How are we saved?

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RonNYC: the bible gives us more confidence in God’s participation in our salvation than traditional Catholic teaching gives us

GW: The bible’s (and the Catholic Church’s) confidence is this: followers of Christ who do what He commands can be assured that they are His and have eternal life (1 John 3:3-19; John 14:21). And his commands include some of the following:

Ongoing public confession of one’s sins (1 John 1:9; James 5:16; John 20:23)
Eucharist (Matt 26:26-28; John 6:53-56; 1 Cor 11:27-31)
Baptism (Mark 16:16; Romans 6:4-5; 1 Peter 3:21)
Almsgiving/deeds of charity (Lk 12:33; Acts 10:4,31; Titus 2:14)
Keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17-21)
Obeying the Church (Hebrews 13:17; Matthew 16:18-19; 1 Tim 3:15; Acts 16:4)

Mere mental belief in Jesus without obedience and deeds is the Devil’s lot (James 2:19).

RonNYC: What I and others were taught is that our faith and good deeds were still not cutting it. God is waiting for you to make your next sin.

GW: The Church teaches that our faith and good deeds of charity cut it (so long as we don’t quit these things). But sinful acts damage us and others and offend God (rightly so), and so as part of good deeds we must confess and make necessary reparations (1 John 1:9), for that is just and holy by all logic, biblical teaching, and common sense. God is a God of righteousness and justice, and Jesus died to take away our sinfulness.

Friend, the only time we are to feel guilt is when we have done something concretely wrong–i.e., committed a wrong immoral act or acts. It is then that the Holy Spirit pricks our conscience and urges us to use our wills to confess what we did, make amends as best we can, and move forward with a clean conscience/slate (“state of grace”) and the intent to stop participating in evil. This is common sense. It is totally reasonable. I know you can see just how reasonable that is.

RonNYC: No Protestant ever told me that [your sins are meaningless and that they don’t effect your salvation]

GW: That was precisely Luther’s heresy. Luther believed that mental belief alone was everything and that the Christian’s acts were all evil no matter whether we were giving to the poor or killing our neighbor. Luther said: “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” (A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon, Letter 99, 1 August 1521)

In contrast to Luther, St. Paul warned against all sins, saying that men who commit unrepented grave sins don’t inherit the kingdom of God (Ephesians 5:3-5; 1 Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:19-21).
 
Why do you not give all of scripture to prove your points? For example in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, you left out verse 11, which is how we are seen by God after being washed with His blood at the new birth.
Peace, Golfjack
 
golfjack said:
I have good news for you. Study 1 John 4:9: It says Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for JHis seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. The whoever is born again Christians. 1 John 4:4-9 is talking about sin and the child of God. PRAISE GOD.
Peace, Golfjack
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Hey Golfjack, 🙂

When Scripture states, “Whoever has been born of God does not sin,” it means that the person does not choose to sin. If he does sin, then he is not born of God.

1 John 5:18 “We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”

The person who is born of God keeps himself away from sin. The wicked one cannot touch a person who is not sinning. But, if a person sins, then he is of the devil.

1 John 3:8 “He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.”

1 John 3:10 “In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.”

2 Timothy 2:25-26 “And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and** that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will**.”

We must continually be on guard in order to escape the snares and traps of the devil if we desire to inherit eternal life.

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

Pax,
SHW
 
golfjack said:
Why do you not give all of scripture to prove your points? For example in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, you left out verse 11, which is how we are seen by God after being washed with His blood at the new birth.
Peace, Golfjack
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1 Cor. 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Scripture is pointing out that the sins that persons had committed before they were baptized (when they were unrighteous) prevented them from inheriting eternal life.

But, these persons are baptized, so if they do not want to lose their justification, then they may not return to those things (sins) that caused them to not inherit eternal life in the first place!

If these saved persons do these things, then they will partake of the same punishments as those who were never saved in the first place. This is explained more clearly in the following Scripture passage:

Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

Romans 2:5-9 “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;”

We must remain in the state of grace until our deaths if we desire to inherit eternal life.

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Pax,
SHW
 
SHW, I don’t know about you, but my God has done it all for me on the cross. I have His righteousness, and not my own. You know what, if one thinks about sin all the time, then one will probably sin in the flesh. I guess you guys are pretty fleshly.
Peace, Golfjack
 
golfjack said:
SHW, I don’t know about you, but my God has done it all for me on the cross. I have His righteousness, and not my own. You know what, if one thinks about sin all the time, then one will probably sin in the flesh. I guess you guys are pretty fleshly.
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  Peace,  Golfjack
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The devil’s best tool is complacency…
 
“I don’t know about you, but my God has done it all for me on the cross. I have His righteousness, and not my own.”

Then why does the bible command *YOU *to get baptized, forsake your sinful thoughts and ways, partake in the eucharist, obey the rulers of the Church, give alms, and do other things that you appear to consider merely optional???
 
golfjack,

You are going beyond what scripture says.

By Christ’s death on the cross, He merited for us the Graces necessary for salvation. That does not mean He automatically gives them to us as you assume. You confuse redemption with salvation, a common mistake.

We now have to participate with God’s saving Graces to merit our salvation as a pure gift from God. God does not need our help, but because He gave us free will, we are allowed to participate in His saving actions. Grace does this for us and Grace is what puts us in the Body of Christ.

mdcpensive1
 
As A Catholic Christian who was a former Assemblies of God minister and outside the Catholic communion for 35 years, one thing that has frustrated me since my return has been the lack of clarity in this issue among both Catholics and Protestants alike. One poster stated that “all” Protestants believed in salvation as totally by faith, which actually is not correct. Assemblies of God is actually closer to Catholic theology in that the belief in that particular denomination, as well as others from the Methodist/Weslyan traditions, is that you start your walk with Christ through a personal committment to Christ but that you must live that faith until the end of your life in order to be saved ultimately.

The Catholic Church teaches exactly the same thing, however wording it somewhat differently. Without going into Catechism references, the Catechism does indeed teach that we cannot “save ourselves.” However, we believe that the VEHICLE God has given to save us is baptism. Does that mean we depend on water to save us? Not at all, we believe it is Jesus Christ USING that water to bring us Himself, and we do so as an act of faith. When that child (assuming they are baptized as an infant) receives this Sacrament, their salvation is still conditional on their own personal committment to Jesus, and willingness to follow Him once reaching the age of accountabilty. Essentially the act of personal faith that child makes, whether at First Holy Communion, first Penance (Reconciliation) or just going to Mass each Sunday and making the profession of faith we make during each and every single Mass (the Nicene Creed, accepted by Catholics and Protestants alike, by the way) and then following through by living for Jesus on a daily basis, then that child will be saved, as long as he or she continues in a state of grace.

The term “state of grace” too bears some explanation. You cannot “lose” your walk in Christ accidentally. The Catholic Church teaches that you must committ mortal sin in order to do so, which involves serious matter, knowing it is such, and willingly (totally not partially) choosing to do so. In short it means a total and willing turning away from God as you understand His Commandments.

Lastly, on that point, we are judged according to our understanding. Caholics do not teach that those who are outside of the communion of our Faith are not saved by that fact alone, but rather by, once again, deliberately rejecting the Church. During my years outside the Church I loved Jesus and attempted to follow Him. I was in a “state of grace” or, as my Protestant counterparts called it, “saved” during that time. However, once I realized that I needed to become Catholic again, it then became urgent that I return to the Church because I finally realized that is where God wanted me to be all along. Had I THEN not returned, I would have jeopardized my walk with God, which then would have jeopardized my own continuing salvation/conversion experience.

While it takes some digging, all of this is taught clearly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We do teach “salvation” from the top, so to speak. And while the Sacraments, baptism to initiate us into the Faith, and especially Reconciliation and the Eucharist to strengthen us, are utterly valuable to help keep us “on track,” they are not what save us, in and of themselves. It is always Jesus and Jesus alone who does so.
 
One additional point regarding water baptism. There are Protestant denominations that believe you must be baptized to be saved, such as for example the Church of Christ. We also as Catholics teach “baptismal regeneration,” however with the added caveat that a person attempting to follow Jesus who has not yet had the opportunity to be baptized will be saved by what our Faith calls either the “baptism of desire” or the “baptism of blood.” For example if you are standing in line waiting your turn to be baptized, and you are doing so out of faith and love for Jesus, but suddenly have a massive heart attack and are called home before you are baptized, you will be accepted into heaven just as quickly as those who have been baptized all of their lives. The same would apply for those who are in that same line and whose church is bombed by terrorists (in that case baptism by blood, or martyrdom).

The issue, once again, is the condition of our hearts, not having water poured on us (or being immersed for that matter, which by the way is ALSO allowable as Catholics, and many Protestants do not realize this either). But if you are not WILLING to be baptized, knowing Jesus and His Disciples all did so, then my question would be, did you actually make a “faith commitment” to Jesus when you prayed that sinner’s prayer? I know many “saved” people who have never been baptized even for years after making their intial profession of faith, and cannot give you a reason at all–they just have not bothered to do so. Are they still believers? That is not for me to judge, but I will just suggest that no one can rest on your laurels, whether you are Catholic or Protestant. You are still called to daily “take up your cross and follow Me” to quote the words of Jesus, and that includes being baptized.

Water does not save us. Jesus does.
 
The Idea that somehow a man’s dereliction is somebody else’s fault when he was a child is denial of his responsibility as a disciple of Christ. Your Religious Education should never stop.You can not preach the Gospel to a 50 year old woman with a the catechism geared for a 10 year old!

As the Holy Spirit reveals the Word of God one has to do the work of living in the Word through prayer, meditation of the Word, contemplation, and acts of charity and sacrifice. It is not easy! :juggle:However God gives us all that we need , gifts to help us .👍 Sacred Scripture, The fellowship of the Body of Christ, The Holy Church, Sacraments and their Grace are some of these gifts.

The road to perdition is wide and the gates of the Kingdom of God are narrow.

**Salvation is not Justification and Justification is not Perfection! **We as the Church Militant have our salvation but most of us have not achieved perfected Holiness. So there is room for improvement :okpeople:and much work to be done!:extrahappy::signofcross:
Peace:blessyou: :getholy: :gopray2:
 
ron77nyc said:
I would like to be perfectly honest and tell you that I never studied the Baltimore Catechism. We had a very thin catechism with a green cover. I don’t know what version it was. I’m just trying to understand why we never read the bible in 20th century America.The Baltimore Catechism hints at an explanation. If you’re saying that your version offered indulgences for reading the bible I believe you, however we didn’t get indulgences for that in our church. We weren’t taught too much about indulgences so that’s not an issue with me. I was taught by very good nuns but they were only teaching what they were taught so I don’t blame them.
How do you reconcile the double message? You don’t have to read the bible but you get indulgences for reading it.
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I guess I don’t see a double message. I see a statement to be wary, because, as the Bible says, the “ignorant and unstable may twist Scripture to their own destruction.” I see a statement to check your understanding against the understanding of the Church. If the Church didn’t want us to read the Bible, there would be no indulgence offered.

BTW, I am so sorry you had such a poor education that didn’t teach you to read the Bible. For some reason, it seems like a lot of people from your generation suffered from poor catechism. 😦 May God have mercy on those souls entrusted to teach! Of course, today, the tides have changed. Giving a child a Bible is a popular first communion and confirmation gift. 🙂

God bless,

❤️ Love is Patient
 
golfjack said:
SHW, I don’t know about you, but my God has done it all for me on the cross. I have His righteousness, and not my own. You know what, if one thinks about sin all the time, then one will probably sin in the flesh. **I guess you guys are pretty fleshly. **
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  Peace,  Golfjack
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Is this your idea of Christian charity? Do you really think insulting us is a good strategy? 😦

Sigh…

❤️ Love is Patient
 
mdcpensive1 said:
golfjack,

You are going beyond what scripture says.

By Christ’s death on the cross, He merited for us the Graces necessary for salvation. That does not mean He automatically gives them to us as you assume. You confuse redemption with salvation, a common mistake.

We now have to participate with God’s saving Graces to merit our salvation as a pure gift from God. God does not need our help, but because He gave us free will, we are allowed to participate in His saving actions. Grace does this for us and Grace is what puts us in the Body of Christ.
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Hi mdcpensive1, 🙂

Yes, Jesus died for all men; He redeemed us, but not all men are saved.

1 Timothy 2:5-7 “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”

Pax,
SHW
 
golfjack said:
SHW, I don’t know about you, but my God has done it all for me on the cross. I have His righteousness, and not my own. You know what, if one thinks about sin all the time, then one will probably sin in the flesh. I guess you guys are pretty fleshly.
Peace, Golfjack
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Hi GJ,

I think I prefer God to judge me. 😃

Scripture states that we are to ever-vigilant against the traps and snares of the devil.

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

Pax,
SHW
 
How do we know we are saved? Romans 8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. 👍
Peace, Golfjack
 
golfjack said:
SHW, I don’t know about you, but my God has done it all for me on the cross. I have His righteousness, and not my own. You know what, if one thinks about sin all the time, then one will probably sin in the flesh. I guess you guys are pretty fleshly.
Code: 
  Peace,  Golfjack
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**Luk 6:37 Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven. **
 
golfjack said:
How do we know we are saved? Romans 8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. 👍
Peace, Golfjack
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This needs to be taken in the correct context. It is the Holy Spirit abiding within our temples/souls Who is the Guarantee of our salvation. He is the witness.

2 Corinthians 1:21 “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.”

But, if we defile our temples with sin, then it is not the Holy Spirit who is abiding in us anymore, but instead it is an evil spirit who tricks the wayward “Christian” into believing that it is the Holy Spirit who is abiding in him. But the Holy Spirit cannot live in a temple defiled by sin, so it is not He who is convincing the sinner that sin does not matter. The spirit dwelling in this person’s soul is instead an evil spirit.

1 John 3:12 “not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.”

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

Romans 2:5-9 “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of** the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil**, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;”

Pax,
SHW
 
SHW, Are you implying I have an evil spirit in me? If so, isn’t this against forum rules?
Peace, Golfjack
 
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