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Randy_Carson
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:clapping:
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tukfryer
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No the reason I bring it up is because it is necessity to fully understand the NT you have to know when God had fulfilled His promise to Israel. Marking the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new. Notice how God has weaved completed salvation to the Jews for 3.5 years then the Gentiles at the end of Daniels last 70th week. Under the old covenant God threw Jesus offered complete salvation threw water baptism (preparation) and then the baptism of the HS. [The mark of the HS is salvation.] Technically salvation by grace alone was also offered Jews after the HS at Pentecost. Do you see the wisdom / fairness in God first offering the complete package to the Jews first? Just as God promised Abram I will make you a great Nation, and in you all the family’s of the earth shall be blessed. The second half of the 70th week Jews officially had the complete promise including the HS. The Apostles did not go unto the Gentiles until
- Peter recieved his vision of the unclean.
- Paul was called to take the message to them also.
- Stephens stoning I believe is the heavenly clock if you will officially marking the completion of the Promise to Israel. 1 and 2 took place shortly after this point.
It did for the Jews alone. The time Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city. Of the Jews was yet completed. Salvation is of the Jews “first singularly” to fulfill the Promise. Why would God use Israel and at the moment salvation comes God gives it to the neighbors at the same time. Plus the HS had not been pored out at the point of the cross. The cross does complete the Law and the sacrifice had been made with the unblemished Jesus. But it does not mark the end of the time of the Jewish nation yet. I like to reference Mat as the only other place we see the 7 times 70 (weeks) mentioned.
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
Very deep meaning in Jesus reply, over looked by many. He is quoting Danial in reference to Gods grace on Israel. Peter is asking about a Jewish man / brother, Jesus answers in the person of God addressing the whole nations grace until the promise is fulfilled.
There are other reasons this time line is true. It only fits here for one. Gabriel was specific about it also.
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
There are 3 historic letters about the command to rebuild the temple. All within a few years of one another. One fits the starting point of the 70 weeks, of the prophesy as I described. I am running on now and this is not a prophesy thread. This is whole other learning experience with secular historian pitfalls.
If we place the 70th week beginning at the birth nothing fits. And what was going on 3.5 years before Jesus was baptized? that would end the time of the Jews at the cross. He was cut off in the midst of the week verse 9:26 Danial, read it again it only fits one way. I will end by saying Danial and Gabriel were very specific 70 weeks not 69 weeks and then a 2000 year break then the 70th last week.
Not 69.5 weeks and then a gap again. Understanding this prophesy is key to understand NT scripture including Rev.
I do recognize water baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit CAN bring you the graces of the Holy spirit. But lets not strain at gnats and swallow camels.
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Canto
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water AND Spirit
John 3:5
word OR epislte
2 Thes 2:15
charity AND faith
Phlm 1:5, 1 Thes 5:8
John 3:5
word OR epislte
2 Thes 2:15
charity AND faith
Phlm 1:5, 1 Thes 5:8
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EdOsiecki
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Prodigal_Son1
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I’m not sure what you’re saying we need to do there Ed. Do you want to clarify it for us?
As for the King James Bible Ed, I don’t trust it to be honest.
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SteveGC
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Ed,
What if you don’t get baptized? Does it matter if you do or don’t?
Is it like your version of the Lord’s Supper? You’ll get around to it once in awhile, whenever it’s convenient for your congregation, but if we don’t ever do it, oh well? It’s only symbolic anyway, it doesn’t really mean anything? Is baptism like that for you too?
Is it a “should” do thing? or a “must” do thing? And again, what consequence is there for NOT doing it?
By doing it, are you “showing” your repentance to the Lord? or to yourself? or to your congregation? All of the above? If repentance is of the heart, which I believe too, and God sees the heart, what use is baptism for you? You’re “showing” something that God already sees, no?
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EdOsiecki
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Randy I stand by my word “imputed”= means Christ’s righteousness is credited to me. If I were infused, should I sin, do I become uninfused? Let the playing of words stop here. Yes, we are to pray for one another while here on earth and to the Father in heaven through Jesus. The angels rejoice when a sinner gets saved. The Bible tells us nothing about the saints, shoudn’t they rejoice too? Pope Paul IV banned many books including the Bible. The ban was lifted in 1964. per “Secrets Of The Inquisitions” Public Broadcasting Station.
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Canto
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The Bible (inclusive of all translations) was NEVER, repeat NEVER banned by the Catholic Church.
“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all.” - Martin Luther, commentary on St John
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paul_c
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Ed, you need to stop listening to anti-Catholic propaganda. Furthermore, you need to stop spreading it. The Church’s positions are well documented. If they had banned the bible, there would be a very public document saying so, or else how would they have made the ban effective. As it is, such a charge is completely ludicrous. The Bible is and always has been a teaching tool of the Catholic church. That’s why it was created. And yes, that creation was divinely inspired. Just another help from the Holy Spirit to the body of Christ.
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ralphy
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Randy, the mass is done on a daily basis, and it is called the “sacrifice” of the mass. So it stands to reason that Christ is scarificed every day in the RCC, right?. I also pray for people, but I do not pray to saints or other people (as they are dead and cannot hear my prayers). I pray only to God through Jesus as instructed in His Word. When I was a kid going to the RCC, I did not see a bible except on the alter, no home that I know of had a bible, we were told to follow the catechism and that was all. I was informed at the time that only the hierarchy in the church could interpret the bible, so we had to leave it alone. I can now see that this gave the church all the power and authority over the people. When I reached the point to read the bible myself, I found out that most of the things I was taught in the RCC were not true, an as a result I left the RCC and found out through scripture how find eternal life in heaven. Ralph
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ralphy
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Is there a relationship between what I said and what you are saying here. Ralph
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paul_c
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Ralph,
My experience in Catholicism is far different than yours. I’ve personally been reading the bi ble daily since 1973, when I was 13 and given a copy in my CCD class. I was taught the catholic interpretation of the Bible through the homilies at mass. If you’ve been a catholic, who do you think that Catholic’s sacrifice Jesus at every mass? They celebrate his sacrifice every day…Its certainly your option to pray to anyone you want. There is no reason you HAVE to pray to others for intercession. If you don’t think that’s helpful, don’t do it. As for finding our that what is taught in the Catholic Church is false, how did you come to that conclusion. Did you base that on your own interpretations or someone elses? If its someone elses, what made them more believable that the Catholic Church.
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SteveGC
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Wrong. Christ’s ONE sacrifice is presented (not repeated) continually (daily) throughout the entire world, strengthening the faithful through the Grace emanating from it.
How do you know they can’t hear you? Are you limiting sensory perception to those with human bodies only? Where do you find in the Bible that those whose earthly bodies have died are no longer able to have sensory experiences from their place in heaven? You certainly do limit the supernatural realm substantially, ralph. Seems odd to me that you believe those with God in heaven are cut-off from knowledge of life on earth.
No, you worship only God through Jesus as instructed in His Word, like we all do. There’s nothing limiting your prayers (communication) to others in heaven.
And did The Church directly tell you “no home will have a Bible”? Or was it that your family just did not have one in the home? Can you show us evidence that The Church prohibited Bibles in the home?
And you were informed correctly.
You didn’t have to leave it alone, ralph. You had to refrain from interpreting it privately, outside of the framework of the deposit of faith. This was for your protection, not for suppression of your spirituality or control of your mind. You’re like the kid who breaks from their mother’s grip on the sidewalk because you ‘gotta be you’, running out onto the road and into oncoming traffic. Was she trying to stifle your freedom? No, she was keeping you alive. Such is the life of protestants running from the Church.
Actually ralph, what you ‘found out’ is the “feel good” half-truths of those people who fled the protection of The Church before you. They taught you what they thought the Bible teaches, and you bought it, hook line and sinker, because the Bible can be made to say whatever anyone wants to make it say. They made it say something you liked the sound of, and they showed you verses out of context which “supported” that theology. And well, now here you are…trying to do the same thing with us that they did to you. We’re not takin’ that bait, ralph. You’ll have to fish somewhere else.
Better yet…
If you listen closely, ralph…your Mother is calling you back to the sidewalk, where it’s safe.
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ralphy
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The catechism states that “the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass”. Jesus says that there is no more sacrifice for sin. I do not pray to “anyone” I feel like, for Jesus also said that," no one comes to the Father except through Me", so I go directly to God in prayer, through Jesus Christ. I came to the conclusion that the teaching of the RCC was wrong because the word of God (the bible) taught something else, and we will be judged by the word of God in the end. Ralph
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SteveGC
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Does it use the word repeat in the Catechism?
per·pet·u·ate (pr-pch-t)
tr.v. per·pet·u·at·ed, per·pet·u·at·ing, per·pet·u·ates
- To prolong the existence of; cause to be remembered
v. re·peat·ed, re·peat·ing, re·peats v.tr.
- To do, experience, or produce again: repeat past successes.
Here are some synonyms for “perpetuate”. Not one of them suggests “repetition”
*Main Entry: perpetuate
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: keep going
Synonyms: bolster, conserve, continue, eternalize, eternize, immortalize, keep, keep alive, keep in existence, keep up, maintain, preserve, secure, support, sustain *
Lets look deeper into the CCC:
ralph, we’re not “coming to the Father” through the saints we pray (talk) to. We’re asking for their intercessory prayers for us. If you’re Catholic, this is an instrument of spiritual growth and enrichment that is available to you. It is not a doctrinal necessity. It is a method of prayer to God. When Jesus proclaimed “no one comes to the Father except through me”, He didn’t mean, “don’t pray for one another and intercede on behalf of one another”. He meant “salvation is through MY teaching, MY resurrection, and faith and obedience to ME”. It is not talking about prayer.
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golfjack
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What a bunch of double talk from Catholics about the mass.
Peace, Golfjack
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SteveGC
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ralphy
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I have to refute the statement that " the bible is and always has been a teaching tool of the RCC". When I was a young person in the RCC the bible was never used in teaching at all, it was always the “catechism”, which we had to learn from, and accept it as being the truth. I do not know of anyone at that time who owned a bible, and certainly ever read one. Ralph
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davidv
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What makes your experience true for all Catholics?
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ralphy
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Where did you get that interpretation from. Jesus made it quite clear when he said “no one comes to the Father but by Me”. I find that needs no interpretation, it’s very clear, EVERYTHING which goes to the Father must go through Christ.Amen. Ralph
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