How are we saved?

[Randy_Carson]

Well, we pray for the dead. We do not pray to the dead.

We pray for the dead because they are part of the communion of saints. They can help us though their prayers and we can help them if they are in purgatory.

We only pray to God. We ask the saints for intercession with God but we do not pray to them. Do you understand the distinction?

Paul-

Don’t hedge. Of course we pray to saints…prayer is simply a form of communication with those in the afterlife.

Protestants falsely equate prayer with worship, but even some of their own forms of prayer (thanksgiving, intercession) are not worshipful. Thus, they should understand that even talking with God may not include worship. They need to recognize this and stop yammering about “worshipping dead people.”

Since there are jillions of prayers TO Catholic Saints, you will get buried trying to make this argument. So, just be honest; we pray (talk) to the saints, and we honor them as examples of what God desires all of us to be. We just don’t worship them.

Keep up the good work.

 

[SteveGC]

I have been in Protestant Churches and I have been in a Jewish Christian worship service and I know that anyone who believes in Jesus has the holy spirit. How did they get it if they are not Catholic?

First of all, you don’t know with absolution, ron. No one does. We only speculate. The only way we KNOW for sure is if they were validly baptized, and have not mortally sinned.

But yes, the Holy Spirit works in all people, and I would wager He is indeed with all genuine seekers of The Truth. He is with them even though they are not Catholic because He is God, and He is not confined to the members of His Church…

But…He comes to them THROUGH the Church. You have to think spiritually here, ron. His presence in the world is through The Church, but He is NOT CONFINED TO the Church.

 

[ron77nyc]

First of all, you don’t know with absolution, ron. No one does. We only speculate. The only way we KNOW for sure is if they were validly baptized, and have not mortally sinned.

You can tell when a person has the holy spirit. They have answered prayer and evidence in the way they live and speak. We know they don’t have him if they tell you I don’t believe in Jesus.

But yes, the Holy Spirit works in all people, and I would wager He is indeed with all genuine seekers of The Truth. He is with them even though they are not Catholic because He is God, and He is not confined to the members of His Church…

But…He comes to them THROUGH the Church. You have to think spiritually here, ron. His presence in the world is through The Church, but He is NOT CONFINED TO the Church.

OK. Then we agree on that much.

 

[SteveGC]

You can tell when a person has the holy spirit. They have answered prayer and evidence in the way they live and speak.

Oh, I don’t know about that, ron.

So, people who don’t have prayers “answered” do not have the Spirit? And those that “seem” to have prayers answered could easily just be experiencing coincidence. We can’t presume to know exactly how God answers prayers. It is often not directly related to the request. So we often never know if prayers were “answered” or not. IOW, I don’t think this is a good litmus test for the presence of the Spirit.

I will grant you, however, that those that profess Christ to others and show genuine love for neighbor have the Spirit working with them. I would wager, however, that they were validly baptized as well. That’s speculation on my part. But it has been my observation and experience thus far.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Dan, could you please explain to us how Tertullian, writing around the year 200 A.D., would have known whether or not anything was “fully biblical”, as you put it, when the first (and final, btw) canon of scripture would not be established for another 150 years?

Tertullian had access to what the apostles taught, and he said one should delay baptism until one can understand what he is doing. He would not have said such a thing if it was well-established as a tradition from the apostles.

This one man, who died a Montanist heretic, preferred delaying baptism until someone reached an older age. Who cares? He obviously had many ideas that were deemed to be unorthodox. That’s why he was a heretic!

The reason he became a Montantist is because he wanted to be biblical; he thot the miraculoous gifts should still be in the church.

The Church, having listened to all the arguments from both sides, determined that baptism of infants is valid.

This is infallible and it is final.

Even Paul said, “…if I or an angel …preach a different gospel than what you received, let him be accursed.” (Gal.1:8,9). Are you saying the CC has authority to re-define and change the terms of the gospel??

Now, you really need to get your head around the validity of the development of doctrine.

Did the Apostles understand the papacy as we do? No.
Did the Apostles understand the trinity as we do? No. (Dan says YES)
Did the Apostles understand transubstantiation as we do? No.
Did the Apostles understand the hypostatic union as we do? No.
Did the Apostles understand the canon of scripture as we do? NO!

Again, so what? Doctrine develops.

It is this very Catholic view that is questionable. Thanks for stating it so clearly.

This is not to say that it changes or that it is added to but simply that we see more over time.

Think of an acorn that is planted in the soil. 100 years later it will have become a large tree and it will look very different from what was planted. Yet, it is the same tree. Similarly, you may hold an onion in your hand and begin to peel the layers one at a time. With each layer you reveal something new which was there all along but not visible until some effort was made to uncover it.

Doctrine is like these two analogies

Was it there all along? It certainly looks very different than what was planted.

 

[golfjack]

You know if a majority of Catholic’s believe like most on this forum, you might have some credibility. But, I really don’t believe that a majority of Catholic’s believe in most of it’s doctrines. My Church is made up of many ex-catholics that have been saved by grace through faith.When they hear the true and full Gospel preached, they respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[davidv]

You know if a majority of Catholic’s believe like most on this forum, you might have some credibility. But, I really don’t believe that a majority of Catholic’s believe in most of it’s doctrines. My Church is made up of many ex-catholics that have been saved by grace through faith.When they hear the true and full Gospel preached, they respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Peace, Golfjack

So what. Since when have the rules of the Kingdom of God been determined by popular vote? Its too bad that so many who label themselves as Catholic for are too weak to stand up to persecution for presenting or accepting the truth.

 

[toddvetter]

I think Christ said it best here.

John 20:21-2321 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Lection LXXXVII
6. Then saith Jesus unto them again, Peace be unto you, as Abba Amma hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; preach the Gospel, and announce ye unto all nations; the resurrection of the Son of Man. 7. Teach ye the holy law of love which I have delivered unto you. And whosoever forsake their sins, they are remitted unto them, and whosoever continue in their sins they are retained unto them.
8. Baptize them who believe and repent, bless and anoint them, and offer ye the pure Oblation of the fruits of the earth, which I have appointed unto you for a Memorial of me.

Now to see why these two gospel testimonies differ.

Click this link.

thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/death%20and%20resurrection%20time%20line.pdf

God Bless

 

[twb1621]

Can any of you Roman catholics out there explain to me why you pray to the dead and for the dead. Ralph

yes we can answer that but first you answer the question you refer to here. Or can you not be honest about it?

 

[tukfryer]

And you took a fork in the road that appeared over 1500 years later…

No I was not alive then ether. But I equally discern what the reformers wrote from Luther to Spurgeon. I dont think that all Protestants are saved anymore than I think all Catholics are.

 

[Canto]

Can any of you Roman catholics out there explain to me why you pray to the dead and for the dead. Ralph

We pray for the dead and not to them
The saints in heaven are alive

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the **living. **You therefore do greatly err.

1 Timothy 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men:

Acts 9:40 And they all being put forth, Peter, kneeling down, prayed. And turning to the [dead] body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes and, seeing Peter, sat up.

Matthew 18:10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that **their angels in heaven **always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Revelation 8:3 And another** angel **came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Tertullian had access to what the apostles taught, and he said one should delay baptism until one can understand what he is doing. He would not have said such a thing if it was well-established as a tradition from the apostles.

Do you believe everything Tertullian taught about baptism, or are you taking a portion of what he said that can be taken to support your view?

Tertullian on baptism.

Tertullian

[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life” (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).

The reason he became a Montantist is because he wanted to be biblical; he thot the miraculoous gifts should still be in the church.

Do you also take the Montantist views?

Montanists

Schismatics of the 2nd century, named from Montanus, a Phrygian, who, c.156, shortly after his conversion to Christianity, proclaimed himself a prophet of the “Spirit.” He called the people to gather in the plain of Pepuza, there to live a more spiritual life in preparation for the second coming of Christ which he said was near. In his frenzied ecstasies, he spoke not as God’s messenger, but as God, thus, “I am the Lord God Who dwell in man.” Two women, Maximilla and Prisca, were associated with him and had similar ecstasies. At first the innovations were not doctrinal but disciplinary. The “Spirit” ordered three Lents to be observed, and re-marriage and flight from persecution were forbidden. The greatest danger lay in the claim that the Holy Ghost was now supplementing the revelation of Christ, for this tended to overrule the authority of the bishops. The Asiatic Churches were in a turmoil, but the new prophecies were declared heretical, and the Montanists were excommunicated by local bishops. The news of the so-called “new outpouring of the Spirit” traveled all over the Catholic world, to Rome, Africa and Gaul. Pope Zephyrinus, c.202, definitely withheld letters of communion with the Montanists. In Africa, c.206, Montanism won to its side the great lawyer Tertullian; he taught that there were some unforgivable sins. The Montanists lingered in Africa until c.400, when they handed over themselves and their basilica to Saint Augustine. Little is heard of them in the East after the end of the 4th century. Some critics consider that the Montanistic controversy made the Church the Catholic Church; one would better say that Montanism brought out the innate Catholicity, the unanimity of the Church.

Even Paul said, “…if I or an angel …preach a different gospel than what you received, let him be accursed.” (Gal.1:8,9). Are you saying the CC has authority to re-define and change the terms of the gospel??

You have yet to prove that the Catholic Church “changed” anything. According to the writings of the early Church fathers, your view is different.

It is this very Catholic view that is questionable. Thanks for stating it so clearly.

The problem is, doctrines developed as beliefs that were taken for granted, because everyone believed, became resisted.

Was it there all along? It certainly looks very different than what was planted.

Christ said He would be with His Church until the consummation of the world. Do you doubt that? He said even the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. Do you doubt that? Show scriptures where Christ said there would be gaps in time He would not be with the Church so it could be “corrected” hundreds of years later.

I’ve asked you to provide writings that show the early Christians practiced Christianity the way you are “teaching” it, but you haven’t produced anything prior to the 20th century. Let me qualify that just a bit, you have picked and chose certain things the early Church fathers wrote, that were easily taken out of context to make a point that you felt supported your view, while rejecting the rest of their writings as false.

Provide some historical writings that support your view, and please don’t provide information to “look it up for ourselves”. Doing that appears you don’t want an entire document inspected for some reason. Either a document fully supports your view or it doesn’t, it’s that simple. To be honest, I feel you reject the writings of the early Church fathers fully because they match Catholic doctrines, that’s why you pick and choose select passages.

 

[tukfryer]

Given this illumination, I’ll repeat the part I posted above:

His salvation, if achieved, will have actually been through the Catholic Church, for the Church is the conduit of the Holy Spirit for the entire world, and the Spirit instills the Grace needed for salvation. This is true whether or not the man knows, or accepts, this fact.

Wow Jesus did not even nail the Spirit down like that. Jesus did say that the Father sends the HS. Just which part of the RCC does the Spirit emanate from?

John 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You know if a majority of Catholic’s believe like most on this forum, you might have some credibility. But, I really don’t believe that a majority of Catholic’s believe in most of it’s doctrines. My Church is made up of many ex-catholics that have been saved by grace through faith.When they hear the true and full Gospel preached, they respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

   Peace,    Golfjack

Catholics represent over half the Christians in the world. The rest are represented by thousands of Protestant denominations, all with slight to great differences in doctrines/teachings/beliefs, due to different private interpretations. Where’s the credibility in Protestantism? Which Protestant faith is the correct one?

Mormons like to feed on those who don’t know their faith as well as they should. That’s what it sounds like you’re saying you’ve found to me.

If the “majority” didn’t believe the doctrines of the Catholic faith, Catholics wouldn’t represent over half the Christians worldwide…

Look at a lot of the user signatures here. How many reference the Tiber swim team? Do you know what that means? I can tell you from personal experience. I left Protestantism in 1985 and swam the Tiber, which means I converted to Catholicism. I left a money hungry led Church and started a little honest research into Bible history and Church history because I wanted to be a part of a true Christian Church. I looked at many Protestant Churches, but discovered they did not believe the same things and disagreed with each other. Through prayer, scriptures and research I found the Catholic Church. I was led by the Holy Spirit. No living person evangelized me.

Watch the Journey Home on EWTN or on the web. Many Protestant pastors are converting through the same method as I described above. The Church has grown since it was built over 2000 years ago, and it’s still growing.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Tertullian had access to what the apostles taught, and he said one should delay baptism until one can understand what he is doing. He would not have said such a thing if it was well-established as a tradition from the apostles.

Heh. Yeah, Dan. That explains your “fully biblical” gaff.

Hippolytus had access to Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp who was a student of John. Hippolytus supported infant baptism, right?

The reason he became a Montantist is because he wanted to be biblical; he thot the miraculoous gifts should still be in the church.

Oh, I see. Are you a Montanist?

Even Paul said, “…if I or an angel …preach a different gospel than what you received, let him be accursed.” (Gal.1:8,9). Are you saying the CC has authority to re-define and change the terms of the gospel??

No, Martin Luther, John Calvin and others specialized in this.

It is this very Catholic view that is questionable. Thanks for stating it so clearly.

If only you understood everything that I have told you so clearly.

Was it there all along? It certainly looks very different than what was planted.

You look quite a bit different from the little boy who sat on his mother’s knee so very long ago. Are certain that you are the same?

 

[Randy_Carson]

You know if a majority of Catholic’s believe like most on this forum, you might have some credibility. But, I really don’t believe that a majority of Catholic’s believe in most of it’s doctrines. My Church is made up of many ex-catholics that have been saved by grace through faith.When they hear the true and full Gospel preached, they respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

Peace, Golfjack

That’s so weird…the ranks of the Catholic Church are swelling with former evangelicals who are finally coming home after growing weary of the milk that they are given when what they crave is real spiritual meat.

Take good care of them while you have them…we want them fully “prayed up” when they come back, okay?

 

[twb1621]

The bible only describes the baptism (immersion) of people capable of hearing, believing, and repenting. It does not have to list all the excluded circumstances, e.g. baptizing a corpse, baptizing with spittle, oil or wine, etc. We must do what we KNOW is right and cannot be wrong.

First of all ,please provide the verses you wish to use to support your claims. Second I notice you put your own spin on the interpretations but criticize the CC with false accusations. I also noticed you editted my post so as not to have to respond to ALL the questions I posed. Now if you are going to refer to the Bible and changes that have been made, what do you call the changes made in the Catholic bible that was taken and changed by the protestant reformers?

Yes it does, but not the baptism of an untaught child.

by your standards…

All children are conceived and born innocent and pure, without any sin whatsoever.

Do you claim God was wrong about this? There is no original Sin and scripture does not say anything of the sort?

The Catholic church has changed the gospel to a different gospel that is NO gospel:
1. substitution of pouring for immersion
2. “baptism” of infants and those incapable of repentance
3. teaching infants are conceived in original sin and barred from the presence of God when they die "unbaptized"
4. teaching penance and purgatory are necessary for purification from sin, thus nullifying the blood of Christ

I am reasonably sure you are not attempting to deliberately deceive anyone. However, I realize the cost both in credibility and financially it could bring to you if you were to acknowledge your own misinterpretations of Biblical text. Therefore, I will respond and say without question I can go back through the History of the written word and verify the consistency of the teachings of Christ through the Catholic Church. This is something impossible for you to do considering the changes made far beyond the compilation and institution of the Bible into Christian teachings. From the reformation and beyond.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am reasonably sure you are not attempting to deliberately deceive anyone. However, I realize the cost both in credibility and financially it could bring to you if you were to acknowledge your own misinterpretations of Biblical text. Therefore, I will respond and say without question I can go back through the History of the written word and verify the consistency of the teachings of Christ through the Catholic Church. This is something impossible for you to do considering the changes made far beyond the compilation and institution of the Bible into Christian teachings. From the reformation and beyond.

I suspect that’s why so many Protestants don’t identify the Church they are affliated with. They don’t want to defend their own Church doctrines under inspection from Catholics.

 

[twb1621]

The Catholic church has changed the gospel to a different gospel that is NO gospel:
1. substitution of pouring for immersion
2. “baptism” of infants and those incapable of repentance
3. teaching infants are conceived in original sin and barred from the presence of God when they die "unbaptized"
4. teaching penance and purgatory are necessary for purification from sin, thus nullifying the blood of Christ

So you attempt distortion of the teachings but refuse to respond to a great deal of Biblical text even though you claim to support your responses by the Bible? This is a twisted response. Show credibility in your accusations.
What do you claim of the following?

Ephesians CH 4; 1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, 3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: 4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore, it says: “He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men.” 9 What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth? 10 The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. 11 **And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, **13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. 15 Rather, **living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ, **16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body’s growth and builds itself up in love.

Ephesians CH 1; 18 May the eyes of (your) hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of his power for us who believe, in accord with the exercise of his great might, 20 which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens, 21 far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things beneath his feet **and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. **

No protestant faith follows the complete teachings of the Church founded by Christ and if they did they would not be protestant. If we base our answer on scripture, unless their beliefs where the same as those teachings of the True Church founded by Christ, they certainly would not be “one Body” in the sense of teachings and beliefs.

notice the Word says specifically; "…5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all,"

Notice It nowhere refers to subsidiaries or altered derivatives of that one Faith but it does go on to say beware of the wolves… Do you need a reference to the verses specifically warning of those who would leave the Church or claim to be of Christ but distort His teachings and deceive many… Yet so many do not consider or question those “mere men” who 1500 years after the inception of the Holy Bible altered the text and books contained in the Bible and no one sees the oddity of those who would say certain sacraments provided by God are unnecessary or invalid and the Bible can be self taught. Now who would Benefit from such changes?

Why do you blanketly criticize those responsible for the origin of the Holy Bible and what Faith do you practice?

 

[SteveGC]

Wow Jesus did not even nail the Spirit down like that. Jesus did say that the Father sends the HS.

Actually, He did “nail it down like that”. When He breathed on the 12, it was nailed down. I never said it wasn’t the Father who sent the Spirit. I said He sent it to The Church. The Church started with the 12.

tukfryer:

Just which part of the RCC does the Spirit emanate from?

The part from which Truth is protected and promulgated, and from which grace-filled sacraments are offered.

tukfryer:

John 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

This is not talking about where the Spirit comes from (it’s origins). It’s talking about the mysterious promptings of the Holy Spirit and how He influences the lives of those He touches.