, to free us from our sins that is the main focus of our faith.

(1) It’s what your sacrament of reconciliation/penance/forgiveness is concerned with;

The sacrament is focused on exactly what it says - reconciliation. The focus is right relationship with God. Sin separates us from God. The nature of sin has not changed. "this side of the cross’. Sin always separates us from God.

(2) you teach that the sacrifice of the Eucharist is expiatory;

I cannot believe that you would spout such drivel. How is it you can be here a year, and still not “get” it?!

It seems that you are suffering from a gross misunderstanding of the Apostolic Teaching. The Eucharist does not “sacrifice” itself. Christ sacrificed Himself on the cross to pay for our sins. His death is completely expiatory. Eucharist is the fulfillment of the Passover, an amanesis which makes us present at the foot of the cross.

Jesus was sacrificed for sin 'once for all". We make this sacrifice present to ourselves during the Eucharist.

V (3) and your “state of grace” is ruined by one mortal sin

Do we not agree that this is what we see in the Garden of Eden?

.Is it? Is He? You believe you have yet to "be saved.

Yes, Christ is the center of our salvation, and the expiation fro our sins. Yes, we believe that we will be saved. We have been taught by the Apostles that the mature attitude is one that does not assume one has ‘attained’.

Phil 3:13-16
13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained."

What is it that prevents you from having this mature state of mind?

 

[guanophore]

"Then He’s not truly your “Savior” (through whom you’ve been saved from your sins), but He’s your “provider,” of “graces” (undefined) through which you hope to merit eternal life.

I think the problem here is primarily prejudice, and secondarily, semantics. Jesus saves us by grace, through faith. Indeed, He is the provider of the grace that is needed for us to be saved. FOr there is no name under heaven by which we may be saved. It may seem to you that the grace of God is “undefined” but to those who have received the Apostolic faith, He is the fullness of God, who dwells in HIm bodily. We believe that it is our Father’s good pleasure to give us the Kingdom.

I understand that the word “merit” is hard for Protestants. But as John the Baptist preached, it is incumbent upon us to bear fruit that befits repentance. It is not our own ability that enables ust to do this, but “God, working within, to will and to do His good Pleasure”.

Not really. In the Biblical sense belief in God is to be understood in the Abrahamic context (i.e., God’s promise, Rom. 4:16).Gen 15:5-6 "And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Then he believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord God) reckoned it (his belief in Him) to him as righteousness.

I think we agree, then, that faith in God means to entrust ones whole being to Him

The context here is not Abraham’s believing in God’s existence, but what God promised him he believed. In the same way, the belief by which God saves (forgives sins, redeems, justifies, reconciles, sanctifies and will glorify) the believer, is belief not in the mere existence of Christ and that He was crucified, buried and rose on the third day, but what God has SAID (in His written Word) that He accomplished through Him.

Amen!

This is the whole focus of the sacraments - redemption, justification, reconciliation, and sanctificaion.

These are accomplished through Christ.

This side of the cross

I find this a fascinating statement, very common in Reformed Theology. Not found in scripture or Apostolic Teaching, but apparently part of a new and modern gospel.

it’s believing in what He has DONE on behalf of sinful mankind through the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, and that by believing He has promised eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; 6:40; 17:3; 1 Jn. 5:9-13).

The support for the "this side of the cross’ doctrine is fallacious, which exposes it as fabrication. On the contrary, God has ALWAYS acted on behalf of sinful mankind through His own mercy. This has not developed “this side of the cross” but was present from the moment of the Fall of man in the Garden, through the calling of Abraham, and the call of Moses. God has always acted on behalf of sinful man and toward us sacrificially. I think maybe your dispensationalism is clouding your memory.

This, Catholicism, with it sacramental system, has not believed.

It seems that you have had little or no education about systems. If you have not had any engineering, or other theory related to systems, you may not realize that in a system, all the parts depend upon or are effected by the other parts of the system. The reason the term “system” does not apply properly to the sacraments is that they are not dependent upon one another, and they do not all influence one another.

You have fabricated an idea here and applied it erroneously.

But through its sacraments is still seeking forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and the “hope” to have eternal life.

Clearly you do not understand sacraments.

Humans are obligated to always seek forgiveness of their sins from God, and one another.

When we fall away from God, it is necessary to seek reconcliation with Him.

The context of Heb. 9:26 states nothing about cooperating with God’s grace. You’re imposing that Catholic notion into the text.

Have you forgotten that the entire NT was written by, for, and about Catholics? There is no need to “impose” catholic notions into the text, since they are inherint within the text!

It does state, however, that unlike the yearly Day of Atonement prescribed in the Law of Moses, which had no power to “put away sin” once for all, Christ in fact did “once for all” “by the sacrifice of Himself.” A one time, “it is finished,” sacrifice which put away sin once for all (time).

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

It’s true that neither this verse, nor its context, teaches “universalism;” the idea that through the sacrifice of Christ all men are saved.

Indeed not! Although God desires that all be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, some people reject the purpose of God for themselves.

 

[guanophore]

But the gospel (good news) message to be believed is that through Christ’s “once for all” (time) sacrifice sin is forever put away, and it’s those who believe the glorious message (like Abraham) are the ones who eternally benefit by His sacrificial work. And for this reason the Apostles proclaimed forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14; 1 Jn. 2:1) through faith in Christ, i.e., believing what God has DONE through the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Israel’s Messiah.

It seems that you have apprehended the Catholic message of salvation.

I made no such interpretation.

I want to commend both you and Sandusky because neither of you consider grace as an excuse to sin.

You don’t believe the message of that verse, that Christ has “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” If you did you would rejoice in that truth and discard your sacrament of “penance/reconciliation/forgiveness,” as well as your doctrine of “mortal” sins.

Jesus put away all sins by HIs sacrifice. However, we agree that not all avail themselves of HIs sacrifice. At times, even those who have embraced it turn and deny Him, as Peter did. When this happens, Jesus comes to us as He did to Peter, and He restores us to His intention for our lives. Reconciliation is like a walk on the beach with the Lord.

 

[fhansen]

That all sounds pretty much the way I’ve been taught as a Protestant. THere must be a lot of variations in Protestant beliefs. It sounds like as a Catholic, you have to be perfect or you won’t go to Heaven? As a Protestant, our will to be perfect leads us to try, but though we fail, Christ makes up the difference as we turn to him. Is that different from your beliefs?

Also, a big difference is that Catholics don’t see the “rites” or Sacraments as works, and we do - as I think Central Flames pointed out. They surely seem like works to gain salvation to me. Do you believe if someone doesn’t partake of all 7 sacraments they are not going to heaven? How is it any different than the ceremonial works of the OT? (washing/purification before meals, animal sacrifice, circumcision, and I don’t know what else). For Protestants, once we have faith, we are led to change but that leads us to actions written on our heart (fruits of the Holy Spirit). The sacraments are not things that we’d know about w/out being told so they’re not written on our hearts, right? THe Bible also says we ill be judged by how we live our lives. More blessing to those who lived more righteously, more punishment to those who did not. So, if someone preforms all the sacraments, but does not love, are they going to Heaven? We’d say no. There is no faith w/out love. Nothing means anything w/out love. God is love. KNowing Jesus leads us to love HIm and love others.

I’ll answer you back even tho Philthy already did a good job. What I’m meaning to point out is that the CC recognizes that we can’t skirt around the issue of works or merit. Of course what we do counts. Reformed theology often seems confused about this. Sanctification is sort of an afterthought once salvation takes place. In Catholic thought, conversion and salvation are a process-one must be sanctified in order to be saved.

And the Sacraments, for the most part, are some of the means God employs to get us there. Sacraments are visible signs of Gods’ presence and His working in us. We’re physical beings and when we “act out” or “live” the realities which are occurring inside we make them real. If Protestants give a nod to “confessing your sins one to another”, while usually leaving it as an option for the individual, the CC gives that concept concrete form in the Sacrament of Confession or Reconciliation. This is something the CC has always and everywhere done and which she knows to be a crucial part of ones molding by the Potter, of ones continuous conversion and improvement towards becoming the beings God envisions us to be. The Eucharist is a place where we receive God in a physical way. By acknowledging our unworthiness to receive Him after committing a serious sin, we live out the drama which is taking place inside; there are actual repercussions for even our private sins when we know we must take action by confessing them before we can unite with our Lord again in the Eucharist with a good conscience. The Sacrament of Matrimony acknowledges that God is present in marriage between a man and woman-that this is not merely a custom of men but rather an institution ordained by God from the beginning. In Holy Orders, we confirm that God has ordered a continuous succession of priests from the beginning of the establishment of His Church. These are some explanations- not very eloquent ones-of why Sacraments are important to Catholics.

And in the end, you’re right, nothing means anything without love. We can go through the motions and end up like the people the Lord spoke of in Isaiah, The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

This can be true of Catholics and Protestants alike.