How are we saved?

[GW]

Brother Ron,

You learned it from protestants and from Catholics before them. That’s the reality.

The Catholic Church taught you the true gospel message/contents orally through preaching and Mass and CCD classes and other religion classes (perhaps, if you had that) and the festivals of Christmas and Easter and Lent and Vespers, and doctrinal hymns and much much more. You learned the true christian doctrines and were taught your responsibilities as a christian. Whether you were faithful is a different matter.

If you are like many other Catholics who left the Church, the protestants probably tricked you into thinking that you didn’t know Christ or weren’t christian or didn’t know the basic christian teachings or weren’t “born again.” (Which, by the way, “born again” is Christ’s term for the birth of new life and Spirit that God gives men in water baptism). So you were born again as well, even though the protestants probably said you weren’t, out of their ignorance.

Could you have been instructed better? I guess it depends on how you were living your life and faith. Jesus said we “know a tree by its fruits”. Did you try to follow christian morals? Were you charitable? Did you believe that Christ was God? Were you faithful to your wife and kids? When you failed did your conscience bother you and urge you to make things right?

 

[GW]

RonNYC: The Pope is preaching salvation by faith.

GW: Yes, faith that includes good fruits of charity.

RonNYC: Does anyone know if Luther actually taught people to have faith and sin all you want?

GW: Yes, Luther said:

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world…No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. (A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon, Letter 99, 1 August 1521)

Luther confused the “works of the Law of Moses” with all general good works/fruits. And he further reasoned that if works couldn’t benefit you, then neither could bad works harm you. So he took all acts out of the picture.

St. Paul indeed rejected the view that one could be saved with God simply by obedience to the Law Covenant of Moses. The whole point of Christ’s New Covenant is that it alone is the covenant with men under which they can have transformation of sins, full peace with God, and heaven’s reward. The Old Law and its prescribed duties and practices were not capable of bringing one to justification and holiness and charity.

 

[Stephenite]

Brothers and sisters
One of the biggest deceptions that the protestants want Catholics to believe is that they read the “bible” more than us. Individually there is no proof of that whatsoever. Protestants do not read the Bible as much as Catholics do not read the bible!
Collectively the Catholic Church reads the bible in 3 year cycles ( currently cycle B ) at the Liturgies. That is where Catholics that never read the Bible learned it!

We as Christians should take time to read ,understand and reflect on Sacred Scripture.

 

[ron77nyc]

Brother Ron,

You learned it from protestants and from Catholics before them. That’s the reality.

The Catholic Church taught you the true gospel message/contents orally through preaching and Mass and CCD classes and other religion classes (perhaps, if you had that) and the festivals of Christmas and Easter and Lent and Vespers, and doctrinal hymns and much much more. You learned the true christian doctrines and were taught your responsibilities as a christian. Whether you were faithful is a different matter.

If you are like many other Catholics who left the Church, the protestants probably tricked you into thinking that you didn’t know Christ or weren’t christian or didn’t know the basic christian teachings or weren’t “born again.” (Which, by the way, “born again” is Christ’s term for the birth of new life and Spirit that God gives men in water baptism). So you were born again as well, even though the protestants probably said you weren’t, out of their ignorance.

Could you have been instructed better? I guess it depends on how you were living your life and faith. Jesus said we “know a tree by its fruits”. Did you try to follow christian morals? Were you charitable? Did you believe that Christ was God? Were you faithful to your wife and kids? When you failed did your conscience bother you and urge you to make things right?

I was never taught that salvation, justification and acceptance comes from my faith in Jesus. I was taught that I could never know if God accepted me. Faith in Jesus was not necessary. I had to keep going to Mass and confession to stay in a state of grace. Don’t blame me for the Church’s inability to understand and teach the gospel. I showed up every Sunday and Wednesday after school for a steady infusion of guilt and shame. Don’t accuse me of not getting it because I was living in sin. You’re only showing me how Catholic you really are by adding those comments.
If anyone is trying to trick anyone it is you telling me that the bible was not available because of illiteracy and lack of printing presses. How come the Protestants had bibles?

 

[golfjack]

The Bible says that faith without works is dead. What does God mean here? Let me give you an example. If God ( Holy Spirit) told me I could obtain a job, I am not going to obtain by sitting in a chair and do nothing. I must go out and apply for one. You see, I have faith that there is a job out there, but I have a responsibility to find one. Therefore, if I just sit in a chair, then my faith would be dead. We can apply this to anything God wants to give to us, and especially salvation. You see, we must believe, and activate this faith by confessing with our mouths that Jesus died on a cross, was rose again, and then we make Him our Lord and Savior. If we don’t, then faith is dead ( it will not work).
Peace, Golfjack

 

[GW]

Ron: I was never taught that salvation, justification and acceptance comes from my faith in Jesus.

GW: Yes you were. The Catholic Church teaches we are justified by faith with fruits. We don’t have any other teaching.

Ron: I was taught that I could never know if God accepted me.

GW: That’s tragic that you thought this, and I wonder if protestants told you that’s what you were being taught when such wasn’t really the case. Ron, we are God’s children at baptism, according to the Church’s teachings. However, as it is possible to use our wills to utterly reject God by persistent willful unrepented cooperation in evils, the Catholic teaching is that we have assurance so long as we pursue good fruits of charity and are not ungodly commandment-hating, liars, cheats, adulterers, swindlers, etc… And when we do fail, God commands us to confess our sins so as to be clean in God’s sight (1 John 1:9). Please read 1 John 3:5-19 for an excellent summary of our assurance and our mandate to reject sinful ways.

Ron: I had to keep going to Mass and confession to stay in a state of grace.

GW: Mass is our duty of worshipping God together and partaking often of the eucharist, which Jesus asks. Why would christians not want to worship God together and partake of the eucharist often when our Lord told us to do this?

As for Confession, you sin like the rest of us. Willful sinning corrupts us over time and requires ongoing confession and penance (1 John 1:9). The ministry of Reconciliation/Confession was given to the apostles so that the human inclination towards sin could be countered and healed with our willful participation (John 20:23). We are indeed to confess our faults publicly to men (James 5:16), not just privately to ourselves. Wronging others is a serious matter of injustice, and God is a God of justice.

Ron: I showed up every Sunday and Wednesday after school for a steady infusion of guilt and shame.

GW: It is only appropriate to have guilt and shame when we are busy cheating, lying, stealing, and doing other stuff we know is wrong. That’s proper guilt. BUT if you weren’t doing such things and still felt guilty, that’s not a catholic concept at all.

For sure, doing wrong deeds needs to be rectified through confession and penance. Everyone knows that when we steal, something has to be done to rectify the situation and bring the scales of justice back into proper balance. At every good confession of grave sins you heard the words: “I absolve you.” And indeed you were absolved and restored to purity of heart and action. Jesus performed that confessional ministry everywhere he went, and so do his ordained ministers today. It’s a healing ministry.

Ron: Don’t accuse me of not getting it because I was living in sin.

GW: I didn’t say you were “living in sin.”

Ron: If anyone is trying to trick anyone it is you telling me that the bible was not available because of illiteracy and lack of printing presses.

GW: Mass production of bibles was not remotely possible until after the Catholic Gutenberg created the printing press. Then even after that you also need retail bookstores, widespread literacy, and mass translation into diverse languages. All of that is modern.

Ron: How come the Protestants had bibles?

GW: Because the protestants came after Gutenberg and the printing press.

BTW, there is not a single protestant sect that predates about the 1400s. That proves that not a single one of the protestant sects was founded by Jesus Christ. Only the Catholic “denomination” traces all the way back to the apostles and Jesus in an unbroken succession. And St. Paul even wrote a letter to the Church at Rome, which was the hub of early Christianity.

 

[golfjack]

Ron, I am so sorrry for the experience you had. Mine is pretty much the same. I am not Catholic anymore, and was ex-communiucated ( didn’t know), and was told I couldn’t receive Communion at my father’s funeral because I left the Catholic Church. We Remember, we are saved by the precious Blood of Jesus and there is no remission of sins without the Blood. Also, the Bible says it is impossible to please God without faith.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[GW]

Golfjack: The Bible says that faith without works is dead. What does God mean here?

GW: Scripture gives nice examples of what that means:

“If someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.” (James 2)

AND

“Are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works” (James 2)

AND

“[God] will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.” (Romans 2:6-8)

 

[Stephenite]

Catholics see Faith as Grace from God;(Gratia Illuminationis,) an illuminatory revelation of the mind(conversion) followed by belief (Faith). Thus Salvation come from God!
Think of it as getting an acceptance letter to a prestigious university. You have been accepted but you have not yet graduated!- You have to do the work! (gratia

It is through the work of inspired Grace ( Gratia Inspirationis ) per Jesus commands in the Scriptures that you are justified — Graduate!

 

[GW]

Golfjack: we are saved by the precious Blood of Jesus and there is no remission of sins without the Blood.

GW: Yes, and…"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? " (1 Cor 10:16).

-AND ALSO-

“Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.” (Matt 26:26-28)

The precious blood of Jesus is to be experienced via the Eucharist that He Himself instituted for us and the remission of sins.

And by the way, it’s simple to come back to the Eucharist. Just go to Confession and say you want to partake again in the Lord’s body and blood shed for us. The priest will instruct you with wisdom and bless you with the Lord’s blessing of absolution. Simple and joyful.

 

[ron77nyc]

Putting all else aside and getting back to the subject which is “How are we saved?” I would like to ask how are we saved? If you were in an emergency, life and death situation what would you tell the person next to you who has never been to church about how he or she could be saved if you knew you only had a few more minutes to live?

 

[Love_is_Patient]

**Q. 561. Must we ourselves seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe?
A. We ourselves need not seek in the Scriptures and traditions for what we are to believe. God has appointed the Church to be our guide to salvation and we must accept its teaching us our infallible rule of faith. **

This means you don’t have to read the bible because the Church will tell you everything you need to know. The problem is this: they didn’t.

No, I think you might be misunderstanding. Have you considered that perhaps that means we should not consider our personal interpretations as infallibly inspired? That perhaps it means we should submit to the Church’s teaching of scripture?

Again, how do you reconcile your statement that “you don’t have to read the BIble” with the indulgence given for reading the Bible?

Love is Patient

 

[ron77nyc]

No, I think you might be misunderstanding. Have you considered that perhaps that means we should not consider our personal interpretations as infallibly inspired? That perhaps it means we should submit to the Church’s teaching of scripture?

Again, how do you reconcile your statement that “you don’t have to read the BIble” with the indulgence given for reading the Bible?

Love is Patient

I would like to be perfectly honest and tell you that I never studied the Baltimore Catechism. We had a very thin catechism with a green cover. I don’t know what version it was. I’m just trying to understand why we never read the bible in 20th century America.The Baltimore Catechism hints at an explanation. If you’re saying that your version offered indulgences for reading the bible I believe you, however we didn’t get indulgences for that in our church. We weren’t taught too much about indulgences so that’s not an issue with me. I was taught by very good nuns but they were only teaching what they were taught so I don’t blame them.
How do you reconcile the double message? You don’t have to read the bible but you get indulgences for reading it.

 

[paul_c]

Your vehement disagreement agrees with what I’m saying. I went to Catholic high school in New York in the 1960’s and we never saw a bible. I know that the situation has changed since then. I’m referring to my generation and all those before me. I know there may be some exceptions in different regions.

I think Luther was overcompensating for the Church’s complete neglect of this doctrine.

Faith in the risen Lord Jesus is not a detail. It’s the starting point. You left it out. Without that we are not Christians. Everything else means nothing without that. Without Jesus we are trying to save ourselves.

you are right, Faith in the risen Lord Jesus is not a detail. But its so ingrained in every Catholic’s training that it is taken for granted. If you don’t have faith in Jesus, you are not Catholic.

 

[ron77nyc]

you are right, Faith in the risen Lord Jesus is not a detail. But its so ingrained in every Catholic’s training that it is taken for granted. If you don’t have faith in Jesus, you are not Catholic.

If it was ingrained in Catholics in Luther’s day then why did he make such a big issue about it?

Every Catholic is not a Christian but what must we do to be saved? Paul was in jail and the earth was shaking. What did he tell the jailer? “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” It was a simple message. If you were in that same situation would you have said the same thing or would you have said more?

 

[paul_c]

I was never taught that salvation, justification and acceptance comes from my faith in Jesus.

You weren’t taught this because it is not the truth as you state it. Yes, salvation comes from Faith in Jesus and you are justified when you are baptized. But this justification is only in force as long as you stay in the state of Grace. And if you mean by acceptance, that you are guaranteed a place in heaven, well that is true if and only if you die in the state of Grace.

I was taught that I could never know if God accepted me.

You were taught correctly in this case. There is no guarantee of salvation until you are judged the day you die. If you die in the state of Grace, you will be saved.

Faith in Jesus was not necessary.

I am sure no one ever taught you that Faith in Jesus was not necessary for salvation. If you don’t have Faith in Jesus, you are not a Catholic. What you were probably really taught is that Faith alone isn’t enough. You need to demonstrate that Faith with Works of Love.

I had to keep going to Mass and confession to stay in a state of grace.

You were taught correctly in this matter and you retained it. That’s good.

Don’t blame me for the Church’s inability to understand and teach the gospel. I showed up every Sunday and Wednesday after school for a steady infusion of guilt and shame. Don’t accuse me of not getting it because I was living in sin. You’re only showing me how Catholic you really are by adding those comments.

What I can tell you is that the Church doesn’t create guilt. the Church tells you what you need to do to get to heaven. If you were feeling guilt and shame, that was your conscience speaking to you and asking you to reform your life so that you could be saved. That is a mercy, not a hindrance and it comes from the Holy Spirit inside you. And it is obvious that your conscience is still bugging you about this because your anger is palpable. You see, even though the Protestants have told you that your sins are meaningless and that they don’t effect your salvation, deep down you know that this is not true. You can’t escape it. God will not give up on you and will continue to provide you internal correction until you accept it and reform whatever it is that is bugging you.

If anyone is trying to trick anyone it is you telling me that the bible was not available because of illiteracy and lack of printing presses. How come the Protestants had bibles?

The Bible wasn’t readily available until after the printing press was invented in the 1450s. The Protestant Reformation began in the early 1500s after books became more available. Without that, the view of sola Scriptura would have been ludicrous because only the churches and the very wealthy had bibles so how could the masses be independent on scripture?

 

[paul_c]

If it was ingrained in Catholics in Luther’s day then why did he make such a big issue about it?

Every Catholic is not a Christian but what must we do to be saved? Paul was in jail and the earth was shaking. What did he tell the jailer? “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” It was a simple message. If you were in that same situation would you have said the same thing or would you have said more?

it wasn’t that Faith in Jesus wasn’t a big deal. That was always part of being a Catholic. It was Luther’s innovation that Faith alone was required for salvation that was a big deal because he denied that works of love are required for salvation, in direct contradiction to what James says in his epistle and what Christ said in the Gospels.

And yes, it all starts with Faith so that’s where Paul started with the Jailer. And to your earlier question, that’s what we would say to the person in the life or death situation. if the person professed his belief and water was available, we would baptize him in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If by some miracle, the man survived, we would tell him that now that he has been baptized and is in the state of Grace, he needs to stay that way through works of Love for God and neighbor. We would further tell him, that if he fails in this and turns from God in Sin, he can be reconciled through the sacrament of Reconciliation if he confesses contritely, repents and does penance for what he has done.

 

[SHW]

If they didn’t have printing presses and were illiterate, why would they have a catechism?
The bible tells us what the apostles taught. They did not teach the catechism.

The teachings were orally passed down. I think they did a great job considering 2000 years have passed by since they were first taught. It is plain that it is Jesus’ Church, founded by Him. He has kept it going for 2000 years, just as He said that He would. What other society can say the same? This does not mean that individual members did not do evil things. They did and still do, but so did Judas and he was chosen by Jesus personally.

The fact that there are bad members in His Church does not make Jesus’ Church’s teachings suspect. The Holy Spirit protects the Church and prevents her from teaching errors in faith and morals. He does not prevent individual members from sinning against the teachings of Jesus’ Church, however. They will be judged on this individually.

A Catechism is a condensed version of the major teachings in the Bible.

Forgiveness of others is mandated by Christ in order for oneself to be forgiven.

Pax,
SHW

 

[golfjack]

I have good news for you. Study 1 John 4:9: It says Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for JHis seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. The whoever is born again Christians. 1 John 4:4-9 is talking about sin and the child of God. PRAISE GOD. :dancing::bowdown2::juggle::getholy:
Peace, Golfjack

 

[ron77nyc]

You weren’t taught this because it is not the truth as you state it. Yes, salvation comes from Faith in Jesus and you are justified when you are baptized. But this justification is only in force as long as you stay in the state of Grace. And if you mean by acceptance, that you are guaranteed a place in heaven, well that is true if and only if you die in the state of Grace.

You were taught correctly in this case. There is no guarantee of salvation until you are judged the day you die. If you die in the state of Grace, you will be saved.

We do not get a guarantee and God does not owe us anything but the bible gives us more confidence in God’s participation in our salvation than traditional Catholic teaching gives us.

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
This Is Written That You May Know
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 “I and the Father are one.”

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

I am sure no one ever taught you that Faith in Jesus was not necessary for salvation. If you don’t have Faith in Jesus, you are not a Catholic. What you were probably really taught is that Faith alone isn’t enough. You need to demonstrate that Faith with Works of Love.

You were taught correctly in this matter and you retained it. That’s good.

What I and others were taught is that our faith and good deeds were still not cutting it. God is waiting for you to make your next sin.

What I can tell you is that the Church doesn’t create guilt.

Thank God that Traditional Roman Catholicism has been put to death.

the Church tells you what you need to do to get to heaven. If you were feeling guilt and shame, that was your conscience speaking to you and asking you to reform your life so that you could be saved.

I was a child. I wasn’t doing anything wrong.

That is a mercy, not a hindrance and it comes from the Holy Spirit inside you. And it is obvious that your conscience is still bugging you about this because your anger is palpable.

What makes me angry is someone telling me what I was taught or telling me I misunderstood what I was taught.

You see, even though the Protestants have told you that your sins are meaningless and that they don’t effect your salvation,

Protestants did not tell me that. No one ever told me that.

deep down you know that this is not true. You can’t escape it. God will not give up on you and will continue to provide you internal correction until you accept it and reform whatever it is that is bugging you.

It seems like you have a lot of anger toward Protestants.

The Bible wasn’t readily available until after the printing press was invented in the 1450s. The Protestant Reformation began in the early 1500s after books became more available. Without that, the view of sola Scriptura would have been ludicrous because only the churches and the very wealthy had bibles so how could the masses be independent on scripture?

I’m not talking about the middle ages. I’m talking about 20th century America.