How are we saved?

[By_His_Mercy]

In the Bible.

Yes, 1 Jn 1:9-2:2…it’s real sin that needs Jesus’ real propitiation (in the context).

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1 Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

God bless you,
-BHM

 

[By_His_Mercy]

The believer is forgiven all his sins when he believers.

.
:extrahappy: OH HAPPY DAY!!!:extrahappy:
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Past sins, right? Isn’t this the “purification of your former sins” in 2 Pet 1:9?

I think it’s past sins…and we receive ongoing forgiveness when we confess (1 Jn 1:9) and at the anointing of the sick (James 5:14-15).

What do you think?
-BHM

 

[sandusky]

By His Mercy:

Past sins, right? Isn’t this the “purification of your former sins” in 2 Pet 1:9?

I think it’s past sins…and we receive ongoing forgiveness when we confess (1 Jn 1:9) and at the anointing of the sick (James 5:14-15).

What do you think?
-BHM

”Short-sighted and blind” is a strange statement. I think his point is that some believers lack the maturity to look back far enough to see the sin, and the life of sin, from which they were delivered.

James discusses the connection that sometimes exists between sickness and sin. All sickness does not have to do with sin (Jn. 9:3), but sin can cause sickness as a discipline (1 Cor. 11:30, 32). If sin is involved, then this to be dealt with before moving on to the sickness itself. James assures his readers that such sins will be forgiven. In fact, James argues that it would be better to take care of sin before it causes severe illness. I think that there’s is value in confessing sin out loud and receiving from another believer the assurance that it is forgiven.

If you look back a few verses in the 1 John passage, the cleansing by Jesus’ blood is a cleansing from all sin, and it’s a present tense verb; IOW, Jesus’ blood is continually cleansing the believer; that is not forgiveness.

The believer’s complete debt for sin was cancelled at the cross (cf Col 2:13ff).

 

[Philthy]

Thank you for thanking me.

You don’t understand predestination.

I’m not going to bother with this, Phil, how many times…???

The word for confess is an interesting one; it’s compound, and literally means to “say the same [thing]” as God; IOW, to agree with God that I need a savior, that I’m dependent upon Him, and that I’m thankful for the complete forgiveness of sins in Christ.

It’s a parable, Phil, the point of which is, simply stated, that those forgiven by God must themselves be forgiving.

What you’re scenario does is place that simple truth into a cumbersome works/righteousness framework. :ehh:

Thanks for your points, Sandusky.

 

[sandusky]

Yes, 1 Jn 1:9-2:2…it’s real sin that needs Jesus’ real propitiation (in the context).

1 Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1 Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

God bless you,
-BHM

The question is, where is the believer instructed to ask for forgiveness of sins?

 

[sandusky]

Thanks for your points, Sandusky.

 

[notsmart]

That’s a stacked analogy; just take the teaching of scripture.

The clear teaching of scripture is that in Christ is found the forgiveness of sins, and that forgiveness is on the basis of Christ’s perfect sacrifice, and it’s gifted by grace and appropriated by the gift of faith.

Should you strive to be right with God? By the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, those in Christ are in a perfect and right standing with God, but that doesn’t preclude sanctification—the continual movement away from sin to holiness.

Should the believer confess his sin to God? I do; there’s nothing sinful in acknowledging one’s sin, even when all of one’s sins, past, present and future are already forgiven.

Am I wrong in feeling you are saying its almost optional to pray to God when I know I have injured his will for me?

 

[sandusky]

Am I wrong in feeling you are saying its almost optional to pray to God when I know I have injured his will for me?

Yes, you are wrong in that “feeling.”

 

[notsmart]

Yes, you are wrong in that “feeling.”

Can you tell me why you ignored my previous question to you I quoted you on that is basically- the same question?

 

[Philthy]

You don’t understand predestination

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I think most Protestants just don’t understand works salvation in the Catholic sense of works. The RC works seem to be more ceremonial/ritualistic

, What you don’t understand is that a sacrament is not a “ritual” or a “ceremony”. It just appears that way to you because you don’t listen when we try to explain what is happening. A sacrament is how God imbues the faithful seeker with the Holy Spirit. What Protestants forget is that we are not just a mind that needs to “believe in Jesus”. Believing in Jesus is very important, but there is more than the mind; there is the spirit, the soul, the heart, and the body. All of these uncounscious aspects of the self receive grace through the Holy Spirit when you receive a sacrament. So, you see, the lack of understanding stems from the word you are using- ritual!

 

[Philthy]

The question is, where is the believer instructed to ask for forgiveness of sins?

Uhh, lets see…John wrote it, he’s a believer and he uses the word “we” as in if “we” confess our sins. We usually means self included.
Here are plenty of options he could have chosen instead of the self-inclusive “we”:

If one confesses…
If someone confesses
Anyone who confesses…
If you confess…
If *they *confess…
If any confess…

 

[Ardoyne]

As a Protestant, we often say, “We are saved by believing the Gospel, or putting our trust in Jesus/giving Him our life.”

The Bible says the gospel is the good news that God sent his only Son, the Messiah, the annointed one, to save Jews and Gentiles by dying for our sins, and rising from the dead and that we too will rise from the dead.

How do Catholics say we are saved? If I were an atheist or another religion or knew nothing about Christ/ God, and asked how I can go to Heaven/( Which I guess I wouldn’t ask if I were an atheist, but play along…), what would you say?

Through Faith in Jesus Christ. Excepting that Jesus died for our sins and that we are sinners in need of redemtion. Once we accept this free gift we now need to live it. As it says in James “faith without works is dead” faith without love is dead. Love is faith in action.

 

[Ardoyne]

Through Faith in Jesus Christ. Excepting that Jesus died for our sins and that we are sinners in need of redemtion. Once we accept this free gift we now need to live it. As it says in James “faith without works is dead” faith without love is dead. Love is faith in action.

 

[sandusky]

Can you tell me why you ignored my previous question to you I quoted you on that is basically- the same question?

Perhaps I missed it; will you reference a post number, please?

 

[notsmart]

Why do you make apologies for rituals or ceremonies? In fact, can you even tell me why either are wrong?

, What you don’t understand is that a sacrament is not a “ritual” or a “ceremony”. It just appears that way to you because you don’t listen when we try to explain what is happening. A sacrament is how God imbues the faithful seeker with the Holy Spirit. What Protestants forget is that we are not just a mind that needs to “believe in Jesus”. Believing in Jesus is very important, but there is more than the mind; there is the spirit, the soul, the heart, and the body. All of these uncounscious aspects of the self receive grace through the Holy Spirit when you receive a sacrament. So, you see, the lack of understanding stems from the word you are using- ritual!

 

[sandusky]

Uhh, lets see…John wrote it, he’s a believer and he uses the word “we” as in if “we” confess our sins. We usually means self included.
Here are plenty of options he could have chosen instead of the self-inclusive “we”:

If one confesses…
If someone confesses
Anyone who confesses…
If you confess…
If *they *confess…
If any confess…

That’s not an imperative, nor does it instruct the believer to ask for forgiveness.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

That’s not an imperative, nor does it instruct the believer to ask for forgiveness.

Then what do you propose a believer do if a believer sins?

It seems that there are 3 options.

1- Admit the believer is not really a believer since he was not magically changed into a person who never sins after his alter call

2- Trust that sin is irrelevant because the believer has already ‘asked Jesus to live in heart’

3- Keep the sin quiet and don’t tell anyone but secretly ask Jesus for forgiveness

 

[sandusky]

Philthy:

Perhaps I’m predestined not to understand it. Then again, perhaps you couldnt genuinely respond to what I posted but instead felt compelled to say something without actually saying anything. Could be both, actually…

Perhaps you’re not, Phil, time will tell.

Philthy:

Every time you lead , I’ll follow with my rebuttal. The ball is in your court.

I just returned it past you; so I’m done with that.

Philthy:

Do you have a source for this? I got the sense it was more along the lines of “admitting with” God, or to God. But I may be wrong.

Myself.

Here’s the word: ὁμολογεῶ.

The first part, phonetically is “homo,” you know what that means—same.

The second part, phonetically is “legeō,” to say, or to speak.

Philthy:

This I dont need the source for … it’s you! Anyhow, this seems like a slight deviation from 1J1:9 IMHO. If the verse read “If we confess our SINFULNESS…” then I would accept the above more readily. But the actual verse says “If we confess our SINS…” which seems a little different.

OK, the answer is found in what is done for the one confessing. What’s done for that one?

Philthy:

Really? At the request of his Apostles to be taught how to pray Jesus delivers the Lord’s Prayer. You think the Lord’s Prayer is a parable? All of it?
And just so we’re clear on the “simply stated” point, what does the term “must themselves be” mean in your statement above? “Must be” otherwise…what? No doubt that will get tossed into the ever handy “loss of rewards” pile. That would be the same pile that doesnt affect our eternal happiness, right?

Sorry, Phil, I went to the parable in Mt 18, and my answer is the same: those forgiven by God must themselves be forgiving.

 

[sandusky]

Then what do you propose a believer do if a believer sins?

It seems that there are 3 options.

1- Admit the believer is not really a believer since he was not magically changed into a person who never sins after his alter call

2- Trust that sin is irrelevant because the believer has already ‘asked Jesus to live in heart’

3- Keep the sin quiet and don’t tell anyone but secretly ask Jesus for forgiveness

None of what you’ve listed.