How are we saved?

[Philthy]

You must be kidding me. You want me to believe something that some men from the Roman catholic church decided on and consider it to be equal to scripture. You are sadly way out in left field, and are being mislead. Get to the word of God and get away from these so called “traditional” things that Roman catholics believe. The only book that is inspired is the Bible, and you will be judged by it in the end. Ralph

Kettle calling the pot black, Ralphy? Opinions are one thing - facts are another - IMHO you seem to prefer opinion over fact. We cant get to the “word of God” without believing in “something some men from the (Catholic Church) decided on”. And they decided on several books more than you have in your bible.
And while we are at it, have you ever read Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology? I have - cover to cover. It is a biblical systematic theology - sort of what you are proposing we do - written by an evangelical protestant . My point? The plethora of theologies contained in this one text (1200 pages) reveals just how irretractibly diverse, contradictory and confused people become when they attempt to establish theology from the Bible alone. Major doctrine, minor doctrine, essentials and non-essentials are all up for grabs with no one to authoritatively declare what the inspired Bible actually says that we “will be judged on in the end”. Somehow that doesnt seem like a useful approach to me.

Blessings

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jn 3:5 has ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with water baptism. Water baptism can’t save anyone.

You are simply wrong. You continue to separate the Blood of Christ from the Baptism of Christ. It’s not one or the other; it is both in a harmonious whole.

You have NEVER been washed in the blood of Christ. If so, show me the clothing stained with Christ’s blood. I want to see it.

However, you may have been baptized; in this way, the forgiveness of Christ won through the shedding of His blood was applied to you.

It is through baptism that you enter into Christ and salvation “as through a door.”

Unfortunately, many people believe that baptism is merely a symbolic act that one performs before the community of believers as an outward sign of an inward decision to accept Christ as one’s “personal Lord and Savior”. Is this view biblical or does God view baptism differently? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

Baptism Commanded by Jesus

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Some argue that in this verse, “born of water” refers to the placenta fluid of physical birth. However, there is no scriptural basis for this interpretation. Instead, as the references from Ezekiel and the New Testament passages make clear, the “water” connected with the Holy Spirit is the water of the sacrament of baptism – not that of physical birth. Jesus’ words, understood properly, tell us that unless one is “born of baptism and the Spirit” he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This point is underscored by the fact that Jesus and the disciples went out to baptize immediately following this verse.

Titus 3:5
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Rebirth? As in “born again”? Renewal by the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that regeneration?

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In this passage containing the very last instructions Jesus gave His disciples, we see how important baptism was to Him. He did not say, “Go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to accept me as their personal Lord and Savior and baptizing them as an outward symbol of this inward acceptance…”

Baptism Saves

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Baptism Washes Away Sin

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

At Pentecost, Peter told the crowd to “be baptized…for the forgiveness of…sins.” After that, “you will receive…the Holy Spirit”. Once again, we see the elements of Water and Spirit…just as Ezekiel prophesied. Note too, that this promise is for “you and your children” – a clear endorsement of infant baptism.

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

Baptism Makes Us Part of the Body of Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

 

[ralphy]

Kettle calling the pot black, Ralphy? We cant get to the “word of God” without believing in “something some men from the (Catholic Church) decided on”. Opinions are one thing - facts are another. You seem to prefer opinion over fact.

Blessings

My friend, the Holy Bible written by men and inspired by the Holy Spirit is “all” fact. God purposely left His word (the bible) so that we would not go astray with tradition or unwritten directions for life and death. If I quote scripture to you, surely you would not take that as “just an opinion” would you. You also must distinguish between catholic (meaning universal) and “Roman catholic” (meaning run by Rome). I belong to the catholic church, as I am a born again christian and part of the Body of Christ. Ralph

 

[Randy_Carson]

You must be kidding me. You want me to believe something that some men from the Roman catholic church decided on and consider it to be equal to scripture. You are sadly way out in left field, and are being mislead. Get to the word of God and get away from these so called “traditional” things that Roman catholics believe. The only book that is inspired is the Bible, and you will be judged by it in the end. Ralph

Ralphy-

This is where you have been led astray by your spiritual forefathers, the men who began the Protestant Reformation.

Jesus did not leave us a book; He left behind an authoritative Church that speaks for Christ Himself (He who hears you hears me). That Church has, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, written and compiled a set of writings that we know to be inspired precisely because the infallible Church established by Christ has told us that it is inspired.

That book, which you have received through the efforts of the Catholic Church, declares that the Catholic Church, the one and only Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself (cf. Mt. 16:18) must be infallible because of the promises of Christ Himself.

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time.

 

[ralphy]

Ralphy-

This is where you have been led astray by your spiritual forefathers, the men who began the Protestant Reformation.

Jesus did not leave us a book; He left behind an authoritative Church that speaks for Christ Himself (He who hears you hears me). That Church has, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, written and compiled a set of writings that we know to be inspired precisely because the infallible Church established by Christ has told us that it is inspired.

That book, which you have received through the efforts of the Catholic Church, declares that the Catholic Church, the one and only Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself (cf. Mt. 16:18) must be infallible because of the promises of Christ Himself.

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time.

Have you any idea who or what the church is. Let me hear your interpretation please. Thank you. Ralph

 

[tukfryer]

Have you any idea who or what the church is. Let me hear your interpretation please. Thank you. Ralph

I agree Ralph all the verses post are interpreted threw the lens of the RCC
Not the HS or other scripture that supports the interpretation

Notice how in the beginning Matthew 16:18 everything hangs on the RCC interpretation of it.
Tradition, interpretation, the exclusive power the RCC claims.
They have built the entire RCC on that verse… instead of Jesus

 

[paul_c]

All,

I think its time to sum up the discussion and reset

I think all of us agree that we are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ. The main point of contention between us is whether a simple statement of Faith is sufficient to be saved or whether you need to go through the physical act of baptism to demonstrate that faith and the desire to be saved. It is and has always been the Catholic view that physical baptism is necessary to demonstrate Faith and the desire to be part of the church. With that physical baptism, all prior sins are forgiven. I know that some of you believe that physical baptism is not necessary , but you need to recognize that when you are doing that you go against the advice of St. Peter at Pentecost. Here is his witness from Acts 2: 36-39:
Therefore let the whole house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified." Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?” Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

As for those that argue about the details of baptism, whether it should apply to children, whether it needs to be full immersion to be valid, whether baptism of desire is valid, I would maintain that God knows what is in our hearts and will judge accordingly. But I would also warn those that know that Jesus was baptized himself at the beginning of his ministry as an example to us all, that your failure to be baptized yourselves is also a statement of your fidelity to his message.

The second big difference between us is whether once saved, we can lose our salvation. As far as I understand it, there are three basic views on this:

The first and most liberal view is that of the Free Grace Theologists, who believe that once a proclamation of faith is made, then salvation is assured for all time, regardless of future action of the part of the saved, even to the point of apostacy and murder. Under this theology, Jesus gives us FREE GRACE without any merit or obligation on our part. The argument for this theology is that Jesus can not lose what is given to him and no one can proclaim faith in Jesus even once without the gift of grace, which can never be lost.

The second, intermediate view is that of Lordship Salvation Theology. Those that believe in this view recognize that those who are really called to Salvation would try to follow Christ’s example of doing good works, not because they have to to be saved, because they believe they are saved from the first proclamation of faith, but because the saved are compelled to do the will of God. Unlike the adherents of the Free Grace theology, the followers of Lordship theology would recognize that habitual sinners were never really saved, regardless of their claims of faith.

The third view is that of the Catholics. Unlike the other two theologies, Catholic theology requires that those are initially saved through baptism must stay in the state of grace by doing the will of the Father thereafter. If you fall out of the state of Grace through sin, you must go through the sacrament of reconcilation (contrition, confession, repentance and penance) to return to the state of grace. You must die in the state of Grace to go to heaven so salvation is never assured until you did. This is completely consistent with scripture. First of all, when Jesus was asked what was required to get to heaven in Matthew 19: 16-21, he answered:
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’" The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
continued

 

[paul_c]

St. paul echoes this in Romans 2: 1-10

Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things. We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
The Apostles right to forgive sins is clear from John 20: 19-23
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

finally, St. John in his first epistle chapter 2: 3-6 says:
The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his command ments. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I agree Ralph all the verses post are interpreted threw the lens of the RCC
Not the HS or other scripture that supports the interpretation

Notice how in the beginning Matthew 16:18 everything hangs on the RCC interpretation of it.
Tradition, interpretation, the exclusive power the RCC claims.
They have built the entire RCC on that verse… instead of Jesus

What you consider just a verse is a verse with the words the Lord spoke. How is that not building on His word?

When you interpret scriptures through the Church Christ built, you are interpreting scriptures through the Holy Spirit and there have been other scriptures used to support interpretations, but the problem is Protestants reject every aspect of the Catholic interpretation. It seems to be avoidance of any agreement, because if we’re right on one point, we’re going to be right on others and Protestantism cannot stand alone if Catholicism is right.

Logically, there has to be some agreements, since Protestantism came from Catholicism. It was not the other way around.

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Hi Canto,
I agree with James
James 2:18:

But someone may {well} say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Repentance is an act of faith

1. The thief showed his faith by trusting in Jesus
2. He acted on faith by stadning up for Jesus against the mockers
3. He publicly proclaimed the innocence of Christ - a good work
4. He acknowledged his own guilt etc

I agree that one cannot repent (turn to God) without belief in God, & His Son. However, as to the above points I cannot entirely agree.

1. Faith is greater than merely believing. As saint James also says, “even demons believe and tremble”. (e.g. Judas believed and being filled with remorse he went out and hung himself . Was his self disdain repentance?

Hbr 11:1:

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

1. The thief acted on truth & belief - faith came later. He did not yet have assurance.
2. Some might call telling the truth a good work. I’m not sure I’d go that far.
3. Agreed, he acknowledged his own guilt - so did Judas!
   True repentance is seeing who you really are in the Light of God, both in the truth of His goodness, and in the standard of His Law but it must finalize itself in a complete turning to Christ to whom we make our plea.
   We know the “Good” thief (no one is good except God) we know fully repented for the Lord accepted His repentance.

Luke 23:42:

Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Infering our Lord knew this sinner was speaking in truth & requesting the gift of His mercy. Contrast his plea to the other thief to whom Jesus did not accept his plea although he desired & requested he be saved.
Luk 23:39:

Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

this was not repentence, nor acceptable belief but blasphemy!
Luk 23:40-41:

But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”

Now we know that it is God alone who can save and the choice is His alone of whom He will save, according to His omnipotent will.
Rom 9:15:

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

'but thankfully we also know His promises are always ‘yea!’. God cannot lie about His promises.
2Cor1:20:

quotquot enim promissiones Dei sunt in illo est ideo et per ipsum amen Deo ad gloriam nostram
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

So this sinning thief who fell far short of the glory of God then fulfilled what saint Paul stated to us:
Rom 10:9:

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

You may ask me but Jesus was not yet risen from the dead but this man confessed Him King of an eternal Kingdom and knew that death could not hold Him for He said: Luke 23:42

Now to faith:
Before faith truly came John preached repentance.
Luke - book of Acts:

Act 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

So saint Paul definitely does make a distinction between repentance and faith - although I agree they are complementary.
St. Paul:

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 2:1-5 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

So it is God’s kindness and the realization of His Love that lead to repentance. The Thief knew Jesus was kind and Good, that He was Messiah (Christ) and Son of God. He was accepted by both the Son and the Father and is a shining example of how we, who have fallen short of the Glory of God can be saved by the kindness of God.
John 4:23-24:

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

I long for the day when faith shall be sight!

May God Bless!

 

[paul_c]

I agree Ralph all the verses post are interpreted threw the lens of the RCC
Not the HS or other scripture that supports the interpretation

Notice how in the beginning Matthew 16:18 everything hangs on the RCC interpretation of it.
Tradition, interpretation, the exclusive power the RCC claims.
They have built the entire RCC on that verse… instead of Jesus

You need to learn more about Catholicism if you believe that the RCC is built on a verse of scripture rather than Jesus. The Catholic Church’s entire reason for existing is to spread the good news about Jesus Christ and help people gain eternal life. The scripture as you know it is a divinely inspired tool of the Catholic Church to carry out that mission.

You seem to think that you have a superior lens in which to interpret scripture than the Catholic Church, which actually was responsible for the Bible in the first place. How are you in any way more qualified to interpret the Bible than the Catholic Church? What are your credentials? If you are basing it on someone elses interpretation, what are their credentials? Why should we trust our souls to your interpretation? If you really want us to do that, you better have a really, really good reason, because we have 2000 years of consistent interpretations, going back to the apostles through the early church fathers that are fully documented that you must refute…

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

The word of God that is living and active and Judging Is Jesus Christ, not the Bible.

Is there an official Catholic commentary? Is your understanding of Hebrews 4:12 the official view?

Heb4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience…11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

[EdOsiecki]

[Canto]“But we are all like an unclean thing, and all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags” (Isa. 64:6).Reference Isaiah the prophet summed up the wretched state into which the covenant people of God had sunk. Though they had the boon of receiving the Law from Mount Sinai, though they had come out of Egypt through the Red Sea, they had turned from their Lawgiver. The children of Zion were worshipping false gods (42:17). They were reveling in the dregs of idolatry. So much so, the prophet calls Jerusalem a harlot (1:21) and likens it to Sodom (3:9).

And yet, the people had an illusion of righteousness. Some of them professed to be “holier than thou,” even while burning incense on strange altars (65:3-5). But God did not esteem their righteousness to be anything but pollution. He even hated the Sabbaths and feasts that He had Himself ordained (1:13,14). The house of Jacob’s apostasy had rendered its best acts of religion unclean. Like the wind, sins were sweeping people away (64:6b).

How appropriate that the prophet would break into such hyperbole as to call this supposed goodness “filthy rags.” What better way to call the nation to repentance? In the context of proud Judah’s barrenness, the rebuke comes with the force of a thunderbolt.

This is most certainly the way the text should be read. We have all heard that “a text without a context is a pretext.” This applies here. The “filthy rags” must be understood historically and with application to the audience: apostate Jerusalem.

The obvious teaching of the Bible is that acts of virtue and goodness are pleasing to God. He does not view them as filthy, unless they are done with false intentions (cp. Matt. 6:2). In fact, God was pleased with Cornelius’ alms, even before that man was converted to Christ (Acts 10:4). This alone should negate the popular application of Isaiah 64:6.

Amazingly, the preceding verse in the book of Isaiah teaches the exact opposite of the common interpretation of “filthy rags.” Listen to the prophet: “You [the Lord] meet him who rejoices and does righteousness” (Isa. 64:5). Genuine works of righteousness, says Isaiah, are valuable; God meets us when we walk in them. Are we told the opposite thing one verse later? That hardly seems reasonable.

Jesus taught that God will reward even small works, such as giving a child a cup of water (Matt. 10:42). Our Lord commands us to let our good deeds “shine before men,” that they might glorify the Father (Matt. 5:16). Paul writes that we are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works” (Eph. 2:10).

The apostle erases all doubt as to how God views works of righteousness. Paul urges the saints to “walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work” (Col. 1:10). Notice that pleasing God is connected to righteous works. They are clearly not filthy rags in the sight of God; they are a delight to Him.

Yes, our works are imperfect. But the Scripture affirms repeatedly that our Father smiles upon our acts of goodness. No one will be saved without them. Jesus states in John 5:29 that the resurrection unto life is for those who have “done good.” Paul writes that God redeemed us to make us “His own special people, zealous for good works” (Tit. 2:14). And so, the entire scheme of redemption has as a focus good works - and a glorious resurrection to those who have walked in them for Christ’s sake.

No, we do not put God in our debt by doing good deeds. We cannot merit salvation by balancing our works with our sins. Salvation and forgiveness lie in our covenant status with God through Christ. But the imitation of our Lord - which includes works (Acts 10:38) - is an obligation of the covenant. It is also a high privilege and a joy.

Clearly, God does not view our righteous acts as filthy rags, but as costly apparel purchased with the blood of Christ.

Hi Canto, This is Ed thanking you much for such a lenghty reply. To summarize it all, Yes, God loves good works, He expects us to do them for which we will receive rewards but they are not good works unto salvation. He (Jesus) did it (salvation) as a free gift on the cross. If we add good works to a free gift, it no longer is a free gift. When we consider good works to earn salvation ,that’s when they become filthy rags. Next Act 10 shows us two major points. (A) Cornelius’ prayers and alms giving came up for a memorial before God. On those basis alone, Cornelius wouldn’t be saved. It was necessary for Cornelius to hear and receive the gospel which saved him ( with out water baptism which came later to shown his repentance). (B) Because Peter was told not to preach to the Gentiles only to the house of Israel, (Jews), since God already had Paul in mind to preach to the Gentiles, it had to be made clear to Peter that Gentiles are now included. Otherwise he would have clashed with Paul coming onto the scene. ED

 

[EdOsiecki]

In my opinion based of what I understand of scripture, spiritual baptism is “the washing of water by the word” and not of water in believers baptism. Water can never take away sin, only the blood of Christ can take sin away. Ralph

Hi Raphy ,This ED saying AMEN! AMEN! AMEN to your above reply.

 

[Canto]

Hi Canto, This is Ed thanking you much for such a lenghty reply. To summarize it all, Yes, God loves good works, He expects us to do them for which we will receive rewards but they are not good works unto salvation.

What rewards in your opinion will we recieve via good works?
If he expects us to do them, what happens if we don’t do them?
Will we still be saved if we don’t do them?
If faith without works is dead, can dead faith save us? c.f. James 2:14
When asked how to get eternal life Jesus says keep the commandmants

Paul says if we have all faith and not charity we are nothing
James says we are justifed by works and not by faith alone
John says if we don’t love we don’t know God
Paul says love/charity is greater than faith
1 Cor 16:14 all things should be done in charity
Eph 4:15 we should do the truth in charity

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts: that, being rooted and founded in charity,

Philipians 1:9 And this I pray: That your charity may more and more abound in knowledge and in all understanding:

Colosians 3:14 But **above all **these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection.

He (Jesus) did it (salvation) as a free gift on the cross. If we add good works to a free gift, it no longer is a free gift. When we consider good works to earn salvation ,that’s when they become filthy rags.

We don’t do good works to earn salvation
Just as we don’t have faith merely to score a spot in heaven

We are justified by grace through faith - rooted and founded in charity - when baptised.

We should stay in this state of grace however, “For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries” Hebrews 10:26-27

Titus 3:8 It is a faithful saying. And these things I will have thee affirm constantly, that they who believe in God may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

 

[tukfryer]

Have you any idea who or what the church is. Let me hear your interpretation please. Thank you. Ralph

I agree Ralph all the verses post are interpreted threw the lens of the RCC
Not the HS or other scripture that supports the interpretation

Notice how in the beginning Matthew 16:18 everything hangs on the RCC interpretation of it.
Tradition, interpretation, the exclusive power the RCC claims.
They have built the entire RCC on that verse… instead of Jesus

What you consider just a verse is a verse with the words the Lord spoke. How is that not building on His word?

Its rather simple really you inserted Peter as the premise for your authority.
The RCC cant simply be another member of the body of Christ like it should be, instead it insist it is all RCC or nothing based on Peter. So your church is built on Peter / Mat 16:18, along with the presumption that this presumed apostolic gift of Peters is passed along. At best the RCC stands with one foot on Jesus and the other on Peter. Every time you claim your singular salvation threw the RCC you are standing on Peter not Jesus.

 

[SteveGC]

To Ed and Ralph…and any other non-Catholic on here attempting to preach truth…

To show you that your understandings of “clear” and “obvious” meanings of Scripture are as solid as a sand castle at high tide, let me just say that your theologies are not just disputed by Catholics, but all breeds of Christians in the world.

But you don’t have to take my word for it, nor the words of any Catholic on this forum who shares that sentiment. Just go to any non-denom Christian internet forum and start posting some of the things you have here, and observe the disagreements and debates that will ensue with all sorts of non-Catholic Christians. I’m sure you’ll get some agreements here and there, but I know there are thousands upon thousands of non-C’s who believe in water baptism as salvific (in fact, Daniel on this thread is one of them), believe that you can lose salvation, do not believe in the rapture as you present it, etc etc. What’s more, they ALL demonstrate a passionate connection to Christ, and FIRMLY believe the Spirit is guiding them unto all truth.

You see, the main reason many of the astute, articulate and devout Catholics on here are engaging you is for the benefit of lurkers, who are often folks who do not post much, but read the thread from time to time. Many of them are searching for answers, and the Catholics here are not about to let erroneous doctrines, or even partial truths that you continuously post on here, go unanswered or not corrected. You are certainly welcome here, as much as myself or anyone else who follows the rules is welcome…and by no means do I wish to suggest that all of your opinions about Christian doctrine are not shared, in part, by The Church. I just want you to realize that Catholics are not brainwashed into believing what they believe, somehow living in fear that The Church will condemn them if they don’t follow the rules. No, to be Catholic is to recognize through and through that Christ has a visible Church on earth that will never go away, and will never lead the faithful astray. It’s as simple as that.

But by all means, you can certainly keep on laying out verse after verse for us, and then giving us your opinions on what they mean, and then claim how absolutely “clear” the message is. But you’re kidding yourself if you think you’re discerning truths from Scripture by yourself with the Spirit as your guide. Paul C has tried to get through to you, asking the critical question over and over again…‘what makes YOUR interpretation the correct one?’. The only response we get is that you’re just quoting Scripture, and that the message from it is crystal clear.

Really? If it’s THAT clear, how is that all the non-Catholics in the world out there, free from the clutches of “pagan Rome”, are **not in any semblance of unity **on these matters? I mean, you really don’t think YOU are the only ones feeling moved by the Spirit, do you? Are all the other faithful, devout non-Catholics out there that disagree with you just wrong, and you’re right? Please tell us how that is so.

 

[Philthy]

My friend

Hi Ralphy!

, the Holy Bible written by men and inspired by the Holy Spirit is “all” fact.

Holy Bible? I dont recall that term from Holy Scripture. Where did you come up with the term - is it a tradition handed down to you ? It is. :yup: On what basis do you accept the tradition?

God purposely left His word (the bible) so that we would not go astray with tradition or unwritten directions for life and death.

Yet another opinion Ralphy. Even if I accept your premise of Scripture as the sole rule of faith, where in said Scripture would I find the concept that God will be leaving a NT so that we would not go astray with tradition? Short answer: nowhere. Where might I find Scripture directly contradicting the notion that unwritten tradition would be part of the deposit of faith? Several places. Scripture is truth, your opinion of what that truth is falls short.

If I quote scripture to you, surely you would not take that as “just an opinion” would you.

Quoting “Scripture” involves two opinions: 1) That what you have quoted actually is Scripture. If what you quoted was approved by the Catholic Church then I accept your quote of Scripture. 2) The second opinion is what the Scripture means. Scripture typically uses descriptive language (rather than affirmative, factual language) which requires interpretation.

You also must distinguish between catholic (meaning universal) and “Roman catholic” (meaning run by Rome). I belong to the catholic church, as I am a born again christian and part of the Body of Christ. Ralph

While there is a distinction between Catholic and catholic, it is irrelevent with respect to the topic. Scripture was revealed to us as Scripture by the Catholic Church through the guidance of the holy Spirit. Facts Ralphy, facts.

 

[ralphy]

You need to learn more about Catholicism if you believe that the RCC is built on a verse of scripture rather than Jesus. The Catholic Church’s entire reason for existing is to spread the good news about Jesus Christ and help people gain eternal life. The scripture as you know it is a divinely inspired tool of the Catholic Church to carry out that mission.

You seem to think that you have a superior lens in which to interpret scripture than the Catholic Church, which actually was responsible for the Bible in the first place. How are you in any way more qualified to interpret the Bible than the Catholic Church? What are your credentials? If you are basing it on someone elses interpretation, what are their credentials? Why should we trust our souls to your interpretation? If you really want us to do that, you better have a really, really good reason, because we have 2000 years of consistent interpretations, going back to the apostles through the early church fathers that are fully documented that you must refute…

If you figure that the catholic church is entitled to interpret scripture, then I have a license to interpret scripture, for I am part of the catholic church. I am just not part of the “Roman” catholic church, as I am sure these are the people you are refering to in the above statement. When I quote from the Bible, this is not my interpretation or anyone else’s, it is the Word of God. I also know about Roman catholicism, I have been there and done that. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Hi Ralphy!
Holy Bible? I dont recall that term from Holy Scripture. Where did you come up with the term - is it a tradition handed down to you ? It is. :yup: On what basis do you accept the tradition?
Yet another opinion Ralphy. Even if I accept your premise of Scripture as the sole rule of faith, where in said Scripture would I find the concept that God will be leaving a NT so that we would not go astray with tradition? Short answer: nowhere. Where might I find Scripture directly contradicting the notion that unwritten tradition would be part of the deposit of faith? Several places. Scripture is truth, your opinion of what that truth is falls short.

Quoting “Scripture” involves two opinions: 1) That what you have quoted actually is Scripture. If what you quoted was approved by the Catholic Church then I accept your quote of Scripture. 2) The second opinion is what the Scripture means. Scripture typically uses descriptive language (rather than affirmative, factual language) which requires interpretation.

While there is a distinction between Catholic and catholic, it is irrelevent with respect to the topic. Scripture was revealed to us as Scripture by the Catholic Church through the guidance of the holy Spirit. Facts Ralphy, facts.

I really think that you are beyond reach with the word of God, at least by me. My heart goes out to you, for once upon a time I had been where you are now . In Christian love. Ralph