How are we saved?

[paul_c]

Golfjack, Ed, Ralphy,
You see a common thread now from the Catholics in response to your points: What are your qualifications that would make us believe your interpretations of the Bible? You see, you really have none.

We’re trying to help you see the truth. But that’s really all we can do. Its up to you to absorb it. I know it is hard to abandon what you believe so dearly, particularly with so much at stake, but the truth will really set you free.

Why not approach this a little differently so you get more out of it. Instead of attacking the Catholic Church, try identifying where you differ from our views (it will be less than you think if you are truly Christians) and then understanding why the Catholic Church believes what it does. I tried to do that for you about 100 posts ago (just estimating) . It will be enlightening to you if you approach it wiht a truly open mind. We can help you understand the Church’s positions and why it takes them if you let us…

 

[EdOsiecki]

Hey forum contributors, allow me to restate how and on what basis that I got saved as follows:It’s so simple to get saved, that’s why it’s so hard for some to understand. I got saved on May 4, 1974, I called out to God to save me as per Rom.10:13 “Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved”. also Rev 3:20. By doing so, God came into my life, I was “born again” spiritually, as required per John 3:5. and the angels rejoiced in heaven over my salvation Lk 15:10. Then two things took place, (1) I then read the Bible in order to grow spiritually which taught me God’s Biblical ways. (2) For months, God took me as far back into my life as I could remember. Every time I recalled a sin, right there on the spot, I confessed it to God. I was being sanctified. At times, I was required to make an apology or a restitution. Sometime later, I was led by the spirit to go to a Non-denominational prayer meeting where spirit filled people laid hands and prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit as per Acts 8:17. Later, I was water re-baptized per Mat 3:11 as John states,” I baptize you with water for REPENTANCE “. (not for washing any of my sins as I was once taught). Sins can only be atoned for by the shedding of BLOOD Heb.9:22) (C) I believed that salvation is by God’s grace and not by any of my works so that I could not boast, it’s a free gift from God Eph.2:8-9. (D) I was baptized to shown my out-ward sign of repentance per Mat,3:11.(E) I received the Holy Spirit per Acts 8:17. I Now do good works (not for salvation) but to show my repentance as per Mat.3:7-8 And by doing so, it now counts for my rewards in heaven Mat.16:27 (F) I now know that I’m saved because there’s been a great change in my life per 2 Cor 15:17. (G) Most importantly I now know for certain, by following God’s above plan for salvation, that I’m assured of going to heaven per 1 John 5:13. " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life”. We are saved by faith in Jesus alone. The only replies I got when I posted this testimony, was How can a baby call on the Lord. I responded, Jesus said the Kingdom of God belongs to the children. Then somone asked, If a baby is saved per Jesus’ statement, do they loose their salvation when they become of age? My question to such silly responses is, “Is that the best that you can come up with”? Randy, PaulC, ProdicalSon1 am I saved?

 

[jean8]

Hi everyone.

I was wondering: How are we saved?

I mean, I consider the Catholic Church to be authoritative, but I can’t seem to get a straight answer when it comes to salvation. (In contrast, Protestants have a straight answer, “Believe in Jesus”.) I even checked the CCC and it made zero sense. Can someone please give me a short, simple answer to the question? Specifically:

i) I’ve heard it been said “Grace alone”. If so, how do we receive that grace?

ii) Where is this in the Bible?

iii) What of the verses like “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31) and “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)? How do they fit into the Church’s teaching?

Thanks!!!

(Oh, and by the way, I’m not trying to be pesky, I’m honestly looking for answers. Thanks!)

jj,
The first passage that came to mind for me was the one you wrote. Rom.10:9.
Other passages are Acts 4:12, Eph.2:8-9, Jn.3:16, Rom.5:1.
We certainly cannot save ourself. Jesus said from the cross, “It is finished.”

God bless, Good post.

jean

 

[jean8]

I have to say that I have never seen Protestantism so poorly represented as it has been on this thread. :sad_yes:

Its not even tempting to engage in dialogue such irrelevant nonsense. :nope:

Why not get back to the topic of salvation or end the thread?

Phil,
I’m sorry to hear you feel this way.

May I give you a passage from our Lord, Jesus Christ, he said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39. And the second is like it; “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
This is the Greatest Commandment. found in Mt.22:34-39

God bless you,
jean

 

[jean8]

PS, I belong to a non-denominational church, which has no rules and regulations like yours. Most of us are also Spirit-filled and believe in the gifts of the Spirit. To me, rules, and regulations block the flow of the Holy Spirit. This has happened throughout church history. Just look at your church, the Episcopal church, Presbyterian church, and various reformed church. The Church should be a Bible based church. The church really started when Jesus breathed a new recreated spirit into the apostles.

  Peace,   Golfjack

golfjack,
God does not show favortism.
He loves all sinners.
The Bible teaches, no one can say "Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."1Cor.12:3
“For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.”

PS. No speaking in tongues required.

God bless,
Jean

 

[jean8]

Golfjack, Ed, Ralphy,
You see a common thread now from the Catholics in response to your points: What are your qualifications that would make us believe your interpretations of the Bible? You see, you really have none.

We’re trying to help you see the truth. But that’s really all we can do. Its up to you to absorb it. I know it is hard to abandon what you believe so dearly, particularly with so much at stake, but the truth will really set you free.

Why not approach this a little differently so you get more out of it. Instead of attacking the Catholic Church, try identifying where you differ from our views (it will be less than you think if you are truly Christians) and then understanding why the Catholic Church believes what it does. I tried to do that for you about 100 posts ago (just estimating) . It will be enlightening to you if you approach it wiht a truly open mind. We can help you understand the Church’s positions and why it takes them if you let us…

paul,
I agree. Great response.

God bless you,
jean

 

[EdOsiecki]

Golfjack, Ed, Ralphy,
You see a common thread now from the Catholics in response to your points: What are your qualifications that would make us believe your interpretations of the Bible? You see, you really have none.

We’re trying to help you see the truth. But that’s really all we can do. Its up to you to absorb it. I know it is hard to abandon what you believe so dearly, particularly with so much at stake, but the truth will really set you free.

Why not approach this a little differently so you get more out of it. Instead of attacking the Catholic Church, try identifying where you differ from our views (it will be less than you think if you are truly Christians) and then understanding why the Catholic Church believes what it does. I tried to do that for you about 100 posts ago (just estimating) . It will be enlightening to you if you approach it wiht a truly open mind. We can help you understand the Church’s positions and why it takes them if you let us…

PaulC, This is ED, If you insist, allow me to quote our church Father, Irenaeus, a pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John, he understood the number “666” per Rev.13:18 Thusly:
The Greek word “Lateinos” L,30: A,1: T,300: E,5: I.10: N.50: O,70: S,200. These total 666. “Lateinos” means “Latin Kingdom” Papal Rome made Latin its official language. And it still is. Rome’s canons, missals, prayers,decrees, bulls, blessings, cursings, are all in LATIN. He believed called a “MAN” meaning a set of men or an Institution headed by a man or a set of men. Now no ofense I’m only quoting a church Father. God Bless ED

 

[jean8]

According to rhema.org, it appears there’s only a one year program to graduate from, but it states first year program, then I saw a 3rd year program mentioned. How much training did your pastor receive?

Their website doesn’t give alot of information. It doesn’t mention any doctrines, tenets or really anything specific about what they teach.

It doesn’t even give the founder’s qualifications other than he died 3 times in 10 minutes and saw hell each time that led to his conversion and Christ appeared to him 8 times.

It tells us the founder, born in 1917, started a magazine in 1968 and started the training center in 1974. I can’t find anything that indicates their Church is the Apostolic Church. Nowhere does it say it was the original Church.

Their website also doesn’t mention how many members the Church has. I just wondered, because Catholics make up over 50 percent of the world’s Christians. That leaves thousands of denominations and non-denominations to make up the rest.

I think this is a Pentecostal Church. Some deny the Trinity. Most believe a person must speak in tongues.
1Cor.12:30 reads, not all receive this gift. We all receive different gifts from the Holy Spirit. We are already saved when the Lord blesses us with gifts of the Spirit.

God bless,
jean

 

[SteveGC]

PaulC, This is ED, If you insist, allow me to quote our church Father, Irenaeus, a pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John, he understood the number “666” per Rev.13:18 Thusly:
The Greek word “Lateinos” L,30: A,1: T,300: E,5: I.10: N.50: O,70: S,200. These total 666. “Lateinos” means “Latin Kingdom” Papal Rome made Latin its official language. And it still is. Rome’s canons, missals, prayers,decrees, bulls, blessings, cursings, are all in LATIN. Now no ofense I’m only quoting a church Father. God Bless ED

Ed, just when I think you can amaze me no more, you spew out yet another fallacy from your handbook of anti-Catholicism. What is this “If you insist” garbage? You think paul c “insisted” you rattle off some fabricated nonsense? No…what you did was exactly the opposite of what he tried to ask of you…namely, to STOP with the attack, and open your mind up to the truth of the faith. I’m slowly losing my last ounce of respect for you, sir. You are truly blinded by error. One day you will see this. Look me up that day, and we’ll have a big laugh over all the nonsense you used to talk about.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Ed, just when I think you can amaze me no more, you spew out yet another fallacy from your handbook of anti-Catholicism. What is this “If you insist” garbage? You think paul c “insisted” you rattle off some fabricated nonsense? No…what you did was exactly the opposite of what he tried to ask of you…namely, to STOP with the attack, and open your mind up to the truth of the faith. I’m slowly losing my last ounce of respect for you, sir. You are truly blinded by error. One day you will see this. Look me up that day, and we’ll have a big laugh over all the nonsense you used to talk about.

Steve GC, I apologize if I hit a bad nerve but ever since I came aboard this forum, I was laughed at, I believe by you, when I gave my interpretation of my understanding of Jn 3:5, Then someone made fun of me because I believe in Sola Scripture they called the Bible a “do It yourself book”, later someone joined forces by trying to intimidate me by saying I preach a “doityourself” phylosophy, but you seemed to get bent all out of shape when I quote a church Father which attacks the Roman Catholic church. That’s not an anti-Catholic book it’s a church history book. I gave my personal testimony when I first came aboard on post #214. only to be ridiculed by silly responses, it’s up there again on #710 respond to it, tell me where I’m wrong. My Bible reads in Mat 3:11 John baptizes in water for repentance, but Randy claims that water baptism washes away sins. I know what repentance means, we both can’t be right. If you want to debate, let’s do it honestly. Not by being arrogant claiming your the only true church. This is my first experience with this Forum, I was wondering when will we ever get back to the thread “How are we saved” That’s why I re-posted my testimony on #710. I was a Catholic for many years, I never found out then and I’m not finding out here either. PaulC, ProdicalSon1, Randy, you or anyone among you, tell me precisely how to get saved if my testimony is wrong. as golfjack always says “peace” ED

 

[Canto]

PaulC, This is ED, If you insist, allow me to quote our church Father, Irenaeus, a pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John, he understood the number “666” per Rev.13:18 Thusly:
The Greek word “Lateinos” L,30: A,1: T,300: E,5: I.10: N.50: O,70: S,200. These total 666. “Lateinos” means “Latin Kingdom” Papal Rome made Latin its official language. And it still is. Rome’s canons, missals, prayers,decrees, bulls, blessings, cursings, are all in LATIN. He believed called a “MAN” meaning a set of men or an Institution headed by a man or a set of men. Now no ofense I’m only quoting a church Father. God Bless ED

You seem to be confusing the Church with a city (Rome)

The Latins who bear rule, which St. Irenaeus refers to, is the Roman Empire not the Catholic (universal) Church, the earthly head of whom just so happens to reside in Rome and is the Bishop of that city.

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 30)

1. It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (ΕΥΑΝΘΑΣ) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (ΛΑΤΕΙΝΟΣ) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence]. Teitan too, (ΤΕΙΤΑΝ, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels ε and ι, among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation…

In the same writing St. Irenaeus says…

Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 3)

1. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very **ancient, and universally known Church **founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which **comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church [Rome], on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

St. Irenaeus died around AD 200. He was a disciple of St. Polycarp who was a disciple of St. John the Evangelist, as we learn in one of his letters: “I can describe the very place in which the Blessed Polycarp used to sit when he discoursed … his personal appearance … and how he would describe his intercourse with John and with the rest who had seen the Lord, and how he would relate their words”**

 

[Randy_Carson]

The above quote my friend, ( that I follow the word of God and I am directed by the Holy Spirit), is all I can offer you. If you can find a better more suitable way to live then you let me know. I serve the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, that is the best it gets. He is my Savior, my Lord and my friend. PTL Ralph

Ralphy-

I’m sure that serving Jesus is your deepest desire…good for you. The problem, as I see it, is that you serve Him on your terms - not His.

Jesus did not start your Bible church…He built the Catholic Church, beginning with the Apostles, and He left Peter in charge after His ascension.

He has not abandoned His Bride in 2,000 years and He never will.

If you are truly interested in pursuing the Truth, wherever it leads you, then you must consider that being Catholic is part of Jesus’ plan and that the words in my signature deserve deep consideration.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I do not see infants being baptised in the bible,do you? Ralph

First, let me state that you know you cannot quote a single verse of scripture which FORBIDS the baptism of infants.

Second, you know that in the beginning, Christianity was MOSTLY a religion of adult converts since it took time for these new Christians to have children that they wanted to bring into the faith.

Third, you know, or should know, that the earliest evidence suggests that the Church did not dispute whether to baptize infants but when since some members wanted to baptize immediately while others preferred to wait until the eighth day as was the custom for circumcision.

Finally, I DO see infants being baptized in the Bible as the following verses suggest:

INFANT BAPTISM PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE

Old Covenant

Genesis 17:9-14
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Leviticus 12:3
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

These texts show the circumcision of eight-day-old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Connection to New Covenant

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the new “circumcision of Christ” for all people of the New Covenant.

Do Infants Need Baptism?

Job 14:1-4
1 "Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. 3 Do you fix your eye on such a one? Will you bring him before you for judgment? 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!

Psalm 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the need for baptism from the moment of conception.

Jesus Extols Child-like Faith

Matthew 18:2-5
2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Jesus Receives Little Children and Infants

Matt 19:13-15
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Luke 18:15-17
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

(cont.)

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Hey forum contributors, allow me to restate how and on what basis that I got saved as follows:It’s so simple to get saved, that’s why it’s so hard for some to understand. I got saved on May 4, 1974, I called out to God to save me as per Rom.10:13 “Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved”. also Rev 3:20. By doing so, God came into my life, I was “born again” spiritually, as required per John 3:5. and the angels rejoiced in heaven over my salvation Lk 15:10. Then two things took place, (1) I then read the Bible in order to grow spiritually which taught me God’s Biblical ways. (2) For months, God took me as far back into my life as I could remember. Every time I recalled a sin, right there on the spot, I confessed it to God. I was being sanctified. At times, I was required to make an apology or a restitution. Sometime later, I was led by the spirit to go to a Non-denominational prayer meeting where spirit filled people laid hands and prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit as per Acts 8:17. Later, I was water re-baptized per Mat 3:11 as John states,” I baptize you with water for REPENTANCE “. (not for washing any of my sins as I was once taught). Sins can only be atoned for by the shedding of BLOOD Heb.9:22) (C) I believed that salvation is by God’s grace and not by any of my works so that I could not boast, it’s a free gift from God Eph.2:8-9. (D) I was baptized to shown my out-ward sign of repentance per Mat,3:11.(E) I received the Holy Spirit per Acts 8:17. I Now do good works (not for salvation) but to show my repentance as per Mat.3:7-8 And by doing so, it now counts for my rewards in heaven Mat.16:27 (F) I now know that I’m saved because there’s been a great change in my life per 2 Cor 15:17. (G) Most importantly I now know for certain, by following God’s above plan for salvation, that I’m assured of going to heaven per 1 John 5:13. " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life”. We are saved by faith in Jesus alone. The only replies I got when I posted this testimony, was How can a baby call on the Lord. I responded, Jesus said the Kingdom of God belongs to the children. Then somone asked, If a baby is saved per Jesus’ statement, do they loose their salvation when they become of age? My question to such silly responses is, “Is that the best that you can come up with”? Randy, PaulC, ProdicalSon1 am I saved?

You do what Catholics do, by reading into what is not there, on babies born in sin and on the papacy. Romans 10:13 is not a prescription of how to get saved from your sins. Paul is saying salvation is for all, both Jew and Gentile. If you were to ask Paul how to be free (saved) from sin, he would tell you what he did in Acts 22:16 that fits what he wrote in Romans 6:2-17. One is freed from sin by being buried with Christ in baptism and being raised with Christ **by faith **in the power of God (Col.2:12).

Romans 6:3 “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that **our old self was crucified with him **so that the body of sin might be done away with,that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. …17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Church Begins to Preach Baptism

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Peter did not say, “Every one of you adults”; he said, “Every one of you” without qualification and added “the promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children”. Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).

Acts 10:47-48
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius which probably included infants and young children. There is not one word in this passage (or any other in scripture) about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15
13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home.

Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children. Further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

 

[Randy_Carson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphy forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I do not see infants being baptised in the bible,do you? Ralph

First, let me state that you know you cannot quote a single verse of scripture which FORBIDS the baptism of infants.

Second, you know that in the beginning, Christianity was MOSTLY a religion of adult converts since it took time for these new Christians to have children that they wanted to bring into the faith.

Third, you know, or should know, that the earliest evidence suggests that the Church did not dispute whether to baptize infants but when since some members wanted to baptize immediately while others preferred to wait until the eighth day as was the custom for circumcision.

Finally, I DO see infants being baptized in the Bible as the following verses suggest:

INFANT BAPTISM PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE

Old Covenant

Genesis 17:9-14
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Leviticus 12:3
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

These texts show the circumcision of eight-day-old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Connection to New Covenant

Col 2:11-12
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the new “circumcision of Christ” for all people of the New Covenant.

Do Infants Need Baptism?

Job 14:1-4
1 "Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. 3 Do you fix your eye on such a one? Will you bring him before you for judgment? 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!

Psalm 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the need for baptism from the moment of conception.

Jesus Extols Child-like Faith

Matthew 18:2-5
2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Jesus Receives Little Children and Infants

Matt 19:13-15
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Luke 18:15-17
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Church Begins to Preach Baptism

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Peter did not say, “Every one of you adults”; he said, “Every one of you” without qualification and added “the promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children”. Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).

Acts 10:47-48
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius which probably included infants and young children. There is not one word in this passage (or any other in scripture) about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15
13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home.

Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children. Further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

 

[SteveGC]

Steve GC, I apologize if I hit a bad nerve but ever since I came aboard this forum, I was laughed at, I believe by you, when I gave my interpretation of my understanding of Jn 3:5,

I called your exegesis of John 3 laughable. Not you. Perhaps a poor choice of words, but the bottom line is that it is in grave error, and yes, it prompted a chuckle out of me.
Ed:

Then someone made fun of me because I believe in Sola Scripture they called the Bible a “do It yourself book”, later someone joined forces by trying to intimidate me by saying I preach a “doityourself” phylosophy,

And what precisely are YOU doing, Ed? You’re criticizing The Church just as much as we are criticizing your beliefs. And do you see us claiming that you’re “making fun” of us? Welcome to Debating 101. Class is now in session. Not everyone is going to agree with you, Ed. You come on a Catholic website, with an obvious tactic of promoting an anti-Catholic agenda. And when devout Catholics put up a defense and correct your errors, this is “making fun” of you? I beg to differ, Ed. If anyone is “making fun”, it’s you and your “Can I get an AMEN” cohorts. Well, welcome to the big leagues, Ed. We’re grown up, adult Catholics, and we know Church teaching. Stick around awhile and maybe you’ll learn something.
Ed:

but you seemed to get bent all out of shape when I quote a church Father which attacks the Roman Catholic church. That’s not an anti-Catholic book it’s a church history book.

I don’t get bent out of shape, Ed. I’m not refuting that Irenaeus speculated about 666. I’m refuting that he connected it in any way to the Catholic Church. That part is from your anti-Catholic grab-bag. Show me some proof that he thought this was The Church. While you’re at it, since you are inclined to hold Irenaeus in a high regard (I do too), confirm for me that you ALSO believe some of his other quotes:

*“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]). *

*“And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan” [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” [John 3:5]… (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]) *
Ed:

I gave my personal testimony when I first came aboard on post #214. only to be ridiculed by silly responses,

Ridiculed? Really? Strong words, Ed. Are you not ridiculing The Catholic Church?..the Church whose members you are addressing on this post? How’s the view from your glass house, Ed?
Ed:

respond to it, tell me where I’m wrong.

It’s not that you’re entirely wrong, Ed. It’s that you’re only partly right.
Ed:

My Bible reads in Mat 3:11 John baptizes in water for repentance, but Randy claims that water baptism washes away sins. I know what repentance means, we both can’t be right.

No, you can’t both be right. Scripture tells us to take disputes like this to The Church, and The Church will determine the truthful side. How do we do this Ed?
Ed:

If you want to debate, let’s do it honestly. Not by being arrogant claiming your the only true church.

Like the arrogance you are portraying by claiming that YOU are right, and WE are wrong? How ironic that you admonish US to debate honestly.
Ed:

This is my first experience with this Forum, I was wondering when will we ever get back to the thread “How are we saved”

yes, by all means…let’s get back to it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I did not say I deny the laying of hands. You are trying to imply I dont believe in the laying of hands by taking what I said about Paul and apply it some where else.

My apologies if I have misunderstood you.

My PRIMARY reason for addressing your post was to make sure that everyone understands that Catholics do not teach that Apostolic Succession is at work in baptism or what-have-you.

The laying on of hands for ordination to the episcopacy is VERY different from a Bishop baptizing or confirming. Different sacraments - different intent - but the same physical methodology.

 

[Randy_Carson]

PS, You can go ahead and make fun at my local church, but I am where God wants me to be. I am also obedient to my calling as an Evangelist.

Peace, Golfjack

Golfjack-

My post to Ralphy bears repeating to you, too.

I’m sure that serving Jesus is your deepest desire…good for you. The problem, as I see it, is that you serve Him on your terms - not His.

Jesus did not start your non-denominational church…He built the Catholic Church, beginning with the Apostles, and He left Peter in charge after His ascension.

Scripture does not say, “You are Peter, and upon your faith confession I will build what I must call my loosely-affiliated network of independent faith fellowships.” NO! He said he would build His Church and that Church, the Catholic Church still exists.

Jesus has not abandoned His Bride in 2,000 years (despite our unfaithfulness and unworthiness), and He never will because HE is faithful.

The more you study the history of the earliest Church and the writings of the Early Church Fathers (Clement, Igatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr and many, many more), the more you will come to realize that the early Christians were not like you and your Pentecostal friends - they were thoroughly Catholic! And the teachings of those believers closest to Jesus are still taught today in the Catholic Church DESPITE being denied by people CLAIMING to be Bible Christians. As John Henry Newman said more than 100 years ago, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.”

If you are truly interested in pursuing the Truth, wherever it leads you and regardless of the cost, then you must consider that being Catholic is part of Jesus’ plan and that the words in my signature deserve deep consideration.