How are we saved?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JJ59
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I joined late in this discussion, Golfjack, but did you happen to read my responses on the Catholic view of salvation? In spite of your objections, and certain semantics, it is very close to the same as yours, minus the “once saved always saved” aspect. If you did not read them yet, I would ask you to scroll up just a bit and read what I shared. I have been an evangelical, and in fact still consider myself to be such on certain levels. Catholics believe in salvation by faith, but we believe it must be a living faith that includes a personal committment to follow, not just have “head knowledge”, about Christ. We also believe that we are secure in that salvation as long as we continue in the faith. Our specifics on how to do that may be different, but we allow room for God to work in those who do not believe, for example, in baptism as God’s main vehicle for the salvation process–we believe, as you do, that it is the finished work of Christ that brings us to heaven.

I would respectfully ask that you read my posts if you have not done so already–we have more in common than you may realize. God bless.
 
SHW, Are you implying I have an evil spirit in me? If so, isn’t this against forum rules?
Code:
      Peace,   Golfjack
Hey golfjack,

What are you implying in your post, I have quoted below, with my emphasis?
SHW, I don’t know about you, but my God has done it all for me on the cross. I have His righteousness, and not my own. You know what, if one thinks about sin all the time, then one will probably sin in the flesh. I guess you guys are pretty fleshly.
Code:
  Peace,  Golfjack
 
SHW, Are you implying I have an evil spirit in me? If so, isn’t this against forum rules?
Peace, Golfjack
No, I am not. I have no idea what the state of your soul is and I do not want to know!! I have enough to do, taking care of my own soul, and keeping it undefiled by sin. 😃

I am merely stating that not all spirits who reside in peoples’ souls are the Holy Spirit and this is supported by Scripture. That is why I said “wayward” Christians. They sin deliberately, but think that the Holy Spirit is still residing in their souls because they “feel” that He is living there, when in fact, He is not.

The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in a soul that has been defiled by sin. This is an impossibility. After mortal sin has been committed, a person is required to confess and repent and make restitution before the Holy Spirit will make His home in this person’s soul again. (Ezekiel 33:12-20)

Pax,
SHW
 
PS. I did not apply anything. As a Minister, I talk to many people and observed that when one is sin conscious, and pays too much attentrion to the flesh, they probably sin more. To me, it is best to renew our minds in Christ, and prerach love and not so much fire and brimstone. We have many hurting people out there and I find that the Church should be place that listens to them and shouldn’t be so condemning, like it was a long time ago in Catholic grade school. Now, there is much more we as God’s people need to do to help a lost world. I have been called by God to minister and take it seriously. One more thing. God ministers to our spirits and not to our soulish area, as the devil can have access to our minds.
Peace, Golfjack
 
Interesting discussion I’d say. I think I’ve found a good answer, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

*"It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will.

Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God’s justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ’s sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.

This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God’s grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified."
*
(from newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm)

Now, if someone would help me add some relevant Scripture references to what is described in there, I would be infinitely grateful. (I’ve already got one-- The last paragraph has James ch. 2 written all over it!)

Thanks everyone, and God Bless.
 
SHW, I don’t know about you, but my God has done it all for me on the cross. I have His righteousness, and not my own. You know what, if one thinks about sin all the time, then one will probably sin in the flesh. I guess you guys are pretty fleshly.
Code:
  Peace,  Golfjack
Well, your last comment certainly appears to have some implications.
PS. I did not apply anything. As a Minister, I talk to many people and observed that when one is sin conscious, and pays too much attentrion to the flesh, they probably sin more. To me, it is best to renew our minds in Christ, and prerach love and not so much fire and brimstone. We have many hurting people out there and I find that the Church should be place that listens to them and shouldn’t be so condemning, like it was a long time ago in Catholic grade school. Now, there is much more we as God’s people need to do to help a lost world. I have been called by God to minister and take it seriously. One more thing. God ministers to our spirits and not to our soulish area, as the devil can have access to our minds.
Code:
    Peace,   Golfjack
Now in response, you say you talk to many people and observed that when one is sin conscious, they probably sin more, which correlates to your previous post about you guessing we are “fleshly”.

Are you trying to minister to us?
 
Hello also, SHW, good to hear from you. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut in this thread.

StephenFrancis, you have very much to say and I have enjoyed reading what you have written. Please keep it up because you have a gift of writing these posts.

golfjack, you are my brother in Christ. Keep me and others here on the forums in your prayers.

One of the books that I started but did not finish is the “Salvation Controversy” by Jimmy Akin. For some reason I was about 75% done with it but it was hard work reading it and trying to contemplate all the info inside the pages. A very holy person told me that maybe it just wasn’t time for me to finish it yet, maybe another time. I know it is a wonderful book and it helps many with the variations in the language of theology we speak from different faith traditions.

I just wanted to say hello again and thank everyone for their expense of valuable time to speak. We only have so much time before we see the Lord.

mdcpensive1
 
Thank you so much for the encouragement. I am fairly new at posting, but God has done wondrous and unexpected things in my life, and it is certainly high time that I share them with others. The idea of a lively discusssion with more than one viewpoint, yet done with love and respect of each, is indeed a great way for us to grow in our Faith.

One thing I learned, both as a cradle Catholic and as an evangelical Protestant, and then finally Catholic again, is how little many of us actually know about each other. We each too can become guilty of spiritual pride of sorts, thinking we have the “corner on the truth.” That said, I definitely believe in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Faith, and I see that Faith best represented within the Roman Catholic communion, but let us never forget that very often our Protestant and Orthodox brothers and sisters, as well as non-Christians, can teach us much also if we allow them to.

This forum is great fun, and very meaningful. Thanks for letting me be part of it!
 
Interesting discussion I’d say. I think I’ve found a good answer, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

*"It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will.

Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God’s justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ’s sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.

This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God’s grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified."
*
(from newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm)

Now, if someone would help me add some relevant Scripture references to what is described in there, I would be infinitely grateful. (I’ve already got one-- The last paragraph has James ch. 2 written all over it!)

Thanks everyone, and God Bless.
Hi JJ59, 🙂

Grace of God:

2 Timothy 1:8-11 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.”

1 Corinthians 1:4-8 “I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 2:8-10 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

Call to Repentance:

Mark 1:14-15 "Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Acts 3:19 “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord”

Acts 26:19-21 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.”

2 Corinthians 7:10 “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.”

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

God desires all men to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:1-7 “Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”

God calls us:

1 Peter 5:10 “But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.”

Galatians 1:6-7 “I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.”

2 Timothy 1:9 “(God) who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,”
 
Trust in God’s mercy:

Psalm 13:5-6 “But I have trusted in Your mercy;
My heart shall rejoice in Your salvation.
6 I will sing to the LORD,
Because He has dealt bountifully with me.”

New Creation in Christ:

Colossians 3:5-11 “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.”

Perseverance until death:

Hebrews 3:6-8 “but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,

In the day of trial in the wilderness,”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

2 Timothy 3:13-15 “But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

If you are looking for a particular teaching in Scripture, let us know and we will try to find it for you. Some things can be deduced from Scripture such as belief in the “Trinity,” but are not expressly stated as such in “specific” words.

Pax,
SHW
 
In Matthew 25 Jesus tells us of the 10 virgins waiting for the bridegroom with the lamps and the parable of the servants given the talents by their master. Both of these stories tell us to work at preparing for the Kingdom Come
Matthew 25:30 tells of the consequences of not being prepared, 30 "And the unprofitable servant, cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus Christ then tells of the final judgment Matthew 25:31-46 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: 36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink? 38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee? 40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. 41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Brothers and Sisters We Will Be Judged For What We Do!, Not What We Say!
:blessyou:
 
BTW, I am so sorry you had such a poor education that didn’t teach you to read the Bible. For some reason, it seems like a lot of people from your generation suffered from poor catechism.
That’s OK because God causes all things to work together for good. I would never have known what I know now if I was content with following the crowd. When discouragement comes the Holy Spirit also comes to guide those whom God has chosen if we look to Him. If we look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith He will lift us above any human failure.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
That’s OK because God causes all things to work together for good. I would never have known what I know now if I was content with following the crowd. When discouragement comes the Holy Spirit also comes to guide those whom God has chosen if we look to Him. If we look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith He will lift us above any human failure.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes, he will save us if we continue to reach out to him… However, if we turn our back on him and choose our own paths, they he will condemn us…
 
Yes, he will save us if we continue to reach out to him… However, if we turn our back on him and choose our own paths, they he will condemn us…
He will if we are persistent until the end but He will keep reaching out to us until He has decided not to do do. The grace of God is stubborn. Look at what Jeusalem did in Ezekiel 16 and how God promised to save them for His own sake. This does not mean we are free to disobey. He will not let us rest in our rebellion. That is a sign that he hasn’t given up.
 
He will if we are persistent until the end but He will keep reaching out to us until He has decided not to do do. The grace of God is stubborn. Look at what Jeusalem did in Ezekiel 16 and how God promised to save them for His own sake. This does not mean we are free to disobey. He will not let us rest in our rebellion. That is a sign that he hasn’t given up.
Agreed 100%
 
Question: is Christ’s death on the cross only applicable to us individual believers if we are baptized? Yes or no?
 
Re “i) I’ve heard it been said “Grace alone”. If so, how do we receive that grace?”:

In a sense, the faith versus works and grace versus works distinctions are “false dichotomies.” Grace generates works and faith. If somebody is engaging in works oriented toward salvation – “good works” – then grace is doing it, and grace must be accepted, so that he or she has within himself or herself the “yes” to grace which amounts to rudimentary “faith,” at least. How many people you know will erect an altar to “works not faith, not grace” in their basements, and with awestruck humility say, before that altar, “G-g-g-g-g-g-god of w-w-w-w-works, p-p-p-p-please help m-m-m-m-m-me to eng-g-g-gage in g-g-g-g-good works w-w-w-w-without that bad f-f-f-f-faith and g-g-g-g-g-g-grace stuff.”?

So, salvation is by grace, but not “alone,” to the extent that grace IS a “faith machine” and grace IS a “works machine.” If you could actually HEAR grace coming, and when you listened to it carefully you could HEAR God, within the grace, whispering, “Have faith. Do works. Have faith. Do works,” would you say, "Salvation by grace “alone”?

“Ineffable” means you can’t fully get your mental arms around an idea. Your mind can’t finish understanding it. God is ineffable. Grace is a piece of ineffable God. Grace is therefore ineffable. God’s ineffable grace purchased from God’s Own perfect justice by the suffering and death of God the Son on the cross is indeed the “saving machine.” But that grace generates a “faith flower” which is empty unless it also generates a “works willingness and works flower.”

The precise details of how we receive ineffable grace must itself remain ineffable. We can understand the process somewhat. Grace can’t ultimately be determinative in all respects – it can’t ultimately FORCE us to do what God wants, because then we are unlovable, unloving puppets and punishment of the damned is unjust. (Which raises the “election” issue.) Therefore, grace somehow raises the freedom of our will to equipoise, in a way that is ineffably tied-into our “yes” to grace’s arrival. Inside of that kind of mystical ideation is the probably unreachable answer to your question.
Grace means “Favor undesearved” Why is this subject complicated to People? We already Know Jesus provided the Sacrifice for Redemption. Now how do we recieve that redemption is always the argument. First of all it is a Gift and we all know that. Paul clearly says. So the Sacrifice is done and God is offering the World this GRACE. Hello!!! Jesus is the Grace. So how do we recieve it? Some say through Baptism others say through Belief. In Baptism we are being Baptised into Christ, so it is still Christ alone who saves. Baptism is an act saying yes Lord, I recieve the already done sacrifice of Jesus. Surley you don’t think the water it self saves you? Many think that and I have heard it preached that way. So it is simple Jesus paid the price of sin that was against man, and through the act of Baptism, because this shows God and the world that we truly believe in Jesus. Look God on one side and man on the other side. They were joined back together through Jesus. That is why He is our one Mediator. I’m not talking about prayer mediation, we have many mediators in prayer, but only one Mediator that brings man to God Christ Jesus. God Bless and I hope your having an awesome week in Jesus.
 
StephenFrancis explained that in posts 161 & 162. It’s worth reading.
Ah, sorry, i didn’t checked it out.

Okay next question: Christ died at the cross to forgive my sins. Does that mean my sins in the future are already forgiven?

If my question was already answered, just inform me. I’m a Catholic seeking for answers.
 
Ah, sorry, i didn’t checked it out.

Okay next question: Christ died at the cross to forgive my sins. Does that mean my sins in the future are already forgiven?

If my question was already answered, just inform me. I’m a Catholic seeking for answers.
The Catholic view on this is that future sins are not forgiven. Past sins are forgiven when we are baptized and each time we go to confession. To be saved you need to stay in the state of grace by doing the will of God. If you sin, you can be redeemed through confession, contrition, repentence and penance in the sacrament of reconciliation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top