J
jim1130
Guest
Which is why our parents and Godparents make the profession for us when we are infants.
- Status
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Oh MD - come on guy are you going go back to playing rope-a-dope again and revert to literalism? If you do that I am going to use literalism to hog-tie your private take on Pauline Theology and prove to you the absurdity that nothing Paul or any of the apostles or saints said is a shred of truth and the bible is invalid just to prove how ludicrous literalism is. Doubt that? If so better re-read Romans 3:10-17 with your fundamentalist-literalist lens:
As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Paul does not exempt even himself here - so do we take Paul at his word and assume he is being truthful in telling us he and all men are deceivers? Seems pretty insanely contradictory yes?
Literalism and fundamentalism are for those who do not have a true apostolic teaching and think they can roll their own do-it-yourself salvation by reading a book and believing anything they want to. But Catholics know that the bible does not teach itself through private interpretation - we know that only apostolic teachers teach authentic teaching.
So, can we get past the pablum?
Do you really insist that the word “initial” is not present and implied in past-present-future tense of the bible verses I reference? Can you be intellectually honest? How do you account for the other verses you conveniently ignore?
If you insist on an infantile literalism then how do you explain the Catholic concept of Trinity? I assume you believe that from our Catholic tradition since its not in the bible either?
I beg you to consider the very first “initial” book of of the Bible. Does it not start initially at Genesis ("Gk. genesis “origin, creation, generation,” from gignesthai “to be born” ). It seems there is a concept of “initial” there. Maybe elsewhere too? Yes?
Is there no “initial” commandment to “Love God and have no others before Him” in the Decalogue? Is there no such concept as being “born” - an initial entrance into Creation?
Are there no beginnings? Is there no initial original sin? Is there no initial baptism into Christ? Is there no initial faith? Is there no alpha and no omega - no beginning and no end? 
Come on guy - you can’t keep hiding behind these infantile polemics of denial and literalistic trap doors like some plastic whack-a-mole that pops up all over the place then ducks away when presented with solid arguments.
James
J
jim1130
Guest
Moondweller -
To follow-up with what CentralFLJames stated I thought that this may be helpful (this is a short read; only 4 paragraphs):
From St. Irenæus: Chapter III.—A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.
sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/001/0010770.htm
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
How convenient and consistent of you to once again change the locus of the discussion and completely ignore the verses I gave you. EXPLAIN the conditions that I proved to you contradict your false assertion.
Also consider the that the predicates “I will” is spoken to “HIS PEOPLE”. He did not speak these words to the entire world - it was conditioned to the audience of the believers and “His People”. Nice try though…
You are confused if you think you can pick and choose verses that support your theories over other verses that contradict them. You can’t divide the Word of God against itself without exposing yourself through contradiction to be in error or as a willful heretic. So please - get real. You are using species arguments to justify a fractional truth. Either accept it all or reject it all. You are trying to weave into scripture your own theology as if stringing together individual pearls of truth while rejecting others. This is heretical and is not the gospel that was handed down to us through the apostles.
Truth is not a function of one’s personal belief MD. This is why belief is mostly irrelevant. No matter how hard you believe a think - it won’t make it true unless it really is. What is important here in this OP is where you get your initial faith. There is that “initial” word again.
Do you know where faith comes from? If you want to know look into the CCC (see 26, 142, 150, 1814, 2087) . Hint - The Church is were we get our initial gift of faith from. Works are inextricably linked to faith. For a guy who does not believe in works you sure put forth a lot of perspiration trying to get Catholics to believe that producing works as a fruit of faith is wrong and we might as well just stop it since we don’t need to “DO” anything to demonstrate our faith. I suppose by your line of reasoning the apostles could have all gone back to fishing and let God’s grace do all the works of evangelizing the rest of the world without even using man for anything.
No you did through a twist of logic where you think you can ignore the rest of what Paul teaches that does not agree with your salvation theory.
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[continued from above]
To answer your question let me ask you if you believe that there is no 2nd (general ) judgement? God will remember sins no more in the wrathful sense AFTER the 2nd Judgement. But He WILL remember sin in the sense that His Children overcame formidable sins through His grace and through our cooperation with Grace to bring Glory to Him. That is, forgiven sins will not cause shame but the saints in overcoming their own sins by God’s profound grace will bring unfathomable glory to God. The victory and end objective of His saints will prove to both wicked and just that His Divine Providence set in motion His Plan; a Plan that brings a greater glory and a greater good from a fallen Creation. This is why God even permits sin to exist so that man could choose to love God through an act of free will and in overcoming sin bring glory to God so He may share that with us in letting us participate eternally with that glory.
So, this may shock your fundamentalist view of the Word but you need to understand that The General Judgment will embrace all works, good or bad, forgiven as well as unforgiven sins, every idle word (Matthew 12:36), every secret thought (1 Corinthians 4:5). Even the secret sins of the just will be made manifest, in order that judgment may be made complete and that the justice and mercy of God may be glorified. This will not pain or embarrass the saints, but add to their glory, just as the repentance of St. Peter and St. Mary Magdalen is to these saints a source of joy and honour. Yep MD - we are all going to know how your every sin and you will also know the sins of all the saints. The question is - will you know those sins from the side the goats stand in shame or on the side where the sheep stand in glory as God’s children?
James
No, you are conveniently ignoring the other things that Paul tells us. Why is that? Paul has to start the race and he has to finish the race (go back and reacquaint yourself with Paul telling us to finish the race too - while you are it explain the verses I already gave you).
You are just making faith a work. That is part of it - but it obscures the means by which we can ascertain who has the faith - by their fruits they shall be known. No one places a light under a barrel where it can not be seen. Do you believe God when He says “Not all who call be Lord Lord will enter by Kingdom but those who DO my father’s will?”
To answer your question let me ask you if you believe that there is no 2nd (general ) judgement? God will remember sins no more in the wrathful sense AFTER the 2nd Judgement. But He WILL remember sin in the sense that His Children overcame formidable sins through His grace and through our cooperation with Grace to bring Glory to Him. That is, forgiven sins will not cause shame but the saints in overcoming their own sins by God’s profound grace will bring unfathomable glory to God. The victory and end objective of His saints will prove to both wicked and just that His Divine Providence set in motion His Plan; a Plan that brings a greater glory and a greater good from a fallen Creation. This is why God even permits sin to exist so that man could choose to love God through an act of free will and in overcoming sin bring glory to God so He may share that with us in letting us participate eternally with that glory.
So, this may shock your fundamentalist view of the Word but you need to understand that The General Judgment will embrace all works, good or bad, forgiven as well as unforgiven sins, every idle word (Matthew 12:36), every secret thought (1 Corinthians 4:5). Even the secret sins of the just will be made manifest, in order that judgment may be made complete and that the justice and mercy of God may be glorified. This will not pain or embarrass the saints, but add to their glory, just as the repentance of St. Peter and St. Mary Magdalen is to these saints a source of joy and honour. Yep MD - we are all going to know how your every sin and you will also know the sins of all the saints. The question is - will you know those sins from the side the goats stand in shame or on the side where the sheep stand in glory as God’s children?
James
P
Philthy
Guest
As always, talk is cheap. At least you got a response to your post…
B
By_His_Mercy
Guest
Moondweller,
I’m interested in how you’d respond to my initial post. What do you think of 1 Cor 11:32? Do you think the Lord still needs to discipline us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world?
God bless you,
-BHM
I’m interested in how you’d respond to my initial post. What do you think of 1 Cor 11:32? Do you think the Lord still needs to discipline us so that we won’t be condemned along with the world?
God bless you,
-BHM
B
By_His_Mercy
Guest
Yes, I agree. In principle we can turn from God…we have free wills. Our perseverance depends on God’s future grace. It seems like the guy in James 5:19-20 could loose his soul if God didn’t work to bring him back (here God uses other members of the body).
James 5:19-20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
So before this guy was brought back, his soul was in jeapordy of death.
We still need God’s grace!!
B
By_His_Mercy
Guest
But don’t we all pray for forgiveness every time we pray the Lord’s prayer? And after, Jesus told the disciples that if we don’t forgive others, our Father won’t forgive us (Matt 6:15).
We get forgiveness of postconversion sins when we confess (1 Jn 1:9) and when the sick are anointed (James 5:14-15).
What did Peter refer to when he described the “purification of your former sins”? Wasn’t that back at conversion? What else could it be?
What about the guy in James 5:19-20?
James 5:19-20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
I think we get ongoing forgiveness from God. It seems like you believe all of our future sins are forgiven right now. Is this true?
God bless you,
-BHM
T
Thing
Guest
MD thinks he is already in heaven and sinless, like the BVM I suppose.
B
By_His_Mercy
Guest
Well, I wouldn’t go that far! But one of the reasons why I came back to the Catholic church was the teaching I’ve received over the years that all of our future sins are forgiven, right now. The churches I’ve attended are very independent…if a pastor leaves, the people vote in a new pastor for themselves. In churches like these…over time the theology gets “tuned” to what the people want to hear…not necessarily to what they need to hear!
God bless you!
-BHM
C
clmowry
Guest
Interestingly enough, I have yet to encounter the OSAS God chooses who He wants, the rest are damned and we have nothing to do with the outcome fella that didn’t count themselves in the first group.
Why is that I wonder?
Chuck
P
Philthy
Guest
I’ll give it to you short and sweet, OK? Moondwellers version of the Gospel is very short - very, very short. We are saved instantly, completely and permanently at the time we come to true faith in Christ. Love and sin are irrelevent. The 10 Commandments are irrelevent. There is no such thing as losing salvation - period. From what I can gather from his responses over a number of threads anytime a verse of Scripture appears to violates the above theology, it is for one of the following reasons:
James is not speaking of salvation or eternal life - just temporal healing.
- you, the ECFs and the majority of biblical scholars and transcriptionists throughout the history of Christianity have misinterpreted the verse
- the verse of Scripture does not actually apply to the post-Crucifixion era.
- the verse does not apply to believers, only unbelievers - even when its written to a church or the faithful, etc.
- the verse does not mean what it says, it means something else (otherwise it would contradict his interpretation of Paul and that cant be possible)
- even if the context of the discussion is eternal life it does not necessarily mean it applies to salvation
This doesnt apply to believers - its only applicable in the pre-Crucifixion era.
1John was written for unbelievers (gnostics)
James is not speaking of salvation or eternal life - just temporal healing.
This does not refer to a believer who has strayed. This person was never saved.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
We are saved initially through baptism. Plain and simple.
M
moondweller
Guest
I don’t judge one’s salvation, period. But if someone who claims belief in Christ sins continuously with an “I don’t care” attitude, I would not believe his profession of faith in Christ.1 Cor. 5:11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one."There are false brethren, Phil.
As for eternal security (OSAS), it’s based entirely on divine revelation. What God has revealed. If you want to know if you yourself are eternally secure you must look to God’s Word, not the behavior of other men. God is the One who saves (He does the saving) and there is absolutely no revelation that says He reverses it (that He unsaves those He once saved through faith in Christ). Salvation is gifted by God at the time of faith in Christ and, according to God’s Word, “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).
But you can accept none of this since you believe only in “initial” salvation and “initial” justification. And you’re still dealing with sins sacramentally that Christ dealt with, once for all, sacrificially 2000 years ago:Heb 9:24-26 “For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a {mere} copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”
Heb 10:12-14 "…but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."Paul says that the righteous shall live by faith. God has revealed to us in His written Word that those who believe in Christ He justifies (reckons righteous), and imputes to them Christ’s righteousness (Phil. 3:9; 2 Cor. 5:21). It is these righteous (Rom. 5:19), according to God’s grace, that are to live by faith in what God has revealed He has DONE for them through Christ, once for all (time). It’s what pleases Him. It shouts: GRACE! to His glory.
M
moondweller
Guest
How many of your sins did Christ bear on the cross? Can that which was laid on the Substitute be laid back on the sinner? Or did Christ die needlessly?
What does this mean?Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
**
Acts 13:38** “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Acts 26:18 "…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
R
runandsew
Guest
So, as you go along in life and commit new sins, do you have to be sorry, repent and ask for forgiveness each time?
Or do you go on sinning, knowing that they all have already been forgiven, and all the sinning does is hurt your relationship with God, but not your salvation? You try not to sin, but in the long haul, it doesn’t effect your salvation?
T
Thing
Guest
21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Christ bore all the sins of the world in the Garden of Gethsemani when He sweated blood. His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to remove all sin.
But … He came into the world for the sinners, He forgave sinners sins rather than cure them, as that was His mission - to be a doctor to the soul, not the body. This mission He passed on to the Apostles when He breathed on them, receive ye the Holy Ghost. As the Father hath sent me I also send you. whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven…
But I thought you said Christ had already forgiven all sins from the cross, … why does He commission the Apostles to go and continue to Forgive Sins.
There should be no more unforgiven sins left in the world.
And what about retaining sins.
If Christ has already forgiven all the sins in the world why is He telling…ordering… the Apostles that they may Retain Sins in His Name By the power of the Holy Ghost and that those sins will be retained…even though, apparently He has already forgiven them. Is He confused?
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Yes - everyone who believes in Him MAY be forgiven - if he repents of his sins.
“Once Saved Always Saved?” If you mean by this you are saved “now” on earth - NO!!!
God judges every man and no one is saved until they are in heaven. This popular salvation slogan of Calvin is objectively flawed since it speaks of salvation in the time of one’s lifetime - BEFORE GOD JUDGES. OSAS as taught by Protestants attempts to deny God’s sovereignty and ABSOLUTE right to judge a soul and to reward or punish it for its every deed. OSAS is only valid in the context of post-judgement where one is saved in heaven and there is incapable of ever sinning again or ever again falling from grace.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
“For when the soul that is united with Christ forsakes its faith, it is given over to perpetual death, viz., eternal punishment.” (St. Hippolytus, On Daniel, 170-236 AD).
Matthew 24:10-13
And at that time **many will fall away **and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many [e.g. OSAS doctrine]. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love (agape) will grow cold. 13 **"But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. **
The Necessity & Practice of Orally Confessing Sins:
James
N
notsmart
Guest
I can’t understand your views much at all moondweller. You seem to be very opposed to asking God for forgiveness of sins you commit today, or anytime you are committing one. It seems this is in direct conflict with any understanding I have on the matter from reading the bible. The man who claims they are without sin is either delusional or unaware of what sins are and could also be suffering from a God complex.
- Status