How are we saved?

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I’m not sure about all Protestants, but I think most believe that Jesus’ sacrifice covers the innocent (ie. babies/under age of reason/retarded, etc). Once we have knowledge of sin and choose sin, we then need to repent. A baby doesn’ t need to repent.
I would quote other Protestants and ask, where is that in the Bible? Of course, first, you have to establish why the Bible is inspired Scripture. The Catholic Church has good answers to both of these questions.
There are those who have heard, have the knowledge of the message that Christ died for our sins, but have not believe in Him. Some churches are full of them. These have never been saved.Don’t be deceived in thinking knowledge equals belief. And careful that you don’t preach a salvation based on works.
Don’t try to imply that the Catholic Church preaches a salvation based upon works. That’s been disproven time and time again.
mesl4 -

Like I said, not all Protestants would agree with your theology. Moondweller certainly isnt one to shy away from “correcting” others.
I’m starting to think that Moondweller isn’t here to learn more about the Catholic faith but to argue against it. Now we are starting to see the term “educated Protestants”. Interesting.

One nice thing about being Catholic is that a lot of the heavy lifting has already been done for us. We can research the Catechism, read the works of the ECF’s and see that these were some pretty smart (and inspired) people. I’ve never failed to get the correct answer to my questions, as long as I was willing to keep an open mind and put my personal prejudices aside.
 
there are those who have heard,have the knowledge of the message that Christ died for our sins, but have not believe in Him. Some churches are full of them. These have never been saved.Don’t be deceived in thinking knowledge equals belief. And careful that you don’t preach a salvation based on works.
I agree that there are many who hear, and do not understand…seeds falling on rocky ground. However, this passage in Heb. is addressed to believers. They may be one of those seeds that falls on rocky ground, sprouts, then is choked by weeds or withers under persecution. However, the seed did sprout and grow, for at least a short period of time. These believers “received” the word, which is different than just having knowledge. To receive it means to allow it to plant in the heart and sprout.
That Hebrew passage refers to Jews who had the knowledge of Christ and His sacrificial work, but desired to go back to sacrifices under the Law (which Christ fulfilled).
You betray yourself here. One cannot "go back "to something one has not left. These people have been made “partakers” of God’s grace, which cannot happen unless the spirit makes it so.
Code:
That passage was written as a warning to them. They had *knowledge* but had not truly believed.
I know you must maintain this otherwise there is no way to dispense with this passage in the light of OSAS. This verse, unless dispatched thusly, throws a real wrench into OSAS, which teaches that all who are saved are also given final perseverance.
In that passage those who “go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth” are unbelievers. And the perpetual sin is to trample under foot the Son of God, and regard as unclean (consider as common) the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified (only through knowledge, not salvation), and have insulted the Spirit of grace through unbelief (Heb. 10:26-29).
I agree with you that these persons have fallen from grace. However, one cannot be sanctified and not be saved, even according to your own Reformed threology. All who are sanctified are later glorified. One cannot insult a Spirit of Grace that they have not been given.

Heb 10:29-30
29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

The only blood of the covenant that can sanctify is the covenant in Christ’s blood. They were sanctified by His blood,w hich means they were baptized Christians, partakers of HIs grace.
How many so-called “Christians” are doing that today?
I would say the majority, sadly. As we are coming up to this election, I see that there are a great many Catholics turning their backs on the priorities of God, and preferring their own needs and wants.
Interesting, but you didnt answer the question you chose to respond to: “So what do you believe is the fate of those who do believe Christ died for our sin, but don’t care, and keep on sinning?”
I think he did respond, Philthy. I think he considers them never saved in the first place.
This is one interpretation not stated in Scripture. IMHO MD seems to rely on this “Paul is preaching to unbelievers” in order to justify much of his theology which simply cannot hold together without rejecting large portions of the NT as applying to Christians. It is a theme which is repeated often.
Yes, I agree.
 
A semi-educated Catholic like me knows that faith is a gift of grace which can be resisted. He also knows that we can’t stand before God in heaven clothed in filthy rags covered by the blood of Jesus-God wants much more for us than that. We don’t earn our way into heaven-we are made worthy of standing in Gods’ presence. Sanctification comes prior to that rather than at some vague time in the future or not at all. Jesus’ atonement makes this possible.
👍

:clapping:
 
So Christ’s sacrifice didn’t cover original sin?
Of course, but not everyone avails them selves of the benefit of HIs sacrifice.
Does baptism cover original and our personal sin?
Absolutely! Acts 22:16
16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

When we are baptized, we are clothed by the HS in Christ. We are pure, having washed our robes in the blood of the lamb.
I’m not sure about all Protestants, but I think most believe that Jesus’ sacrifice covers the innocent (ie. babies/under age of reason/retarded, etc).
We believe this too, which is why we baptize them. Baptism is the means by which the sacrifice of Jesus is applied to a person. Our disagreement is that we don;t consider them “innocent” of original sin. They cannot have personal sins,but everyone born in to the world is condemned already, because of original sin.

Mark 16:16-17
16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

We are condemned already by the consequences of Adam’s fall.
Code:
Once we have knowledge of sin and choose sin, we then need to repent. A baby doesn' t need to repent. I guess we understand original sin differently.
Yes. Catholic agree that once we have knowledge of sin we need to repent. Yes, it seems that we understand original sin differently.
Like, Jesus’s sacrifice removed original sin, but we then act on our life / faith/repentance once we have knowledge.
Jesus’ sacrifice is not applied to everyone.
 
First of all you show that you’ve never really understood the “Protestant,” Biblical view.An educated Protestant understands that God never did require perfection from Adam’s fallen race. Such righteousness had to be divinely provided (gifted) through another Adam, the Theanthopic Man, Jesus Christ, the “Second Man,” the “Last Adam” (see Rom. 5:12-21; Phil 3:9; 1 Cor. 15:45-47)An educated Protestant doesn’t accept the unbiblical doctrine of a “cooperative grace.” He understands salvation to be a one time, divine act of sovereign GRACE at the time of true faith in Jesus Christ: “For by grace (singular, unmerited, divine favor) you have been saved (a completed, divine act of GRACE) through FAITH…”

An educated Protestant understands that Gentiles were never under the covenant of Law and …

An educated Protestant understands that the blood of Christ redeemed him from the slave market of sin:

An educated Protestant understands that Christ’s shed blood PAID the price for our redemption…

An educated Protestant knows he cannot earn his way into heaven…

An educated Protestant knows the Law ended with Christ…

An educated Protestant understands that God is satisfied with nothing less than faith…
There are 100’s of millions of “educated Protestants” who know that there is no infallable teacher in all of the Protestant system of belief that can “educate” them any better than their bible can. There are 100’s of millions of self educated Protestants who know that they are free to belive whatever their Bible teaches them through their own private interpretation.

Can you give us the name of divinity school that you think is the single infallable and “Jesus accredited” college of higher spiritual learning that you can refer all the 100’s of millions of other Protestants to go take remedial courses in to get properly “educated” so you all can get on the same sheet music?

From a Catholic perspective you are just another Protestant with another “out of school” (apostolic school) self taught theology.

The only properly “educated Christian” is Catholic - everyone else is self taught in their own home-school or taught from

BTW, are you now adding another sola to the Protestant potpourri of salvation slogans: “One MUST be educated in order to be saved”?

James
 

Also, a big difference is that Catholics don’t see the “rites” or Sacraments as works, and we do - as I think Central Flames pointed out. They surely seem like works to gain salvation to me. …
Oh no - was the dropping of the letter “J” from my moniker CentralFLJames to rename me *CentralFlames *a Freudian slip, a typo or a conscious disparaging act? :eek: 😃

*Revelationa 8:1-5
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with the fire of the altar, and cast it on the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings, and a great earthquake. *

James
 
True belief and “don’t care” have no more in common than light has with darkness or belief with unbelief. Those who truly believe are of the Light, the “don’t cares” are of the darkness. They have nothing to do with the Light.
A clarification with yet another dodge IMHO. You continue to avoid the issue of those who believe and keep on sinning.
  • Is it your claim that those who believe will not keep on sinning - that is to say, that those who keep on sinning dont believe?
  • Do sins reveal the absence of salvation faith?
Titus 2:1 “But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.”
Again, a dodge. She(?) is speaking what she believes to be sound doctrine. Anyone at any time could throw this verse out and imply what you are implying. That much being said, you never answered my questions.
 
They cannot have personal sins,but everyone born in to the world is condemned already, because of original sin.

Mark 16:16-17
16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

We are condemned already by the consequences of Adam’s fall.

Jesus’ sacrifice is not applied to everyone.
Hmm. Christ died for all sin (original, and personal) for all people, but only when we act on it we receive the forgiveness/salvation. Is that right? ANd for Catholics, the acting on it is : a baby of believing parents is baptized which removes their original sin because Christ allows it now (apparently didn’t in OT), then the baby gets old enough to know what they do, and of course sin like we all do (except Mary , I’m told by Catholics) so they have their first confession, confirmation, and communion, which forgives their personal sin, and the cycle continues w/sin,confess, repent, etc. ?
Wow, I’ve thought of it as (mind you, this is my “private interpretation” since it is debatable by Scripture): Jesus died and removed the original sin and his wrath we were unable to escape from before his death/resurrection, but people still choose to sin even after they are redeemed (whether they know they are redeemed or not) so they need to be forgiven again and again. Instead of trying to appease God’s wrath w/an animal sacrifice, we just confess our sins to him, and repent each time, and he will forgive us / wipe our slate clean. So, since a baby has not sinned, they don’t need to confess anything yet. THey are still covered by Jesus’ sacrifice on it’s own. I can’t imagine God would allow a baby to go to hell/limbo/? when they haven’t chosen to sin against him. I figured it’s kinda like he’s no longer punishing us for our ancestory, but for our own actions, which the baby hasn’t done yet. ANyway, it doesn’t matter what I think, we’re talking about the Catholic belief.
 
They cannot have personal sins,but everyone born in to the world is condemned already, because of original sin.

Mark 16:16-17
16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

We are condemned already by the consequences of Adam’s fall.
I guess I could put it better/more consisley than my previous rambling: I thought we weren’t condemned anymore, until we choose to be. After Jesus we are born w/a clean slate, yet mess it up later, befor Jesus all were born w/a dirty slate and were constantly trying to clean it on their own, but only Jesus’ sacrifice could clean it.
 
Oh no - was the dropping of the letter “J” from my moniker CentralFLJames to rename me *CentralFlames *a Freudian slip, a typo or a conscious disparaging act? :eek: 😃
Oh my Gosh! I totally have been reading it as “Central Flames” all this time! I’m sorry.No hard feelings!
 
And careful that you don’t preach a salvation based on works.
When you keep referring to Catholics preaching a salvation based on works, you show the fact that you truly do not understand the Catholic view of salvation.

I have provided here some articles which are contained in Jimmy Akin’s book “Salvation Controversy”, they do not cover all of the chapters in the book, but this covers around 90% of the book.
If you want a better understanding of what Catholics believe, this would be a great opportunity for you to brush up, but alas, I don’t think you really want to understand Catholics, I feel that you want to come here and pontificate to us on what you believe to be true, and are not interested on finding out if maybe some of your beliefs might be in error.

Well anyways, if you want to read these articles, here they are.


Salvation Past, Present, and Future


Temporal and Eternal Salvation

Doing Penance

A PRIMER ON INDULGENCES

A Tiptoe Through TULIP


RESISTING AND COOPERATING WITH GOD


The Works of the Law

Jewish and Christian Boasting in Romans

Justification in Catholic Teaching
 
Hmm. Christ died for all sin (original, and personal) for all people, but only when we act on it we receive the forgiveness/salvation. Is that right?
That is correct. The Catholic Church does not teach that everyone is saved. Only those that receive the grace provided for our salvation.
ANd for Catholics, the acting on it is : a baby of believing parents is baptized which removes their original sin because Christ allows it now (apparently didn’t in OT), then the baby gets old enough to know what they do, and of course sin like we all do (except Mary , I’m told by Catholics) so they have their first confession, confirmation, and communion, which forgives their personal sin, and the cycle continues w/sin,confess, repent, etc. ?
I would say this is mostly right, except that God does not intend for us to have a 'cycle" of falling into sin. We are to be holy, as He is Holy. God is merciful, and has made provision for our weakness, but His goal for us is to live without sin.
Wow, I’ve thought of it as (mind you, this is my “private interpretation” since it is debatable by Scripture): Jesus died and removed the original sin and his wrath we were unable to escape from before his death/resurrection, but people still choose to sin even after they are redeemed (whether they know they are redeemed or not) so they need to be forgiven again and again. Instead of trying to appease God’s wrath w/an animal sacrifice, we just confess our sins to him, and repent each time, and he will forgive us / wipe our slate clean. So, since a baby has not sinned, they don’t need to confess anything yet. THey are still covered by Jesus’ sacrifice on it’s own. I can’t imagine God would allow a baby to go to hell/limbo/?
It is good that you are thinking about these things. Such pondering is profitable! I think the part where you are missing the mark is that all humans have inherited the death penalty from Adam and Eve. God desires that all be saved, and come to the knowldege of the Truth. Yet, He has created us in His image and likeness so He has given us free will. He allows us to reject HIs grace, because He wants us to be with Him out of love, not slavery.
when they haven’t chosen to sin against him. I figured it’s kinda like he’s no longer punishing us for our ancestory, but for our own actions, which the baby hasn’t done yet. ANyway, it doesn’t matter what I think, we’re talking about the Catholic belief.
I understand your difficulty.
I guess I could put it better/more consisley than my previous rambling: I thought we weren’t condemned anymore, until we choose to be.
No, we are condemned already. Jesus states this clearly.
After Jesus we are born w/a clean slate, yet mess it up later, befor Jesus all were born w/a dirty slate and were constantly trying to clean it on their own, but only Jesus’ sacrifice could clean it.
We are born into sin, because of the Fall. Yes, Jesus can give us a clean slate (and only Him), but we must choose to allow HIm to wash us. Remember what He told His Apostles? “If I don’t wash you you have no part in me”.
 
Oh my Gosh! I totally have been reading it as “Central Flames” all this time! I’m sorry.No hard feelings!
Well. OK. I cam accept that. But this little snafu just goes to demonstrate the pitfalls of being a “bible-only” (literal) Christian. If one must rely on one’s own literal read of scripture without the benefit of a church teaching they run the risk adding or subtract words and letters here and there in one’s zeal to speed read one’s way into the promised land. 😃

Imagine the confusion it would cause if people started running around chanting “esus saves”. 😉

Signed,
ames 😃

p.s. James
 
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fhansen:
Of course I was making some generalizations about Reformed theology and shouldn’t be lumping them all together but that brings up another point-which particular Protestant brand of theology should one be educated in-since they’re often different? On the other hand, most of them pretty well adhere to the “justification by faith alone” doctrine which leads to many of their common errors.
Along with Paul?
A semi-educated Catholic like me knows that faith is a gift of grace which can be resisted.
Yes, that is Catholic theology. However, Pauline theology states that God Himself has saved men “by grace” (unmerited favor), “through faith” (in Christ), and that their salvation (which entails forgiveness of all sins, redemption, justification, reconciliation, propitiation and eternal life) is “the gift of God; not as a result of works.” So according to Pauline theology, men may resist believing in Christ, the gospel (good news message) of what He accomplished for them through the cross, but when one does believe the gospel of Christ, salvation, and all that it entails, is gifted by God according to His sovereign GRACE (unmerited favor), which He is free to do because of the cross of Christ.
He also knows that we can’t stand before God in heaven clothed in filthy rags covered by the blood of Jesus-God wants much more for us than that.
No true believer will ever stand before God in heaven “clothed in filthy rags.” In fact, it is revealed that every true believer is now “in Christ” seated in the heavenly with Him:Eph 2:4-6 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,"And he writes to the believers at Colossea whose transgressions had been totally forgiven, and whose “certificate of debt,” which consisted of decrees against them, had been completely cancelled out, which He (God) had taken out of the way having nailed it to the cross (Col. 2:13-14), saying:Col 3:1-4 "Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory."For what eternal reason says Paul?Eph 2:7 "…so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."So, NO!, no true believer now or ever stands before God “in filthy rags,” but he is now “in Christ” and imputed His righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21).
We don’t earn our way into heaven-we are made worthy of standing in Gods’ presence.
Men are “made worthy” the same way as Abraham:Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”
Sanctification comes prior to that rather than at some vague time in the future or not at all. Jesus’ atonement makes this possible.
Upon true faith the believer is “sanctified in Christ Jesus,” “saints by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2; cf. 6:11).Heb 2:11 "For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one {Father;} for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."These divinely revealed truths are what make up what is called “the faith.” And as Paul says: “But the righteous shall live by faith.”
 
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guanophore:
Such a statement reveals a gross ignorance of the Catholic faith. On the contrary, the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our faith. It is the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross, given out of love, to free us from our sins that is the main focus of our faith…Sin separates us from God. The nature of sin has not changed. "this side of the cross’. Sin always separates us from God.
So, my statement that “sin” is the main focus of Catholicism is not made from a gross ignorance of the Catholic faith.
I think we agree, then, that faith in God means to entrust ones whole being to Him
No. I used Abraham as an example. Abraham believed what God had promised. To believe in the Lord is to believe what He has promisedRom 4:20-21 “…yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.”

Rom 4:16 "For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace (not graces), so that the promise (righteousness/salvation) will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of law (Jews), but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,"This is, those who also believe in the promise of God revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Humans are obligated to always seek forgiveness of their sins from God,
Then faith has no value and Christ died needlessly.Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,” (cf. Col. 2:13-14).Peter and Paul seem to differ with you. They proclaimed a message of forgiveness which was to be believed.
When we fall away from God, it is necessary to seek reconcliation with Him.
2 Cor 5:18 “Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ…”
Jesus put away all sins by HIs sacrifice. However, we agree that not all avail themselves of HIs sacrifice.
I know what it mens to not believe the message of the cross, but what does it mean to not “avail themselves of His sacrifice?”
I agree with you that these persons have fallen from grace. However, one cannot be sanctified and not be saved, even according to your own Reformed threology.
Do you understand that there is a distinct theology called “Reformed Theology?”

But as to your statement one cannot be sanctified and not be saved I refer you to:1 Cor 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband;"Can an unbelieving wife or husband be saved? Of course not. Yet, in a sense, they’re “sanctified” through their believing spouse. Your problem lies in your monolithic idea of the word “sanctified.”
I want to commend both you and Sandusky because neither of you consider grace as an excuse to sin.
And I want to commend you that you don’t consider the confessional (booth) an excuse to sin.
Have you forgotten that the entire NT was written by, for, and about Catholics?
So then you are saying salvation is exclusively about, by and for Catholics? Yet I don’t see where Paul taught the churches he planted, and later wrote to by letter, that Peter was “Vicar of Christ,” head of the church on earth and is to be addressed as “Pope.” Or that he began his letter to the church at Rome with the words, “your Excellency, Pope Peter.” Strange, indeed, that Paul should instruct the Vicar of Christ, head of the church on earth.
 
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CentralFLJames:
BTW, are you now adding another sola to the Protestant potpourri of salvation slogans: “One MUST be educated in order to be saved”?
Did I say that?
 
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Philthy:
A clarification with yet another dodge IMHO. You continue to avoid the issue of those who believe and keep on sinning.
I dodged nothing. The issue was not simply sinning, but sinning and not caring. This is an issue of the heart, and that of the heart of an unbeliever.

In the Hebrew passage the particular “heart issue” specified for those Jews was regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant. “Unclean” there means Christ’s blood was “common” blood. The blood of a mere, fallen, sinful man which could accomplish nothing. So their desire was to revert back to the sacrificial system of the Law.

At the time of the writing of Hebrews the Temple in Jerusalem had not yet been destroyed by the Romans and the sacrifices, according to the Law, were still being performed. This is not a believing heart being warned here, but unbelieving.
 
Did I say that?
If education is not necessary for salvation then why are you in these forums trying to reinvent salvation theology to our own system of thinking to educate everyone with a non-apostolic teaching and convert everyone if all we have to do is believe? In your way of thinking Catholics are working too hard. Is exceeding the requirements going to make us lose salvation? 🤷 😊

James
 
If education is not necessary for salvation then why are you in these forums trying to reinvent salvation theology to our own system of thinking to educate everyone with a non-apostolic teaching and convert everyone if all we have to do is believe? In your way of thinking Catholics are working too hard. Is exceeding the requirements going to make us lose salvation? 🤷 😊

James
I think we’re discussing just what the requirement is for salvation. The question of the O.P. is “How are we saved.” One can exceed in something that never counted in the first place. Right?
 
I think we’re discussing just what the requirement is for salvation. The question of the O.P. is “How are we saved.” One can exceed in something that never counted in the first place. Right?
It just seems to me that for a man who “believes” he is saved by uttering the magic words “I believe” and who rejects grace through faith with acts of charitable love is working very hard to teach his own theology and belief system. Why does any of what you say matter if all we need to do is believe? You are a sweating and perspiring contradiction of teaching. Most everyone in these forums “believes” in Jesus. So what is it to you that some of us want to exceed the requirement (as you believe it to be) ? Are you afraid that Catholics might realize a higher and better salvation through their unnecessary works of charity and love? 😊 🤷

Or re you afraid we are going to work so hard that we dig a hole to hell and work ourselves out the other side and miss heaven and our salvation? 😃
James
 
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