How are we saved?

[Prodigal_Son1]

So in the case of procrastination would not being baptise at the time of death be considered a mortal sin.

peace and blessings

There is only one judge that can answer that question for you, for He is the only one that can see in your heart.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Paul, may I suggest you read this statement by Peter again. He say’s “repent” and be baptised. Notice “repent” comes first, this is very significant as baptism (water) can not take away sin, only the blood of Christ. Ralph

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Paul wrote this years later after much time for reflecting on the means to salvation.

What did he mean when he said, “Wash your sins away”?

 

[SteveGC]

SteveGC What you are saying that in order for me to be painted with the BLOOD of Christ, I must be sprinkled or submerged in water to receive the paint of Christ’s BLOOD. What I’ve been trying to tell you is NO! The thief on the cross received Jesus’ paint (BLOOD), as you call it, simply by believing (no water APPLICATION) Also Cornelius and his group received the paint (BLOOD) simply by believing.(no water APPLICATION) When we are baptized into Christ’s body, it’s the symbolic baptism as the result of believing the gospel (not water baptism) We don’t need the water baptism to be saved but we DO need the BLOOD. Water baptism is necessary only to show repentance. Let me illustrate what you are saying “Water baptism is the brush” = How can repentance (baptism) get the paint onto the house? Your theology supports infant baptism that’s why you try to combine the BLOOD whit water. What amazes me, I’ve been a Roman Catholic for years, attended Catholic grade school, was an altar boy etc. etc. We knew that Jesus died for our sins.(whatever that meant) and water baptism was necessary because if we died without it, hell would be our destination. We were never taught anything about the BLOOD. I never heard about the BLOOD until I got saved, which is the most important part. I hope you understand what I’m trying to convey to you.

Just because Scripture is not explicit on the baptism of these people does not mean that they were not baptized, or atleast that they had a genuine desire to be. And Scripture is quite clear on the fact that water baptism is tied to the atonement of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. You are so desperate to be an Either/Or theologian, that you miss the beauty of Both/And. You even force the Either/Or onto Catholics, claiming that since we claim baptism is required, that we believe it’s the ONLY thing that washes away sins. Your stubbornness blinds you to our efforts to reveal to you that we NEVER have said that it’s the water that’s doing the saving, and forgiving. THAT part is all Christ.

You also think that because we believe in water baptism, that we don’t believe that repentance has anything to do with it. Wrong again.

Here’s another interesting thing. You say it’s ONLY the Blood of Christ. But even YOU don’t really believe that. Because if that were true, then everyone in the world would have their sins forgiven. But you know, as we do, that that is not true. You add repentance to the forgiveness of sins…so clearly it’s not JUST the Blood of Christ that forgives our sins…we have our part to do, correct?

Well, all we’re saying is that to have our sins forgiven, it’s not any ONE thing. Of course, the reality that sins CAN be forgiven, that it is now open for all of us to have our sins forgiven, is due to ONE thing…Christ’s atonement (blood of Christ). BUT, to have forgiveness realized in each of our lives, more is required. You say it’s just repentance, we say baptism and repentance. To be clear, we also say lifelong repentance, because sin is something that easily can separate us from God throughout our lives.

In short, your Catholic upbringing was tragically abbreviated and fragmented, I’m sure partly because of poor catechesis from those charged with teaching you. Somewhere along the line, you missed the relationship between the SOURCE of our salvation, and the EFFECT of our salvation. Two distinct, but inseparable concepts that collectively enlighten one to the fullness of salvation teaching.

 

[paul_c]

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.

Paul, may I suggest you read this statement by Peter again. He say’s “repent” and be baptised. Notice “repent” comes first, this is very significant as baptism (water) can not take away sin, only the blood of Christ. Ralph

So what if he says repent first? No one has a problem with that. He still says to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. That means it takes away sin. Simple English, unvarnished by any biases.

 

[paul_c]

PaulC, This is Ed, I’ve asked, and asked, and asked for any Catholic on this thread to show me precisely how to get saved. No one has responded to my plea thus far. Can you do it for me by showing me precisely the steps by steps required to be certain that, If I stay in the state of grace, I’ll be certain of going to heaven?

As mentioned, I already did this. Apparently you missed it . Here is post 670 again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdOsiecki
PaulC, Let’s say I’m an atheist, and I came up to you and very sincerely asked you how I could get to heaven, and after you had explained the Roman Catholics method, I would know precicely without any question that I would go to heaven. Could you do that for me now?

Sure.

First you acknowledge your faith in Jesus Christ and get Baptized. Then you lead a life of holiness, Doing god’s will by loving God above all things and loving others as yourself. If you fail to do this and commit a mortal sin, then you must desire to be reconciled to God and go through the sacrament of reconciliation. This requires a heartfelt confession to a priest, true repentence and penance in reparation of the sin…Doing this will put you back in the state of Grace. If you are in the state of Grace at death, you will go to Heaven.

 

[tukfryer]

So what if he says repent first? No one has a problem with that. He still says to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. That means it takes away sin. Simple English, unvarnished by any biases.

If you read this from top to bottom you will see that people in Samaria heard the word from Philip and were also baptized but did not receive the Spirit. The case in point is Simon also heard and was baptized but did not receive the Spirit, but neither did the Samaritans.

4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. 5 Then Philip went down to the[a] city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.
The Sorcerer’s Profession of Faith

9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
The Sorcerer’s Sin

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

This has been pointed out before but I’ll post it for those that dont check to see what is taught to be true. Peter right after he had the vision about the the unclean ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ …Notice that Peter only has to speak no water no hands. Water baptism was technically for the Jews. The time of the Jews was now officially over. To me this is the end of the 70th week just as Gabriel told Danial. You have to understand the two baptisms to see the whole picture. You just cant see the word baptism and say it involves water every time. ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’] This page is a very good short read that places it all in perspective.
isaiah58.com/questions/q_oftheweek71.html

11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

 

[EdOsiecki]

Sure.

First you acknowledge your faith in Jesus Christ and get Baptized. Then you lead a life of holiness, Doing god’s will by loving God above all things and loving others as yourself. If you fail to do this and commit a mortal sin, then you must desire to be reconciled to God and go through the sacrament of reconciliation. This requires a heartfelt confession to a priest, true repentence and penance in reparation of the sin…Doing this will put you back in the state of Grace. If you are in the state of Grace at death, you will go to Heaven.

Paul, Ed is asking how does a Catholic get saved? Above, what do you mean by acknowledging faith in Jesus? When you get baptized what does that do? What’s a mortal sin? How would I know that I commtted a mortal sin? Missing mass on Sunday/Saturday for a Catholic is a mortal sin but it’s not for a Protestant, Aren’t we supposed to confess our sins to God and ask Him for forgiveness? Do penance in reperation ? I take that to mean what the priests tells you to do after confessing? Doesn’t that then become works and nullifies grace? What about other Sacraments are they necessary? Would you please answer each one of my questions by short simple statemets or just a few Scriptures verses . Thanks ED

 

[paul_c]

Paul, Ed is asking how does a Catholic get saved? Above, what do you mean by acknowledging faith in Jesus?

There is a set of baptismal promises:

V. Do you reject Satan? R. I do.
V. And all his works? R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises? R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth? R. I do.
V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father? R. I do.
V. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting? R. I do.

When you get baptized what does that do?

It cleanses you of all prior sins, gives you sufficient grace to be saved and makes you a member of the church

What’s a mortal sin?

A mortal sin has three criteria: 1… It involves grave matter, 2) You do it voluntarily and 3) you know it is a sin when you do it.

How would I know that I commtted a mortal sin?

Generally speaking, your conscience would tell you. There isn’t a list of mortal sins because intent is important.

Missing mass on Sunday/Saturday for a Catholic is a mortal sin but it’s not for a Protestant

, This isn’t a question

Aren’t we supposed to confess our sins to God and ask Him for forgiveness?

Jesus gave the Apostles the right to forgive sins. They passed that right to men that they ordained as priests. That is the basis for the sacrament of reconciliation. The priest represent Jesus in this sacrament.

Do penance in reperation ?

Yes, we do penance to make up for the harm our sin has caused.

I take that to mean what the priests tells you to do after confessing?

Yes, the priest will define a suitable penance to make up for the sins you have commited on which his absolution is dependent.

Doesn’t that then become works and nullifies grace?

How would good works nullify grace? Good works demonstrate Grace.

What about other Sacraments are they necessary?

there are 7 sacraments and each has its role and special graces:
Baptism brings you into the faith
the **eucharist provides the grace of God within us
** Confirmation seals us with the gifts of the Holy spirit
Reconciliation allows us to get back in the state of grace after sin
Marriage sanctifies the family
**Holy Orders ** provides special graces and rights for deacons, priests and bishops
Annointing of the sick provides spiritual and physical healing and readies us for death.

Would you please answer each one of my questions by short simple statemets or just a few Scriptures verses . Thanks ED

I hope this helps.

 

[paul_c]

If you read this from top to bottom you will see that people in Samaria heard the word from Philip and were also baptized but did not receive the Spirit. The case in point is Simon also heard and was baptized but did not receive the Spirit, but neither did the Samaritans.

This has been pointed out before but I’ll post it for those that dont check to see what is taught to be true. Peter right after he had the vision about the the unclean ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ …Notice that Peter only has to speak no water no hands. Water baptism was technically for the Jews. The time of the Jews was now officially over. To me this is the end of the 70th week just as Gabriel told Danial. You have to understand the two baptisms to see the whole picture. You just cant see the word baptism and say it involves water every time. ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’] This page is a very good short read that places it all in perspective.
isaiah58.com/questions/q_oftheweek71.html

Quote:
11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

Well, this isn’t really true, is it. If you look at Acts 10:44-48 you see that water baptism of Cornelius and his family was done by peter:

While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Just because Scripture is not explicit on the baptism of these people does not mean that they were not baptized, or atleast that they had a genuine desire to be. And Scripture is quite clear on the fact that water baptism is tied to the atonement of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. You are so desperate to be an Either/Or theologian, that you miss the beauty of Both/And. You even force the Either/Or onto Catholics, claiming that since we claim baptism is required, that we believe it’s the ONLY thing that washes away sins. Your stubbornness blinds you to our efforts to reveal to you that we NEVER have said that it’s the water that’s doing the saving, and forgiving. THAT part is all Christ.

You also think that because we believe in water baptism, that we don’t believe that repentance has anything to do with it. Wrong again.

Here’s another interesting thing. You say it’s ONLY the Blood of Christ. But even YOU don’t really believe that. Because if that were true, then everyone in the world would have their sins forgiven. But you know, as we do, that that is not true. You add repentance to the forgiveness of sins…so clearly it’s not JUST the Blood of Christ that forgives our sins…we have our part to do, correct?

Well, all we’re saying is that to have our sins forgiven, it’s not any ONE thing. Of course, the reality that sins CAN be forgiven, that it is now open for all of us to have our sins forgiven, is due to ONE thing…Christ’s atonement (blood of Christ). BUT, to have forgiveness realized in each of our lives, more is required. You say it’s just repentance, we say baptism and repentance. To be clear, we also say lifelong repentance, because sin is something that easily can separate us from God throughout our lives.

In short, your Catholic upbringing was tragically abbreviated and fragmented, I’m sure partly because of poor catechesis from those charged with teaching you. Somewhere along the line, you missed the relationship between the SOURCE of our salvation, and the EFFECT of our salvation. Two distinct, but inseparable concepts that collectively enlighten one to the fullness of salvation teaching.

Hi SteveGC, I’m not saying it’s Either/Or. I’m saying the BLOOD of Jesus is what atones for our sins. And baptism is necessary to show our repentance, a way of turning to God. From physical birth to spiritual birth per Jn 3:5 “born again” Where we differ is when you say baptism is tied to atonement, I say baptism is tied to repentance not atonement. Your statement about everyone in the world being forgiven by the Blood ? Absolutely Not! I don’t see how you come to that conclusion; however, everyone in the world can be saved by the Blood, if they believe the gospel Yes! I have no problem with your Source/Effect analogy. My Source is the Blood of Jesus and the Effect is the baptism to show my repentance. ED

 

[EdOsiecki]

Well, this isn’t really true, is it. If you look at Acts 10:44-48 you see that water baptism of Cornelius and his family was done by peter:

While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

PaulC Yes, they were baptize by Peter, only to show their repentance and wanting to continue in their new Godly life. Phil 1:6 reads, “----He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus”. They had already received the Holy Sprit by hearing the gospel preached to them. It’s the gospel that saved them not the water ED

 

[SteveGC]

Hi SteveGC, I’m not saying it’s Either/Or. I’m saying the BLOOD of Jesus is what atones for our sins. And baptism is necessary to show our repentance, a way of turning to God. From physical birth to spiritual birth per Jn 3:5 “born again” Where we differ is when you say baptism is tied to atonement, I say baptism is tied to repentance not atonement. ED

I really want to know what you mean by “shows” our repentance. Shows who? God? People? Who are we “showing”, and what use is it to merely “show” repentance? You say baptism is “necessary” to “show”. So, what if we DON’T “show” it through baptism? What then? If it’s “necessary”, then there must be consequence for not doing it.

Baptism is most certainly tied to the atonement AND repentance AND faith AND grace AND all the sacraments. It’s core to Christianity, Ed.
Ed:

Your statement about everyone in the world being forgiven by the Blood ? Absolutely Not! I don’t see how you come to that conclusion; however, everyone in the world can be saved by the Blood, if they believe the gospel Yes!

Ed, please read my posts carefully. I was telling YOU that not everyone’s sins are forgiven by the atonement, only those that accept AND remain in Christ throughout their lives. I was making the point that it’s NOT JUST the blood of Christ that forgives sins. We have our part to do.
Ed:

I have no problem with your Source/Effect analogy. My Source is the Blood of Jesus and the Effect is the baptism to show my repentance.

Um…OK. So we now agree that baptism is efficacious? It is “The Effect”? I’m not sure you meant to say that baptism is the “effect”, atleast not the way I mean it. When I say “effect”, I mean it DOES something, not just SHOWS something. Baptism APPLIES sanctifying grace upon us which originated from the blood sacrifice of our Lord.

I really want to hear about this “shows” concept.

 

[tukfryer]

Well, this isn’t really true, is it. If you look at Acts 10:44-48 you see that water baptism of Cornelius and his family was done by peter:

While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

In this same manner some Protestants today baptize as an outward indication / sign of the work all ready taken place “born again”. No Gentiles were baptized by John the baptist nor did any of the disciples baptize them. You can see right there they were saved the same as the Apostates with the HS. The baptism in context of the time with the separation of Jew and Genital, could be seen as a falling away of the veil between them. The baptism that Peter is calling for could be seen as a symbolic jester between Jew and Gentile.

How do you become more saved after you receive the HS?
What did it provide the Gentiles that had already received the HS by being baptized?
Or is this a tell - tell sign of the discussion to come between Paul and Peter about circumcision?

 

[EdOsiecki]

I really want to know what you mean by “shows” our repentance. Shows who? God? People? Who are we “showing”, and what use is it to merely “show” repentance? You say baptism is “necessary” to “show”. So, what if we DON’T “show” it through baptism? What then? If it’s “necessary”, then there must be consequence for not doing it.

Baptism is most certainly tied to the atonement AND repentance AND faith AND grace AND all the sacraments. It’s core to Christianity, Ed.

Ed, please read my posts carefully. I was telling YOU that not everyone’s sins are forgiven by the atonement, only those that accept AND remain in Christ throughout their lives. I was making the point that it’s NOT JUST the blood of Christ that forgives sins. We have our part to do.

Um…OK. So we now agree that baptism is efficacious? It is “The Effect”? I’m not sure you meant to say that baptism is the “effect”, atleast not the way I mean it. When I say “effect”, I mean it DOES something, not just SHOWS something. Baptism APPLIES sanctifying grace upon us which originated from the blood sacrifice of our Lord.

I really want to hear about this “shows” concept.

Hi SteveGC John the baptist would not baptize the Pharisees Mat 3:8 until they Showed fruits of repentance. I take that to mean there has to be a change in one’s life. If I was a thief stop it, if I used filthy language stop it. If a past sin comes to mind confess it to God immediately. Which also means doing good works. And that’s why I can combine baptism with atonement because if it’s by works it’s no longer grace. John makes it very clear what baptism does, it’s for repentance period. If a person is baptized like the Jehovah’s W. it means zilch! They are on their way to hell for rejecting Christ. But if a person believes in the gospel and wasn’t water baptized, he/she would still be symbolically baptized with Christ and could attain eternal life. The infant baptism, who can’t repent, is what caused this confusion. I say this respectfully, are you aware that once you are water baptized, you become subject to the Pope. No one was subject to Christ. Check out the Edwardo Mortara case. Public Broadcasting Station. ED

 

[ralphy]

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Paul wrote this years later after much time for reflecting on the means to salvation.

What did he mean when he said, “Wash your sins away”?

Don’t forget to add the last part of that verse, after “wash away your sins”, it says “calling on His name”. That is accepting Christ as Savior. Water does not take away sin, only the blood of Christ can take away sin. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

There is a set of baptismal promises:

V. Do you reject Satan? R. I do.
V. And all his works? R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises? R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth? R. I do.
V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father? R. I do.
V. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting? R. I do.

It cleanses you of all prior sins, gives you sufficient grace to be saved and makes you a member of the church

A mortal sin has three criteria: 1… It involves grave matter, 2) You do it voluntarily and 3) you know it is a sin when you do it.

Generally speaking, your conscience would tell you. There isn’t a list of mortal sins because intent is important.

, This isn’t a question

Jesus gave the Apostles the right to forgive sins. They passed that right to men that they ordained as priests. That is the basis for the sacrament of reconciliation. The priest represent Jesus in this sacrament.

Yes, we do penance to make up for the harm our sin has caused.

Yes, the priest will define a suitable penance to make up for the sins you have commited on which his absolution is dependent.

How would good works nullify grace? Good works demonstrate Grace.

there are 7 sacraments and each has its role and special graces:
Baptism brings you into the faith
the **eucharist provides the grace of God within us
** Confirmation seals us with the gifts of the Holy spirit
Reconciliation allows us to get back in the state of grace after sin
Marriage sanctifies the family
**Holy Orders ** provides special graces and rights for deacons, priests and bishops
Annointing of the sick provides spiritual and physical healing and readies us for death.

I hope this helps.

Under the set of “baptism promises”, there are numerous questions to answer. Can you please tell me, (seeing that you believe in infant baptism), how a two week old child answers these questions, Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Well, this isn’t really true, is it. If you look at Acts 10:44-48 you see that water baptism of Cornelius and his family was done by peter:

While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

These people are being baptised after receiving the Holy Spirit, they are saved. Ralph

 

[davidv]

Under the set of “baptism promises”, there are numerous questions to answer. Can you please tell me, (seeing that you believe in infant baptism), how a two week old child answers these questions, Ralph

Their parents and sponsors answer for them and promise to bring them up in the Way of Jesus.

 

[ralphy]

Their parents and sponsors answer for them and promise to bring them up in the Way of Jesus.

Roman catholics will make excuses or come up with something to justify the baptizing of infants.Why don’t you just accept the Bible’s version where there is no infant baptizing. Ralph

 

[SteveGC]

Hi SteveGC John the baptist would not baptize the Pharisees Mat 3:8 until they Showed fruits of repentance. I take that to mean there has to be a change in one’s life. If I was a thief stop it, if I used filthy language stop it. If a past sin comes to mind confess it to God immediately. Which also means doing good works.

And what makes you think Catholics don’t believe this?
Ed:

And that’s why I can combine baptism with atonement because if it’s by works it’s no longer grace.

You’re now confusing me. Before you said baptism is not linked to the atonement, but to repentance. Are you saying that baptism can be linked to the atonement IF there is repentance? If so, I would say, I agree.

But your comment, “if it’s by works it’s no longer grace” still has me confused. Do you think that Catholics feel we are saved by the power of our works? If so, you learned this wrong. Salvation comes by the power of Grace, made possible by the blood sacrifice of Christ. This grace opens a doorway that did not exist before, and is offered to us - and if we accept, it empowers us to walk through it. But we each still have to use our free will in cooperation with this gift to walk through it. Through the light of faith, we see the good works laid out before us by God, we cooperate with them throughout our lives, and remain in Him until our death. If we remain so at our last breath, then we share in His eternal kingdom. Baptism is initial acceptance of this gift of Grace. We are empowered by receiving it. We must still cooperate. We must have faith, obedience, and repentance. The Grace given us at baptism helps us acquire and sustain these things, but it is a two-way street. Our free will co-exists alongside the grace of God throughout our lives.
Ed:

John makes it very clear what baptism does, it’s for repentance period.

Actually, John doesn’t make it as clear as Peter does. John says it’s “for repentance”, but he doesn’t say what baptism DOES. Peter explains that baptism “saves”. But according to you, does baptism even DO anything?
Ed:

If a person is baptized like the Jehovah’s W. it means zilch! They are on their way to hell for rejecting Christ.

Yes, acceptance of Christ and repentance for sins are critical in the salvation equation. Actually, we don’t know who’s on their way to Hell. Only God knows this.
Ed:

But if a person believes in the gospel and wasn’t water baptized, he/she would still be symbolically baptized with Christ and could attain eternal life.

Ok, so come clean. Is baptism necessary or is it not? Earlier you said it was. Now you’re saying it isn’t.
Ed:

The infant baptism, who can’t repent, is what caused this confusion.

Infants are baptized because it empowers them with the Grace of God, and brings them into the family of God. When they are able to reason for themselves, they are obliged to cooperate with this Grace…repent for sins, be obedient to the Word, etc.
Ed:

I say this respectfully, are you aware that once you are water baptized, you become subject to the Pope. No one was subject to Christ.

How are you using the term “subject”? As in “slave”? We are slaves to sin until we cooperate with the Grace of God. At that point, we become slaves to righteousness, which is actually a state of genuine freedom. In this sense, we are indeed subject to Christ, and because He instituted a Church, we are “subject” to Her as well. Of course, if you fail to see The Church as Christ’s own, you will of course feel as though baptized Catholics are enslaved to a man. Pity you learned it this way.
Ed:

Check out the Edwardo Mortara case. Public Broadcasting Station. ED

I’ll do that later and get back to you.